Thread: [Celestia-developers] Re: Small locations files
Real-time 3D visualization of space
Status: Beta
Brought to you by:
cjlaurel
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-04 08:19:28
|
----- Original Message ----- From: <cel...@li...> To: <cel...@li...> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 4:01 AM Subject: Celestia-developers digest, Vol 1 #288 - 2 msgs > Send Celestia-developers mailing list submissions to > cel...@li... > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cel...@li... > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cel...@li... > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Celestia-developers digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Small locations files (Grant Hutchison) > 2. Re: Small locations files (Don Goyette) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: "Grant Hutchison" <gra...@bl...> > To: "Chris Laurel" <cl...@ww...> > Cc: "Celestia Developers" <cel...@li...> > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:52:03 -0000 > Subject: [Celestia-developers] Small locations files > > Appended is my best fist at a small locations file marking up notable > features around the solar system - it's the sort of thing I had in mind for > distribution with the Celestia base package. I've tried to stick to a small > number of large, easily visible or well-know features for each major body. > For the Earth, I've simply marked major continents and oceans. The mix of > caps and lower case may need some explanation: I've used caps throughout the > IAU location files for Regiones, Maria and Terrae - these are extended > features, and I think the use of caps alerts the viewer to the fact that the > object labelled covers a wide area. For the Earth I've therefore used caps > for the seas and continents, and coded them as Terrae and Maria. > Comments and suggestions for deletions and additions welcome. > > On another matter, checking this locations file has brought to my attention > that the Miranda texture is stretched in latitude for the "real" portion of > the texture - the features are out of register with their labels. (The other > Uranians are all correct.) From the copyright point of view I've surmised > that we probably need to redo all the Uranian textures anyway, since > Bruckner's versions are said to have come from JPL (although I can find no > JPL maps of the Uranians on the web). But there are 1k copyright free maps > available at, for instance, http://planetscapes.com/maps/uranus.html. I'm > afraid it would be beyond my current skills to convert them to anything at > all pretty in the way of filling the blank areas, but I have confirmed that > the Miranda map on this site does line up correctly with the locations and > my grid overlay texture. > > Grant > ======================= > Location "Caloris Planitia" "Sol/Mercury" > { > LongLat [ -189.8 30.5 0 ] > Size 1300 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Beethoven" "Sol/Mercury" > { > LongLat [ -123.6 -20.8 0 ] > Size 643 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Dostoevskij" "Sol/Mercury" > { > LongLat [ -176.4 -45.1 0 ] > Size 411 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Goethe" "Sol/Mercury" > { > LongLat [ -44.5 78.5 0 ] > Size 383 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Shakespeare" "Sol/Mercury" > { > LongLat [ -150.9 49.7 0 ] > Size 370 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Tolstoj" "Sol/Mercury" > { > LongLat [ -163.5 -16.3 0 ] > Size 390 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "APHRODITE TERRA" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -104.8 5.8 0 ] > Size 10000 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "ISHTAR TERRA" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -27.5 -70.4 0 ] > Size 5610 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "Maxwell Montes" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -3.3 -65.2 0 ] > Size 797 > Type "MO" > } > > Location "Lakshmi Planum" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -339.3 -68.6 0 ] > Size 2345 > Type "PM" > } > > Location "Artemis Chasma" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -138.5 41.2 0 ] > Size 3087 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Hecate Chasma" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -254.3 -18.2 0 ] > Size 3145 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Devana Chasma" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -285 -16 0 ] > Size 4600 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Dali Chasma" "Sol/Venus" > { > LongLat [ -167 17.6 0 ] > Size 2077 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "NORTH AMERICA" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ -105 40 0 ] > Size 5000 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "SOUTH AMERICA" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ -60 -10 0 ] > Size 1300 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "EUROPE" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 10 50 0 ] > Size 3200 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "ASIA" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 90 40 0 ] > Size 6600 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "AFRICA" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 20 5 0 ] > Size 5500 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "ANTARCTICA" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 0 -90 0 ] > Size 3600 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "NORTH AMERICA" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ -105 40 0 ] > Size 5000 > Type "TA" > } > > Location "NORTH ATLANTIC OCEAN" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ -45 40 0 ] > Size 6400 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "SOUTH ATLANTIC OCEAN" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ -15 -15 0 ] > Size 6400 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "NORTH PACIFIC OCEAN" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 180 30 0 ] > Size 9000 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "SOUTH PACIFIC OCEAN" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ -160 -10 0 ] > Size 9000 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "INDIAN OCEAN" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 75 -15 0 ] > Size 8500 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "ARCTIC OCEAN" "Sol/Earth" > { > LongLat [ 0 90 0 ] > Size 3700 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE AUSTRALE" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 93 -38.9 0 ] > Size 603 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE CRISIUM" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 59.1 17 0 ] > Size 418 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE FECUNDITATIS" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 51.3 -7.8 0 ] > Size 909 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE FRIGORIS" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 1.4 56 0 ] > Size 1596 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE IMBRIUM" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -15.6 32.8 0 ] > Size 1123 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE INSULARUM" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -30.9 7.5 0 ] > Size 513 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE MOSCOVIENSE" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 147.9 27.3 0 ] > Size 277 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE NUBIUM" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -16.6 -21.3 0 ] > Size 715 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE ORIENTALE" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -92.8 -19.4 0 ] > Size 327 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE SERENITATIS" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 17.5 28 0 ] > Size 707 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "MARE TRANQUILLITATIS" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 31.4 8.5 0 ] > Size 873 > Type "ME" > } > > Location "OCEANUS PROCELLARUM" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -57.4 18.4 0 ] > Size 2568 > Type "OC" > } > > Location "Aristarchus" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -47.4 23.7 0 ] > Size 40 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Copernicus" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -20.1 9.7 0 ] > Size 93 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Kepler" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -38 8.1 0 ] > Size 31 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Tycho" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ -11.1 -43.4 0 ] > Size 102 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Tsiolkovskiy" "Sol/Earth/Moon" > { > LongLat [ 128.9 -21.2 0 ] > Size 185 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Acidalia Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 338 46.7 0 ] > Size 2300 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Amazonis Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 196 24.8 0 ] > Size 2800 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Arcadia Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 192 46.7 0 ] > Size 2200 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Argyre Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 316 -49.7 0 ] > Size 800 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Chryse Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 320 26.7 0 ] > Size 1700 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Elysium Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 155 2 0 ] > Size 3000 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Hellas Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 70 -42.7 0 ] > Size 2200 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Isidis Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 87 12.9 0 ] > Size 1200 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Utopia Planitia" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 118 49.7 0 ] > Size 3200 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Valles Marineris" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 300.8 -13.8 0 ] > Size 3769 > Type "VA" > } > > Location "Olympus Mons" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 226 18.4 0 ] > Size 648 > Type "MO" > } > > Location "Ascraeus Mons" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 255.5 11.8 0 ] > Size 460 > Type "MO" > } > > Location "Pavonis Mons" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 246.6 0.8 0 ] > Size 375 > Type "MO" > } > > Location "Arsia Mons" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 238.9 -8.4 0 ] > Size 475 > Type "MO" > } > > Location "Elysium Mons" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 146.9 24.8 0 ] > Size 410 > Type "MO" > } > > Location "Cassini" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 31.8 23.6 0 ] > Size 412 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Huygens" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 55.4 -14.1 0 ] > Size 470 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Schiaparelli" "Sol/Mars" > { > LongLat [ 16.7 -2.7 0 ] > Size 471 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Stickney" "Sol/Mars/Phobos" > { > LongLat [ -235 5 0 ] > Size 5 > Type "AA" > } > > > Location "Dazhbog Patera" "Sol/Jupiter/Io" > { > LongLat [ -301.6 54 0 ] > Size 150 > Type "PE" > } > > Location "Loki Patera" "Sol/Jupiter/Io" > { > LongLat [ -308.8 12.6 0 ] > Size 250 > Type "PE" > } > > Location "Pele" "Sol/Jupiter/Io" > { > LongLat [ -257.8 -18.6 0 ] > Size 200 > Type "ER" > } > > Location "Prometheus" "Sol/Jupiter/Io" > { > LongLat [ -153 -1.6 0 ] > Size 400 > Type "ER" > } > > Location "Callanish" "Sol/Jupiter/Europa" > { > LongLat [ -333.4 -16 0 ] > Size 100 > Type "LG" > } > > Location "Tyre" "Sol/Jupiter/Europa" > { > LongLat [ -147 31.7 0 ] > Size 148 > Type "LG" > } > > Location "Cyclades Macula" "Sol/Jupiter/Europa" > { > LongLat [ -192 -64 0 ] > Size 105 > Type "MA" > } > > Location "Thera Macula" "Sol/Jupiter/Europa" > { > LongLat [ -180.9 -47.7 0 ] > Size 78 > Type "MA" > } > > Location "Thrace Macula" "Sol/Jupiter/Europa" > { > LongLat [ -171.2 -46.6 0 ] > Size 173 > Type "MA" > } > > Location "Taliesin" "Sol/Jupiter/Europa" > { > LongLat [ -137.4 -23.2 0 ] > Size 48 > Type "AA" > } > > > Location "Memphis Facula" "Sol/Jupiter/Ganymede" > { > LongLat [ -132.5 15.4 0 ] > Size 344 > Type "FA" > } > > > Location "Elam Sulci" "Sol/Jupiter/Ganymede" > { > LongLat [ -205.5 57.4 0 ] > Size 1866 > Type "SU" > } > > Location "Phrygia Sulcus" "Sol/Jupiter/Ganymede" > { > LongLat [ -19.3 12.4 0 ] > Size 3205 > Type "SU" > } > > Location "Uruk Sulcus" "Sol/Jupiter/Ganymede" > { > LongLat [ -169 8.4 0 ] > Size 2456 > Type "SU" > } > > Location "Punt" "Sol/Jupiter/Ganymede" > { > LongLat [ -242.2 -26.1 0 ] > Size 228 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Tashmetum" "Sol/Jupiter/Ganymede" > { > LongLat [ -264.4 -39.7 0 ] > Size 155 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Valhalla" "Sol/Jupiter/Callisto" > { > LongLat [ -56.6 15.9 0 ] > Size 2748 > Type "LG" > } > > Location "Asgard" "Sol/Jupiter/Callisto" > { > LongLat [ -139.8 32 0 ] > Size 1347 > Type "LG" > } > > Location "Heimdall" "Sol/Jupiter/Callisto" > { > LongLat [ -357 -64 0 ] > Size 345 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Lofn" "Sol/Jupiter/Callisto" > { > LongLat [ -24 -57 0 ] > Size 200 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Herschel" "Sol/Saturn/Mimas" > { > LongLat [ -109.5 2.9 0 ] > Size 150 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Diyar Planitia" "Sol/Saturn/Enceladus" > { > LongLat [ -239.7 0.5 0 ] > Size 311 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Sarandib Planitia" "Sol/Saturn/Enceladus" > { > LongLat [ -298 4.4 0 ] > Size 200 > Type "PL" > } > > Location "Samarkand Sulci" "Sol/Saturn/Enceladus" > { > LongLat [ -326.8 30.5 0 ] > Size 383 > Type "SU" > } > > Location "Aladdin" "Sol/Saturn/Enceladus" > { > LongLat [ -16.9 63.1 0 ] > Size 34 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Ali Baba" "Sol/Saturn/Enceladus" > { > LongLat [ -12 57.2 0 ] > Size 35 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Odysseus" "Sol/Saturn/Tethys" > { > LongLat [ -130 30 0 ] > Size 400 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Penelope" "Sol/Saturn/Tethys" > { > LongLat [ -248 -11.5 0 ] > Size 250 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Ithaca Chasma" "Sol/Saturn/Tethys" > { > LongLat [ -3 -10.3 0 ] > Size 800 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Aeneas" "Sol/Saturn/Dione" > { > LongLat [ -46.3 26.1 0 ] > Size 166 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Dido" "Sol/Saturn/Dione" > { > LongLat [ -18.5 -23.7 0 ] > Size 118 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Izanagi" "Sol/Saturn/Rhea" > { > LongLat [ -310.2 -49.4 0 ] > Size 200 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Ormazd" "Sol/Saturn/Rhea" > { > LongLat [ -58.5 52.5 0 ] > Size 200 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Roland" "Sol/Saturn/Iapetus" > { > LongLat [ -25.2 73.3 0 ] > Size 144 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Marsilion" "Sol/Saturn/Iapetus" > { > LongLat [ -176.1 39.2 0 ] > Size 136 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "CASSINI REGIO" "Sol/Saturn/Iapetus" > { > LongLat [ -92.6 -28.1 0 ] > Size 1000 > Type "RE" > } > > Location "Argier Rupes" "Sol/Uranus/Miranda" > { > LongLat [ -322.8 43.2 0 ] > Size 141 > Type "RU" > } > > Location "Arden Corona" "Sol/Uranus/Miranda" > { > LongLat [ -73.7 29.1 0 ] > Size 318 > Type "CR" > } > > Location "Elsinore Corona" "Sol/Uranus/Miranda" > { > LongLat [ -257.1 24.8 0 ] > Size 323 > Type "CR" > } > > Location "Inverness Corona" "Sol/Uranus/Miranda" > { > LongLat [ -325.7 66.9 0 ] > Size 234 > Type "CR" > } > > Location "Kachina Chasmata" "Sol/Uranus/Ariel" > { > LongLat [ -246 33.7 0 ] > Size 622 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Kewpie Chasma" "Sol/Uranus/Ariel" > { > LongLat [ -326.9 28.3 0 ] > Size 467 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Korrigan Chasma" "Sol/Uranus/Ariel" > { > LongLat [ -347.5 27.6 0 ] > Size 365 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Laica" "Sol/Uranus/Ariel" > { > LongLat [ -44.4 21.3 0 ] > Size 30 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Messina Chasmata" "Sol/Uranus/Titania" > { > LongLat [ -335 33.3 0 ] > Size 1492 > Type "CM" > } > > Location "Gertrude" "Sol/Uranus/Titania" > { > LongLat [ -287.1 15.8 0 ] > Size 326 > Type "AA" > } > > > Location "Ursula" "Sol/Uranus/Titania" > { > LongLat [ -45.2 12.4 0 ] > Size 135 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Malingee" "Sol/Uranus/Umbriel" > { > LongLat [ -13.9 22.9 0 ] > Size 164 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Wokolo" "Sol/Uranus/Umbriel" > { > LongLat [ -1.8 30 0 ] > Size 208 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Wunda" "Sol/Uranus/Umbriel" > { > LongLat [ -273.6 7.9 0 ] > Size 131 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Hamlet" "Sol/Uranus/Oberon" > { > LongLat [ -44.4 46.1 0 ] > Size 206 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "MacBeth" "Sol/Uranus/Oberon" > { > LongLat [ -112.5 58.4 0 ] > Size 203 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Pharos" "Sol/Neptune/Proteus" > { > LongLat [ -180 -20 0 ] > Size 255 > Type "AA" > } > > Location "Doro Macula" "Sol/Neptune/Triton" > { > LongLat [ -31.7 27.5 0 ] > Size 100 > Type "MA" > } > > Location "Namazu Macula" "Sol/Neptune/Triton" > { > LongLat [ -14 25.5 0 ] > Size 100 > Type "MA" > } > > Location "Viviane Macula" "Sol/Neptune/Triton" > { > LongLat [ -36.5 31 0 ] > Size 100 > Type "MA" > } > > Location "Zin Maculae" "Sol/Neptune/Triton" > { > LongLat [ -68 24.5 0 ] > Size 300 > Type "MA" > } > > > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > Reply-To: "Don Goyette" <do...@do...> Don: > Earth: are Greenland and Australia considered to be continents? No, they're large islands. > Jupiter: No location labels. How about the "Great Red Spot", recent > meteorite impact sites, weather phenomena, probe entry points, etc.? Because Jupiter's clouds rotate at different rates, there are no fixed longitudes for such objects, so marking impact and probe entries is impossible. The position of the GRS is not standardized between textures at present, so I deliberately avoided labelling it. Zones and belts are a possibility, but the classic cloud zones are not well represented in any of the Jupiter textures I've seen - those at high latitudes are patchy or absent much of the time. > Saturn: No location labels. Maybe name a couple of the rings / > divisions? I have a rings file for Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, but hadn't considered ring labels for this very basic package. If I get more votes, I'll put them in. > Uranus, Neptune, Pluto: No location labels. Nothing to add? No named surface detail, apart from a couple of cloud features on Neptune which no longer exist in the real world. I guess I'm philosophically opposed to naming transient or mobile objects like clouds. Grant |
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-06 14:28:27
|
> ... I think Chris might > have already answered, in so many words <smile> If he has, then it seems I haven't understood him. > mark each of the individual Australasia locations with "Australasia", > and enter the local landmass in parens? Such as "Australasia > (Australia)". <pulls face> Not keen, to be honest. It's visually messy and it opens a new can of worms, since I'd be labelling small landmasses (like New Zealand) that don't attract a label elsewhere on the globe. I'm marking features by their visual prominence elsewhere in the solar system, and would like to stick to that with Earth, too. I really thought I had a geographically, historically and visually defensible mix in the original offering, which just avoided labelling Austral(as)ia entirely. A simple cut-off rule that we label only bodies of water or land with an area greater than 10 million sq.km. neatly excludes all epicontinental seas and large islands, and leaves us with only the three classical continents, the three historical continents, and the six more-or-less standard divisions of the World Sea. Seems to me that the only concern about the above scheme is the one raised by Chris, which is that it might be seen as containing a potentially "complete" list of continents, and will therefore invite protest from Austral(as)ians who see themselves as having been excluded. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and even if we drop the labelling threshold to ~7 million sq.km., I find that after recent discussion I'm now unhappy with both the "Australia" and the "Australasia" option, since it would appear that each will be seen as an ignorant choice by some proportion of our audience. So may I propose something I now see I should have done originally? Let's just step out of the box by ditching the Greek notion (born of limited geographical knowledge) that Europe is a continent on equal footing with the other land-masses. Then we can label five very large, geographically *very* distinct land features called Eurasia, Africa, North America, South America and Antarctica; we have a neat labelling cut-off at 10 million sq.km.; and Australians will find it difficult to muster an effective dudgeon when neither Europe nor Asia has been labelled, and the smallest labelled landmass is almost twice as large as Australia. Problem solved? Grant |
From: root <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-06 15:37:09
|
While I find this 'continental' discussion intellectually 'inspiring';-), I start wondering what the very purpose of such an extremely reduced labelling scheme on earth might be. I think, even small elementary school kids learn to recognize the few continents and other earthbound labels we are talking about at present. So what is the 'non-trivial' info, our earth-labels are supposed to provide to the users? Is it essentially to point out that Celestia is capable of administrating labels?;-) Bye Fridger PS: this does of course not apply to planets and moons where most of the users will be much less "at home". Grant Hutchison wrote: > > > ... I think Chris might > > have already answered, in so many words <smile> > If he has, then it seems I haven't understood him. > > > mark each of the individual Australasia locations with "Australasia", > > and enter the local landmass in parens? Such as "Australasia > > (Australia)". > <pulls face> Not keen, to be honest. It's visually messy and it opens a new > can of worms, since I'd be labelling small landmasses (like New Zealand) > that don't attract a label elsewhere on the globe. I'm marking features by > their visual prominence elsewhere in the solar system, and would like to > stick to that with Earth, too. > I really thought I had a geographically, historically and visually > defensible mix in the original offering, which just avoided labelling > Austral(as)ia entirely. A simple cut-off rule that we label only bodies of > water or land with an area greater than 10 million sq.km. neatly excludes > all epicontinental seas and large islands, and leaves us with only the three > classical continents, the three historical continents, and the six > more-or-less standard divisions of the World Sea. > Seems to me that the only concern about the above scheme is the one raised > by Chris, which is that it might be seen as containing a potentially > "complete" list of continents, and will therefore invite protest from > Austral(as)ians who see themselves as having been excluded. But the line has > to be drawn somewhere, and even if we drop the labelling threshold to ~7 > million sq.km., I find that after recent discussion I'm now unhappy with > both the "Australia" and the "Australasia" option, since it would appear > that each will be seen as an ignorant choice by some proportion of our > audience. > So may I propose something I now see I should have done originally? Let's > just step out of the box by ditching the Greek notion (born of limited > geographical knowledge) that Europe is a continent on equal footing with the > other land-masses. Then we can label five very large, geographically *very* > distinct land features called Eurasia, Africa, North America, South America > and Antarctica; we have a neat labelling cut-off at 10 million sq.km.; and > Australians will find it difficult to muster an effective dudgeon when > neither Europe nor Asia has been labelled, and the smallest labelled > landmass is almost twice as large as Australia. > Problem solved? > > Grant > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Celestia-developers mailing list > Cel...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers |
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-06 16:21:37
|
> So what is the 'non-trivial' info, our earth-labels are supposed to provide to > the users? Is it essentially to point out that Celestia is capable of > administrating labels?;-) Good point. My own view is that these labels are provided merely to prevent the otherwise inevitable complaint from a small number of users that "Earth locations aren't working" - they'll be expected either out of a simple desire for consistency, or just pure Earth-centrism. But that's perhaps not a good enough reason to include them. Omitting them entirely would certainly be a radical solution to a our tiny but vexatious problem :-) Grant |
From: root <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-06 16:54:04
|
Certainly, a very sensible, /non-trivial/ yet not too large set of earth-locations would include /all/ capitals of /all/ countries (~250?) on earth. Just right now, I am struggling -- with combining and exploiting via Perl /all/ the info contained in the two /large/ earth locations files: the new UNECE-2003-2 ,(~40000 locations) and the Xephem file (~500 locations), -- with deriving appropriate 'importance weights' and -- with eliminating doubles. I might even have all capitals in that file, but how to project them out, without doing it one-by-one? My importance weights are constructed such that the capitals will probably be included among the locations of highest weight, but that's all I can say at present. Perhaps, there is another file somewhere on the net, listing /all/ capitals? That would solve the problem almost immediately, since again with Perl, I then could project out the associated long-lat coordinates and importance weights from the big locations file... Another issue, about which I would like to receive further input/comments/suggestions, is this: For my own set of earth tiles that includes the full 32k texture info, I have eliminated meanwhile /most/ overlaps of labels just by means of those generated weights. People using smaller-sized textures would then only be able in practice to exploit a fraction of the available locations, since their appearance depends on the fov or distance from the earth surface. I think that's life or is there another idea? Bye Fridger Grant Hutchison wrote: > > > So what is the 'non-trivial' info, our earth-labels are supposed to > provide to > > the users? Is it essentially to point out that Celestia is capable of > > administrating labels?;-) > Good point. My own view is that these labels are provided merely to prevent > the otