From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-28 16:54:20
|
Anyone here who uses Eterm on SuSE might want to know about this. If you think their reasoning sucks as much as I do, e-mail them and let them know. Michael ----- Forwarded message from Heiko Rommel <ro...@su...> ----- Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:28:20 +0200 (CEST) From: Heiko Rommel <ro...@su...> To: Michael Jennings <me...@ka...> Subject: Re: support for UTF-8 in Eterm Hello Michael, it is only fair to let you know that Eterm has been dropped from future SUSE distributions, mainly because - I will be reassigned to different tasks and I was unable to find a maintainer - Eterm still has no working support for UTF-8 - we have too many terminal emulators in the SUSE distributions (aterm, wterm, mlterm, ...) and in comparision Eterm falls behind in terms of developement progress -- Heiko Rommel ro...@su... SUSE Linux AG, Maxfeldstr. 5, D-90409 Nuernberg T: +49 (0) 911 74053 0 F: +49 (0) 911 741 77 55 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Backstreet Boys? Why would you wanna do that? Didn't you see New Kids on the Block? Don't you know how this movie's gonna end? I wanna know who's gonna be the 'bad' Backstreet Boy. Who's gonna get Britney Spears pregnant?" -- Chris Rock, 1999 MTV VMA |
From: Mark R. B. <mor...@ea...> - 2004-06-28 17:01:17
|
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 17:54, Michael Jennings wrote: > Anyone here who uses Eterm on SuSE might want to know about this. If > you think their reasoning sucks as much as I do, e-mail them and let > them know. Sorry, but I can see their point. No UTF-8, no tabs. Just unable to compete with the current state of gnome-terminal, for one. I switched over a year ago and see no reason to go back. If E as a total package was still seen as a major-league environment, rather than as a better WM for Gnome or KDE, then ETerm might make sense. But until E0.17 is ready, I don't see much point in it. Sorry, -- o o mailto:Mor...@ea... /v\ark R. Bowyer http://mark.thebowyers.me.uk Mark.Bowyer@Sun.COM `-' --------------------------------------- /"\ ...fingerprint = 7924 9E9E 7B91 225E B065 \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign 1024D/15140DC1 39D0 551D ABE6 1514 0DC1 X Against HTML Mail -------------------------------------------- / \ I went down the street to the 24-hour grocery. When I got there, the guy was locking the front door. I said, "Hey, the sign says you're open 24 hours." He said, "Yes, but not in a row." |
From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-28 17:05:54
|
On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 18:01:01 (+0100), Mark R. Bowyer wrote: > Sorry, but I can see their point. No UTF-8, no tabs. Incorrect. First off, aterm and wterm don't have tabs either. Secondly, Eterm DOES HAVE TABS. As for UTF-8, I don't own or run a single system where I haven't forceably changed the default locale from UTF-8 back to C, and it has nothing to do with lack of support in Eterm. UTF-8 has proven to be nothing but a royal pain in the ass across the board. > Just unable to compete with the current state of gnome-terminal, for > one. Absurd. Other than GUI-based configuration and UTF-8, there's nothing gnome-terminal offers over Eterm. Unless you're one of those people who likes to be able to get coffee while you wait for your terminal to scroll. > I switched over a year ago and see no reason to go back. If E as a > total package was still seen as a major-league environment, rather > than as a better WM for Gnome or KDE, then ETerm might make sense. > But until E0.17 is ready, I don't see much point in it. Thank you for sharing Sun's opinion. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender." -- G'Kar, Babylon 5 |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-28 18:35:44
|
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:05:52 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 18:01:01 (+0100), > Mark R. Bowyer wrote: > > > Sorry, but I can see their point. No UTF-8, no tabs. > > Incorrect. First off, aterm and wterm don't have tabs either. > Secondly, Eterm DOES HAVE TABS. > > As for UTF-8, I don't own or run a single system where I haven't > forceably changed the default locale from UTF-8 back to C, and it has > nothing to do with lack of support in Eterm. UTF-8 has proven to be > nothing but a royal pain in the ass across the board. > Just because YOU don't like or need UTF-8 doesn't mean others don't want or need it. I frequently use Yudit to type up quick notes because it does support the full Unicode range of characters. It would be nice to do the same in vim instead. Be nice to see something other than: \u0633\u0644\u0627\u0645 \u0639\u0644\u064a\u0643\u0645 Brad |
From: Linux <li...@20...> - 2004-07-02 22:50:00
|
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:05:52 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote the words: > Incorrect. First off, aterm and wterm don't have tabs either. > Secondly, Eterm DOES HAVE TABS. Eterm has tabs? I glanced thru the menu & the man page, but evidently missed something. Would you tell us how to get the tabs? Much thanks. Adrian -- On The Fly Photography http://204EastSouth.com -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.12 GAT d-@ s: a C++ UL++ L++(+++) P E- W++ !N o? K- w--- M+ PS+++ PE+++ Y+ PGP t++@ 5+++ X++ R+@ tv-- b++ DI++++ D+ G e+ h+ r y++ ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ |
From: Mark R. B. <mor...@ea...> - 2004-06-28 17:15:31
|
On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 18:05, Michael Jennings wrote: > Incorrect. First off, aterm and wterm don't have tabs either. > Secondly, Eterm DOES HAVE TABS. Well, that shows how long it's been since I tried it. But I switched to gnome-terminal when ETerm (a) didn't have tabs, and (b) was enough of a pain to compile and install on Solaris that I didn't do it often anyway. Gnome-terminal had tabs and went translucent, and quite honestly, that was enough for me. > Absurd. Other than GUI-based configuration and UTF-8, there's nothing > gnome-terminal offers over Eterm. Unless you're one of those people > who likes to be able to get coffee while you wait for your terminal to > scroll. It's there already. That's a big advantage on non-Linux platforms - and some Linux platforms now, too. And it scrolls just fine thanks. > Thank you for sharing Sun's opinion. Oh dear, Micheal. You've become a really snotty little wanker in the last few years, haven't you? And that isn't Sun's opinion, either. Ta, -- o o mailto:Mor...@ea... /v\ark R. Bowyer http://mark.thebowyers.me.uk `-' --------------------------------------- /"\ ...fingerprint = 7924 9E9E 7B91 225E B065 \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign 1024D/15140DC1 39D0 551D ABE6 1514 0DC1 X Against HTML Mail -------------------------------------------- / \ If you write the word "monkey" a million times, do you start to think you're Shakespeare? |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-28 18:28:47
|
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:54:18 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > Anyone here who uses Eterm on SuSE might want to know about this. If > you think their reasoning sucks as much as I do, e-mail them and let > them know. > > > ----- Forwarded message from Heiko Rommel <ro...@su...> ----- > it is only fair to let you know that Eterm has been dropped from > future SUSE distributions, mainly because > > - I will be reassigned to different tasks and I was unable to find a > maintainer- Eterm still has no working support for UTF-8 > - we have too many terminal emulators in the SUSE distributions > (aterm, wterm, > mlterm, ...) and in comparision Eterm falls behind in terms of > developement progress > I use Eterm in Slackware which dropped enlightenment and Eterm long ago. I can see SUSE's point. More and more distros are supporting UTF-8 and need UTF-8 support in their terminal emulators. Distros are not just for western European languages anymore. People do want to type in Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, etc. Eterm development does seem a bit stagnant. Is CVS still unchanged since the 0.9.2 release last year? That at least is the implication on www.eterm.org. ((I see browsing cvs that there have been a few changes, one on June 25th, one in May, a few in April, but it does seem like development is not really active)) Perhaps you need to express to them how Eterm is better than the xTerms they are keeping. Of course that may be hard without UTF-8 support. Brad |
From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-28 18:36:13
|
On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 14:28:39 (-0400), Bradley Reed wrote: > I use Eterm in Slackware which dropped enlightenment and Eterm long ago. Well, Slackware's a whole different ballgame. I'll spare you my Slackware rant. :-) > I can see SUSE's point. More and more distros are supporting UTF-8 > and need UTF-8 support in their terminal emulators. Distros are not > just for western European languages anymore. People do want to type > in Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, etc. I understand that. Of course, Eterm has supported Japanese, Chinese, and Korean for some time now. Just not UTF-8. I don't really know much about UTF-8 and iconv(). A few people have offered to write a patch, but no one actually has. So any help is greatly appreciated! > Eterm development does seem a bit stagnant. Is CVS still unchanged > since the 0.9.2 release last year? That at least is the implication > on www.eterm.org. I do need to update that damned box. :( > ((I see browsing cvs that there have been a few changes, one on June > 25th, one in May, a few in April, but it does seem like development > is not really active)) My attention has been focused more on work, cAos, and Mezzanine. 0.9.3 will be out real soon though. > Perhaps you need to express to them how Eterm is better than the > xTerms they are keeping. Of course that may be hard without UTF-8 > support. Patches welcome! Requested, in fact! Even begged for! :) Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "You can accomplish much if you don't care who gets the credit." -- Ronald Reagan |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-28 19:47:21
|
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:36:11 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 14:28:39 (-0400), > Bradley Reed wrote: > > > I use Eterm in Slackware which dropped enlightenment and Eterm long > > ago. > > Well, Slackware's a whole different ballgame. I'll spare you my > Slackware rant. :-) I'd like to persuade Patrick V. to get enlightenment and Eterm back in Slackware. Now that libast doesn't seem to conflict with the 'other libast used by Korn Shell" and now that the size of the enlightenment base package is 10% of its previous size, it may be worth a shot. I'd be curious to hear your rant, if for no other reason than to beef up my proposal to Pat. > > I can see SUSE's point. More and more distros are supporting UTF-8 > > and need UTF-8 support in their terminal emulators. Distros are not > > just for western European languages anymore. People do want to type > > in Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, etc. > > I understand that. Of course, Eterm has supported Japanese, Chinese, > and Korean for some time now. Just not UTF-8. > > I don't really know much about UTF-8 and iconv(). A few people have > offered to write a patch, but no one actually has. So any help is > greatly appreciated! Honestly, I didn't know Eterm supported CJK. I only know Arabic, Farsi, some Pashto, and bits of Urdu and know I have had only partial success typing them. This isn't Eterm's fault necessarily, Unicode itself doesn't support Pashto fully, hence my hacked Yudit. > My attention has been focused more on work, cAos, and Mezzanine. > 0.9.3 will be out real soon though. I definitely understand other priorities. The amount of code I've written since my daughter was born is near zero. I look forward to Eterm 0.9.3! > Patches welcome! Requested, in fact! Even begged for! :) Understood! Hopefully I can make time in the future, although I still have a lot to learn about UTF-8 and iconv() too. Right now though, baby comes first. :-) Brad |
From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-28 20:20:40
|
On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 15:47:15 (-0400), Bradley Reed wrote: > I'd like to persuade Patrick V. to get enlightenment and Eterm back > in Slackware. Now that libast doesn't seem to conflict with the > 'other libast used by Korn Shell" and now that the size of the > enlightenment base package is 10% of its previous size, it may be > worth a shot. Good luck. :-) > I'd be curious to hear your rant, if for no other reason than to > beef up my proposal to Pat. There's nothing like that in it. Basically my beef is that Slackware no longer has a niche. LFS and Gentoo are the hands-on distros, and RedHat and Debian are the package-based distros. IMHO, Slackware was cool in 1995 but has since lost its spiffitude. :) > Honestly, I didn't know Eterm supported CJK. I only know Arabic, > Farsi, some Pashto, and bits of Urdu and know I have had only > partial success typing them. This isn't Eterm's fault necessarily, > Unicode itself doesn't support Pashto fully, hence my hacked Yudit. I obviously don't use the non-ISO-8859 stuff very often, but I'm told Eterm supports Asian and Cyrillic quite well. > Understood! Hopefully I can make time in the future, although I > still have a lot to learn about UTF-8 and iconv() too. Right now > though, baby comes first. :-) Of course. :-) If nothing else, by the time I rewrite much of the code for 0.10, it'll support any old encoding people want. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "This is how the world ends: swallowed in fire, but not in darkness. You will live on. The voice of all our ancestors, the voice of our fathers and our mothers to the last generation. We created the world we think you would have wished for us, and now we leave the cradle for the last time." -- Babylon Five |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-28 22:17:52
|
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:20:38 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > There's nothing like that in it. Basically my beef is that Slackware > no longer has a niche. LFS and Gentoo are the hands-on distros, and > RedHat and Debian are the package-based distros. IMHO, Slackware was > cool in 1995 but has since lost its spiffitude. :) Of course I have to disagree. :) I think Slackware is perfect for the control-freak who wants to get his system up and running quickly. The small selection of packages are rock-solid, and the distro is extremely stable. LFS is for the control-freak who doesn't mind spending a month to get his system compiled and fine-tuned. Gentoo is for the person who wants to claim his system is 'fastest 'cuz he compiled everything himself'. Gentoo, IMNSHO, is only for people with wide-band internet connections and lots of time to waste compiling everything per someone else's emerge scripts. Redhat/Fedora, Debian and all other dependency-checking package-based distros have the annoying problem of claiming to know your system better than you do. God forbid you ever compile something from source without packaging it and using the package-manager to install it. I detest package managers always insisting I need to downgrade my system or install totally irrelevant packages to support imaginary 'dependancies'. I recall trying to install a graphics viewer once when I was on Mandrake several years ago and rpm or urpmi wanted me to install all of gnome, kde, and change versions of XFree86 to support 'dependancies', over dial-up of course. Worked fine when self-compiled. Slackware is perfect for me. The software author's README, INSTALL, or webpage generally tells me what the dependancies are. 'ldd' works for necessary non-opensource binaries. I am in control of what gets installed and uninstalled, not some rpm, apt-get, urpmi, emerge, etc. script. Of course, I also spend a lot of time compiling add-ons to slackware. My directory of self-compiled packages is now 636MB. Slackware is also rather unique, although one could make LFS similarly, in its BSD-style boot up scripts. We have no /etc/init.d or /etc/rc.d/rc#.d, we have no runlevel 5 for that matter. I find the simplified boot-up much quicker and easier to modify for my needs. My two cents. :) Brad |
From: Morten N. <mo...@ni...> - 2004-06-29 06:32:11
Attachments:
smime.p7s
|
Bradley Reed wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:20:38 -0400 > Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > > >> There's nothing like that in it. Basically my beef is that Slackware >> no longer has a niche. LFS and Gentoo are the hands-on distros, and >> RedHat and Debian are the package-based distros. IMHO, Slackware was >> cool in 1995 but has since lost its spiffitude. :) > > Of course I have to disagree. :) I think Slackware is perfect for the > control-freak who wants to get his system up and running quickly. The > small selection of packages are rock-solid, and the distro is extremely > stable. Exactly the reason I use Trustix Secure Linux on my desktops. -- Dr. P |
From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-29 15:21:23
|
On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 18:16:13 (-0400), Bradley Reed wrote: > Of course I have to disagree. :) No, really? I never would've expected that.... ;-) > I think Slackware is perfect for the control-freak who wants to get > his system up and running quickly. The small selection of packages > are rock-solid, and the distro is extremely stable. To be fair, a number of other distributions offer the same. (Trustix was, I believe, already mentioned.) You might also be interested in cAos (www.caosity.org). The entirely-self-hosting core OS weighs in at 512MB (most of which is stuff needed to build it) and will have a maintenance lifetime of over 5 years. > LFS is for the control-freak who doesn't mind spending a month to > get his system compiled and fine-tuned. Most people I've encountered who use it are doing so to learn, much like those who chose Slackware over RH/Debian. > Gentoo is for the person who wants to claim his system is 'fastest > 'cuz he compiled everything himself'. Gentoo, IMNSHO, is only for > people with wide-band internet connections and lots of time to waste > compiling everything per someone else's emerge scripts. Can't argue with you there. Nevertheless, it is a very hands-on distribution. As it happens, I encounter far more obnoxious Gentoo users these days than I do Slackware users. If current and future Slackware releases don't cause me the amounts of frustration and stress the previous ones did, then by all means, use it. I just get fed up with people who don't understand how their distribution functions and yet expect us (e.g., #E) to solve their problems. Personally, I don't care what people use as long as they know what they're doing. It's the people whose clue is in short supply and who chose a hands-on distribution anyway that annoy me. Given what I've seen from you on this list, you are certainly not in that category. > Redhat/Fedora, Debian and all other dependency-checking > package-based distros have the annoying problem of claiming to know > your system better than you do. God forbid you ever compile > something from source without packaging it and using the > package-manager to install it. I detest package managers always > insisting I need to downgrade my system or install totally > irrelevant packages to support imaginary 'dependancies'. I agree, which is why I specify few (if any) package dependencies in the packages I...package. (Wow, talk about redundant redundancy....) I would like to point out, though, that at least RPM has support for filesystem-level dependencies, like requiring /usr/bin/enlightenment rather than the "enlightenment" package name. > Slackware is also rather unique, although one could make LFS > similarly, in its BSD-style boot up scripts. We have no /etc/init.d > or /etc/rc.d/rc#.d, we have no runlevel 5 for that matter. I find > the simplified boot-up much quicker and easier to modify for my > needs. Well, the SysV init is much cleaner, IMHO, and is far more package- friendly. It's certainly not ideal, though, and has some rather painful issues. Lesser of two evils is a very subjective conclusion. :) Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Swiss have an interesting army. Five hundred years without a war. Pretty impressive. Also pretty lucky for them. Ever see that little Swiss Army knife they have to fight with? Not much of a weapon there. Corkscrews. Bottle openers. 'Come on, buddy, let's go. You get past me, the guy in back of me, he's got a spoon. Back off. I've got the toe clippers right here.' " -- Jerry Seinfeld |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-29 18:15:46
|
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:21:18 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > On Monday, 28 June 2004, at 18:16:13 (-0400), > Bradley Reed wrote: > > > LFS is for the control-freak who doesn't mind spending a month to > > get his system compiled and fine-tuned. > > Most people I've encountered who use it are doing so to learn, much > like those who chose Slackware over RH/Debian. If you use a distro like LFS, Slackware, or even Gentoo you definitely have to want to learn about your system. In the end though, I feel someone that has taken the time to learn their system, whatever it is, will have far fewer problems than someone who trusts in third-party scripts or packaging systems to maintain their system. > As it happens, I encounter far more obnoxious Gentoo users these days > than I do Slackware users. If current and future Slackware releases > don't cause me the amounts of frustration and stress the previous > ones did, then by all means, use it. I just get fed up with people > who don't understand how their distribution functions and yet expect > us (e.g., #E) to solve their problems. Hang out on alt.os.linux.slackware some and you might meet a few obnoxious Slackware users, but probably less than a few years ago. Gentoo fans are generally much more vocal though, I agree. > Personally, I don't care what people use as long as they know what > they're doing. It's the people whose clue is in short supply and who > chose a hands-on distribution anyway that annoy me. Given what I've > seen from you on this list, you are certainly not in that category. I've asked a few bone-headed questions here I wish I could have retracted as soon as I hit the send key. :) Hopefully as time goes on I will ask even fewer. > I would like to point out, though, that at least RPM has support for > filesystem-level dependencies, like requiring /usr/bin/enlightenment > rather than the "enlightenment" package name. I was not aware of that, and that does seem to be an improvement over what I remember, but does it break if enlightenment is in /usr/local/bin/? > > Slackware is also rather unique, although one could make LFS > > similarly, in its BSD-style boot up scripts. We have no /etc/init.d > > or /etc/rc.d/rc#.d, we have no runlevel 5 for that matter. I find > > the simplified boot-up much quicker and easier to modify for my > > needs. > > Well, the SysV init is much cleaner, IMHO, and is far more package- > friendly. It's certainly not ideal, though, and has some rather > painful issues. Lesser of two evils is a very subjective > conclusion. :) Technically Slackware's init scripts are still SysV, but instead of having numerous copies and symlinks of the init scripts in separate directories for each run level, all the init scripts are in one directory. I find it simpler, but to each his own. Brad |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-29 20:51:38
|
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Shish <shi...@ya...> wrote: > Also, I'm on dialup, and it works fine. The whole "time to waste" > seems odd too- what does *your* computer do while you sleep? I would > guess that for most people, not something too productive... > When I first attempted to install Gentoo I was on Mandrake 8.2/9.0 or something. I had a winmodem in my laptop which worked fine in Mandrake, but at that time I had no clue as to how I could get the Gentoo installation to load a lt_modem kernel module. For me, at that time I found the attempt to install Gentoo overly frustrating. I'm sure if I had had a real modem the install would have been much more satisfying. Usually when I'm sleeping my computer is taking part in the Great Internet Mersenne Prime Search (GIMPS) http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm > > compiling everything per someone else's emerge scripts > > So do you use someone else's ./configure && make && make install, or > do you do things your own way? :p Portage is basically C/M/MI, but > with dependancy tracking built in (and some other odd bits) Yes, of course I use the software author's configure scripts, I figure they know how to build their software. But I never simply ./configure && make && make install. What if the program sucks and I want to remove it? What if the default install spreads config files across a dozen directories? At the very minimum, ie. when I'm lazy, I'll ./configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc --localstatedir=/var (or /var/log). Then I'll make; create a description-pak file; su; checkinstall. If I'm less lazy, I'll also make a doc-pak directory first. Usually I'll skip the checkinstall, make install DESTDIR=/tmp/something; cd /tmp/something; check permissions, gzip man pages, ensure doc files are where I want them, make a slack-desc file, strip binaries if needed, etc. Then makepkg. Then install my newly built package. > Once the Immense Shiny Thing that is E17 is released, and all the > shiny thing collectors flock to it, what are you going to do about the > reputation of E being no more than a shiny toy for n00bs? I hope that day comes soon...I'll deal with the annoyance then. :) > > Runlevels > > Coming from SuSE / Mandrake / RedHat, I'm not sure of how BSD does > boot scripts, but I must say that Gentoo handles them very nicely > (Yeah, I'm looking into BSD to see how that works already...) > > The runlevels are more meta-runlevels, as there's no link to init - > and they're named, so you can do things like "rc offline" to go into > the "offline" runlevel, which figures service dependancies (calculated > dependancies are much nicer than giving each /etc/rc/ link a number > and hoping you got them in the right order) and takes down the > network-dependant things. Then rc-update to add/remove services from > runlevels, and rc-status to show which services are active. The simplicity that is Slackware's init scripts is that there are NO symlinks. No K01Something, S01Something, etc. There are not separate directories for each runlevel. All the init scripts are in /etc/rc.d/ If I want a service to run before or after another service I start it in the appropriate place in rc.M. Here is an excerpt of my rc.M. # Start the ACPI (Advanced Configuration and Power Interface) daemon: if [ -x /etc/rc.d/rc.acpid ]; then . /etc/rc.d/rc.acpid start fi # Load ALSA (sound) defaults: if [ -x /etc/rc.d/rc.alsa ]; then . /etc/rc.d/rc.alsa fi To get ALSA to load before ACPI, I just move it up in the file. If I want to disable a service, I just make /etc/rc.d/rc.servicename non-executable. The rc.servicename scripts have the usual start|stop|restart options. Here is the contents of my /etc/rc.d/ rc.0 rc.4 rc.6 rc.K rc.M rc.S rc.acpid rc.alsa rc.atalk rc.bind rc.cups rc.dnsmasq rc.font rc.gpm rc.hotplug rc.httpd rc.inet1 rc.inet1.conf rc.inet2 rc.inetd rc.ip_forward rc.local rc.lprng rc.modules rc.mysqld rc.nfsd rc.pcmcia rc.portmap rc.samba rc.sendmail rc.serial rc.sshd rc.syslog rc.sysvinit rc.udev rc.wireless rc.wireless.conf rc.yp Brad |
From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-29 21:45:05
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On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 14:15:39 (-0400), Bradley Reed wrote: > If you use a distro like LFS, Slackware, or even Gentoo you > definitely have to want to learn about your system. In the end > though, I feel someone that has taken the time to learn their > system, whatever it is, will have far fewer problems than someone > who trusts in third-party scripts or packaging systems to maintain > their system. ...which is why I package my own packages much of the time, and why I'm helping build a new community-driven distribution from the ground up. :-) > I was not aware of that, and that does seem to be an improvement > over what I remember, but does it break if enlightenment is in > /usr/local/bin/? Yeah, it won't work then. But if you understand *why* the dependencies it's complaining about really truly are satisfied, you can always use --nodeps. In capable hands, it's a useful option to know and use. Again, it's the people who use it and *don't* know what they're doing that ruin it for everyone. :) > Technically Slackware's init scripts are still SysV, but instead of > having numerous copies and symlinks of the init scripts in separate > directories for each run level, all the init scripts are in one > directory. I find it simpler, but to each his own. SysV init dictates that all scripts exist in /etc/init.d/<name>. The stuff in /etc/rc?.d/ are all symlinks maintained by chkconfig. The runlevel distinction is important for init purposes in many cases, particularly when needing runlevel 2 rather than 3. On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 12:18:51 (-0700), Shish wrote: > Certainly, there are a lot of people who only use gentoo for the > speed bonuses of specially targetted code, but they suck - Most > people who know what they're doing don't care for that, it's just > that gentoo is the current fad distro, so all the stoopid n00bs / > 1337 haXX0rz jumped onto it. > > I must say that it does *feel* faster, but I'd guess that that's > because I've only installed what I want, rather than all the bloat > that comes with most desktop distros. A co-worker of mine had to abandon Gentoo because the optimized binaries made his CPU run too hot. > portage seems much easier to hack / fix than RPM - eg, Rather than > wait for a new .rpm to be released, you can download the current > source tarball, and just change the checksums in the portage > database. I don't have to wait for new RPM's either. One can build one's own RPM's fairly easily, and thanks to Mezzanine (www.kainx.org/mezzanine/) and similar tools, it's even easy to update, change, and rebuild them. > Also, what was with the IRC title of "abusing the gentoo intellect > since <date>"? I'm all in favour of flaming n00bs out of the > deep-end, but people claiming that the distro is directly linked to > stupidity are no better than the n00bs claiming that it's directly > liked to speed :/ http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35890 On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 22:14:26 (+0200), Morten Nilsen wrote: > Oh, and on that subject, I'm planning on starting my very own distro > sometime in the future - how's that for hardcore geekyness? :) You should really check out www.caosity.org. On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 16:51:20 (-0400), Bradley Reed wrote: > The simplicity that is Slackware's init scripts is that there are NO > symlinks. No K01Something, S01Something, etc. There are not separate > directories for each runlevel. All the init scripts are in > /etc/rc.d/ If I want a service to run before or after another > service I start it in the appropriate place in rc.M. And that's exactly why that system doesn't work in a true package-based distribution and why so many *.d configuration directories are popping up. When dealing with packages, manual intervention is a no-no. The Slackware way requires a lot of maintenance that chkconfig simplifies greatly. It's far less error prone for a sysadmin (or a package %pre/%post scriptlet) to run "chkconfig --add httpd" and "chkconfig --del httpd" than to worry about adding and removing rc scripts from a file. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "He died for me; I'll live for Him." -- DeGarmo and Key |
From: Morten N. <mo...@ni...> - 2004-06-29 22:05:31
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Michael Jennings wrote: > On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 22:14:26 (+0200), > Morten Nilsen wrote: > >> Oh, and on that subject, I'm planning on starting my very own distro >> sometime in the future - how's that for hardcore geekyness? :) > > You should really check out www.caosity.org. I will, once I get some time... But I'm very picky about my distros... Everything I've used thus far, aside from trustix, has made me annoyed and/or angry :P -- Dr. P |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-29 22:28:08
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 17:45:02 -0400 Michael Jennings <e-...@ka...> wrote: > On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 14:15:39 (-0400), > Bradley Reed wrote: > > > Technically Slackware's init scripts are still SysV, but instead of > > having numerous copies and symlinks of the init scripts in separate > > directories for each run level, all the init scripts are in one > > directory. I find it simpler, but to each his own. > > SysV init dictates that all scripts exist in /etc/init.d/<name>. The > stuff in /etc/rc?.d/ are all symlinks maintained by chkconfig. The > runlevel distinction is important for init purposes in many cases, > particularly when needing runlevel 2 rather than 3. If that's the case, then I was wrong for Slackware has no /etc/init.d/ . Slackware maintains its version of SysV compatibility via its /etc/rc.d/rc.sysvinit script which runs the /etc/rc.d/rc?.d/K* and /etc/rc.d/rc?.d/S* scripts, if needed, for mainly binary packages which install SysV init scripts. The rc.sysvinit maintains and exports the RUNLEVEL and PREVLEVEL. There are no initscript symlinks though. Out of curiosity, what is runlevel 2? Slackware defines RL1 as single-user, RL3 as multiuser-no X, and RL4 as multiuser with X. Most other distros I've used use RL5 as multiuser with X. > And that's exactly why that system doesn't work in a true > package-based distribution and why so many *.d configuration > directories are popping up. When dealing with packages, manual > intervention is a no-no. The Slackware way requires a lot of > maintenance that chkconfig simplifies greatly. It's far less error > prone for a sysadmin (or a package %pre/%post scriptlet) to run > "chkconfig --add httpd" and "chkconfig --del httpd" than to worry > about adding and removing rc scripts from a file. I can't address chkconfig as I am unfamiliar with it, but the rc scripts need not be changed, simply chmod +x rc.httpd or chmod -x rc.httpd. Brad |
From: Michael J. <e-...@ka...> - 2004-06-30 02:18:08
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On Tuesday, 29 June 2004, at 18:27:50 (-0400), Bradley Reed wrote: > Out of curiosity, what is runlevel 2? Slackware defines RL1 as > single-user, RL3 as multiuser-no X, and RL4 as multiuser with > X. Most other distros I've used use RL5 as multiuser with X. 0. Off 1. Single user 2. Multi-user with no networking 3. Multi-user with networking but no X 4. Multi-user with networking and X 5. User-defined 6. User-defined That's how they're supposed to be, anyway. Solaris (and Linux, probably as a result thereof) use runlevel 6 for reboot, which is just silly. RH and similar distros ignore 4 and use 5 for Multi-user/network/X, which is also fairly silly. Michael -- Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <me...@ka...> n + 1, Inc., http://www.nplus1.net/ Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "I've looked for you all of my life. Now that I've found you, we will never say goodbye. I can't stop this feeling; there's nothing I can do 'cause I see everything when I look at you." -- Firehouse, "When I Look into Your Eyes" |
From: Shish <shi...@ya...> - 2004-06-29 19:18:52
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> > Gentoo is for the person who wants to claim his system is 'fastest > > 'cuz he compiled everything himself'. Gentoo, IMNSHO, is only for > > people with wide-band internet connections and lots of time to waste > > compiling everything per someone else's emerge scripts. > Can't argue with you there. But I can :) Certainly, there are a lot of people who only use gentoo for the speed bonuses of specially targetted code, but they suck - Most people who know what they're doing don't care for that, it's just that gentoo is the current fad distro, so all the stoopid n00bs / 1337 haXX0rz jumped onto it. I must say that it does *feel* faster, but I'd guess that that's because I've only installed what I want, rather than all the bloat that comes with most desktop distros. Also, I'm on dialup, and it works fine. The whole "time to waste" seems odd too - what does *your* computer do while you sleep? I would guess that for most people, not something too productive... > compiling everything per someone else's emerge scripts So do you use someone else's ./configure && make && make install, or do you do things your own way? :p Portage is basically C/M/MI, but with dependancy tracking built in (and some other odd bits) > As it happens, I encounter far more obnoxious Gentoo users these days > than I do Slackware users. As above, slack is seen as old, and gentoo is fashionable. Hence, idiots. That's what happens to every over-hyped project. Just hype some other distro, and watch people flock to that instead... Point: Once the Immense Shiny Thing that is E17 is released, and all the shiny thing collectors flock to it, what are you going to do about the reputation of E being no more than a shiny toy for n00bs? > Runlevels Coming from SuSE / Mandrake / RedHat, I'm not sure of how BSD does boot scripts, but I must say that Gentoo handles them very nicely (Yeah, I'm looking into BSD to see how that works already...) The runlevels are more meta-runlevels, as there's no link to init - and they're named, so you can do things like "rc offline" to go into the "offline" runlevel, which figures service dependancies (calculated dependancies are much nicer than giving each /etc/rc/ link a number and hoping you got them in the right order) and takes down the network-dependant things. Then rc-update to add/remove services from runlevels, and rc-status to show which services are active. > RPM, grrr portage seems much easier to hack / fix than RPM - eg, Rather than wait for a new .rpm to be released, you can download the current source tarball, and just change the checksums in the portage database. Having the plain-text database and the large program tarballs as separate things is very convenient - Portage and the runlevel implementation are my main reasons for going gentoo :) (I have yet to try apt though; Most of my software comes from linux magazine coverdisks, and they seem to have not supplied debian ISOs recently :( I would try debian when they do though, as I have some spare boxen...) Also, what was with the IRC title of "abusing the gentoo intellect since <date>"? I'm all in favour of flaming n00bs out of the deep-end, but people claiming that the distro is directly linked to stupidity are no better than the n00bs claiming that it's directly liked to speed :/ -- Shish __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail |
From: Morten N. <mo...@ni...> - 2004-06-29 20:14:40
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Shish wrote: >> RPM, grrr > > portage seems much easier to hack / fix than RPM - eg, Rather than wait for a > new .rpm to be released, you can download the current source tarball, and just > change the checksums in the portage database. Having the plain-text database > and the large program tarballs as separate things is very convenient - Portage > and the runlevel implementation are my main reasons for going gentoo :) (I have > yet to try apt though; Most of my software comes from linux magazine > coverdisks, and they seem to have not supplied debian ISOs recently :( I would > try debian when they do though, as I have some spare boxen...) I use trustix, as I mentioned, and I don't have a problem with this... Of course, over 50% of the packages I actually use (not counting system libs) were packaged by... me. :) Oh, and on that subject, I'm planning on starting my very own distro sometime in the future - how's that for hardcore geekyness? :) Cheers, -- Dr. P |
From: Shish <shi...@ya...> - 2004-06-29 22:06:09
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> Oh, and on that subject, I'm planning on starting my very own distro > sometime in the future - how's that for hardcore geekyness? :) Which reminds me... What would you guys think of a liveCD showing off the things that are going to be in E17? I have some ideas for it, but they're mostly written on bits of scrap paper lying round my room; I can't be bothered to collect and organise them all if there's no support for the idea in the first place :) -- Shish __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail |
From: Danilo A. <dan...@ne...> - 2004-06-29 22:18:39
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shi...@ya... wrote: >>Oh, and on that subject, I'm planning on starting my very own distro >>sometime in the future - how's that for hardcore geekyness? :) >> >> > >Which reminds me... What would you guys think of a liveCD showing off the >things that are going to be in E17? I have some ideas for it, but they're >mostly written on bits of scrap paper lying round my room; I can't be bothered >to collect and organise them all if there's no support for the idea in the >first place :) > a livecd will be the best :D there is a distro E its called Evil Entity |
From: Ben R. <be...@cu...> - 2004-06-29 22:37:11
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> > > shi...@ya... wrote: > >>>Oh, and on that subject, I'm planning on starting my very own distro >>>sometime in the future - how's that for hardcore geekyness? :) >>> >>> >> >>Which reminds me... What would you guys think of a liveCD showing off the >>things that are going to be in E17? I have some ideas for it, but they're >>mostly written on bits of scrap paper lying round my room; I can't be >> bothered >>to collect and organise them all if there's no support for the idea in >> the >>first place :) >> > a livecd will be the best :D there is a distro E its called Evil Entity The idea of a LiveCD has been proposed before, but no one has taken it on. I've been hoping I could get to it ever since an article was published in one of the british Linux mags about modifying Knoppix. The best LiveCD would probly be based on Knoppix, removing all the other WM's, and putting DR16.7 in place, and then making all the EFL libs and DR17 apps (elicit, entice, evidence, euphoria, etc) avalible. Add in the usual favorites if they aren't there (fresh GAIM, irssi, xchat2, etc). I doubt this is really all that hard, it's just very time consuming. benr. |
From: Bradley R. <bra...@co...> - 2004-06-29 22:34:29
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:06:07 -0700 (PDT) Shish <shi...@ya...> wrote: > Which reminds me... What would you guys think of a liveCD showing off > the things that are going to be in E17? I have some ideas for it, but > they're mostly written on bits of scrap paper lying round my room; I > can't be bothered to collect and organise them all if there's no > support for the idea in the first place :) I think a liveCD would be a great way to showcase E17. Brad |