From: Philipp K. K. <pk...@sp...> - 2007-10-30 21:00:27
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 The OpenGL ARB working group just released an update on its plans on OpenGL 3 (see opengl.org). They intent to make S3TC texture compression part of OpenGL 3. S3TC is patented, the patent expires in 2017. I suppose this would mean that there will be no free OpenGL implementation before 2017. The free software community would have to create it's own 3D API to replace OpenGL. Philipp -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHJ6lUbtUV+xsoLpoRApm1AJ9k8sK3c7RDcJ5h18WoqQVrcVKdBwCePoJF wvGocEbeFTGWJAWIuh+jbNE= =jNJQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Jerome G. <gl...@fr...> - 2007-10-30 23:16:13
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Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > The OpenGL ARB working group just released an update on its plans on > OpenGL 3 (see opengl.org). > > They intent to make S3TC texture compression part of OpenGL 3. > > S3TC is patented, the patent expires in 2017. > > I suppose this would mean that there will be no free OpenGL > implementation before 2017. The free software community would have to > create it's own 3D API to replace OpenGL. > > Philipp > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHJ6lUbtUV+xsoLpoRApm1AJ9k8sK3c7RDcJ5h18WoqQVrcVKdBwCePoJF > wvGocEbeFTGWJAWIuh+jbNE= > =jNJQ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Hopefully such kind of patent are still void in many country, i also believe that only the compression algorithm is patented (i hope you can't patent more than the algorithm...) so if we have another algorithm which produce the same output given the same input without using the algorithm then we are fine. I believe people worked on this lately. Otherwise mesa could still do opengl 3 without supporting ST3C and hide this from application POV. Beside, to the best of my knowledge, i don't think mesa ever have been certified as an opengl implementation, so mesa is not exactly an opengl implementation. Mesa provide somethings that taste, feel and smell like an opengl implementation without being one (ie doesn't have the fancy logo on the side of the box, doesn't even have box, poor of us :)). So i don't have any fear on that topics, maybe i am too naive :) Cheers, Jerome Glisse |
From: Stephane M. <mar...@ic...> - 2007-10-30 23:29:22
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On 10/31/07, Jerome Glisse <gl...@fr...> wrote: > > Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > The OpenGL ARB working group just released an update on its plans on > > OpenGL 3 (see opengl.org). > > > > They intent to make S3TC texture compression part of OpenGL 3. > > > > S3TC is patented, the patent expires in 2017. > > > > I suppose this would mean that there will be no free OpenGL > > implementation before 2017. The free software community would have to > > create it's own 3D API to replace OpenGL. > > > > Philipp > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > > > iD8DBQFHJ6lUbtUV+xsoLpoRApm1AJ9k8sK3c7RDcJ5h18WoqQVrcVKdBwCePoJF > > wvGocEbeFTGWJAWIuh+jbNE= > > =jNJQ > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > > Hopefully such kind of patent are still void in many country, i also > believe that > only the compression algorithm is patented (i hope you can't patent more > than the > algorithm...) so if we have another algorithm which produce the same > output given > the same input without using the algorithm then we are fine. I believe > people worked > on this lately. Yeah, any news about this ? A patent-free S3TC implementation that can live in mesa would be extremely convenient... Stephane |
From: Brian P. <bri...@tu...> - 2007-10-31 03:22:41
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Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > The OpenGL ARB working group just released an update on its plans on > OpenGL 3 (see opengl.org). > > They intent to make S3TC texture compression part of OpenGL 3. > > S3TC is patented, the patent expires in 2017. > > I suppose this would mean that there will be no free OpenGL > implementation before 2017. The free software community would have to > create it's own 3D API to replace OpenGL. Mesa has had support for S3TC via an external library for several years now. There's usually ways to work around problems like what you describe. -Brian |
From: Philipp K. K. <pk...@sp...> - 2007-10-31 16:31:03
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Brian Paul schrieb: > Mesa has had support for S3TC via an external library for several years now. > > There's usually ways to work around problems like what you describe. > > -Brian A workaround is a workaround. It's fine for those that are willing to spend some time on getting some aspect (in this case hardware-accelerted OpenGL) of their system working. However OpenGL 3 will not work out of the box on a new Linus installation. It will not work on a PC that came pre-installed with Linux. Neither Debian nor Dell will openly break US patent law (no will any other distribution/computer vendor). In userfriendlyness there's a huge difference between: - -OpenGL 3 just works (distribution's hardware autodetection installed free DRI drivers supporting OpenGL 3, PC came with them preinstalled) - -User has to search the web to find some forum or website telling him to download and install a library hosted in switzerland to get OpenGL 3 working (and that this is unlawful depending on where the user lives). Philipp -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHKK2abtUV+xsoLpoRAm8aAJ9UqqGayegWiQaw+Ps3cNWV6QpbMgCfaUr/ rLGtUDNfYifL2fme3SMbxgY= =tfGI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Helge H. <hel...@ai...> - 2007-11-08 10:47:46
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Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Brian Paul schrieb: > > >> Mesa has had support for S3TC via an external library for several years now. >> >> There's usually ways to work around problems like what you describe. >> >> -Brian >> > > A workaround is a workaround. It's fine for those that are willing to > spend some time on getting some aspect (in this case hardware-accelerted > OpenGL) of their system working. > > However OpenGL 3 will not work out of the box on a new Linus > installation. It will not work on a PC that came pre-installed with Linux. > > Neither Debian nor Dell will openly break US patent law (no will any > other distribution/computer vendor). > > In userfriendlyness there's a huge difference between: > - -OpenGL 3 just works (distribution's hardware autodetection installed > free DRI drivers supporting OpenGL 3, PC came with them preinstalled) > - -User has to search the web to find some forum or website telling him to > download and install a library hosted in switzerland to get OpenGL 3 > working (and that this is unlawful depending on where the user lives). > You forget: - OpenGL just works,but report to apps that texture compression is not supported. Apps fall back on uncompressed textures, wasting memory instead. Helge Hafting |
From: Allen A. <ak...@ar...> - 2007-10-31 18:59:53
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On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 05:30:18PM +0100, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: | However OpenGL 3 will not work out of the box on a new Linus | installation. It will not work on a PC that came pre-installed with Linux. I'm not working with Khronos these days, so I'm not privy to the discussions about including S3TC in OpenGL. However, based on past discussions in the ARB, I don't think we should automatically conclude that OpenGL 3 won't work out-of-the-box. The licensing terms will determine what can be done. It's possible that the license will permit royalty-free unlimited redistribution of decompression code with Mesa, in which case we don't have a problem. It's possible that the license only applies to hardware implementations, in which case Mesa isn't even involved. So I'd recommend contacting Khronos and asking what the licensing terms are likely to be, when they'll be finalized, and whether there's any process to influence them (if they seem to be headed in the wrong direction). Allen |
From: Ian R. <id...@us...> - 2007-10-31 21:50:04
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Allen Akin wrote: > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 05:30:18PM +0100, Philipp Klaus Krause wrote: > | However OpenGL 3 will not work out of the box on a new Linus > | installation. It will not work on a PC that came pre-installed with Linux. > > I'm not working with Khronos these days, so I'm not privy to the > discussions about including S3TC in OpenGL. However, based on past > discussions in the ARB, I don't think we should automatically conclude > that OpenGL 3 won't work out-of-the-box. The licensing terms will > determine what can be done. > > It's possible that the license will permit royalty-free unlimited > redistribution of decompression code with Mesa, in which case we don't > have a problem. > > It's possible that the license only applies to hardware implementations, > in which case Mesa isn't even involved. > > So I'd recommend contacting Khronos and asking what the licensing terms > are likely to be, when they'll be finalized, and whether there's any > process to influence them (if they seem to be headed in the wrong > direction). The problem is that, as far as I'm aware, the IP in question isn't owned by Khronos or a member company. I'll look into this. I also recommend that other folks on the list that work for member companies (*cough*Intel*cough*Nokia*) do the same. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHKPhwX1gOwKyEAw8RAhYFAKCeTogXQTvtA5dlWkzIIQU76jJIAACffzj3 8uQ8nKN2Uy4GHZG1IaD/VaQ= =+CmP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Philipp K. K. <pk...@sp...> - 2007-12-27 17:44:06
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ian Romanick schrieb: > > The problem is that, as far as I'm aware, the IP in question isn't owned > by Khronos or a member company. I'll look into this. I also recommend > that other folks on the list that work for member companies > (*cough*Intel*cough*Nokia*) do the same. Any news about this? Philipp -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHc+RXbtUV+xsoLpoRAvYKAJsF5D6mGcelhKYkXjogl+G2aKiQlQCfYL40 rNavqqjxu7CoRI+2feg7u0A= =lyhK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |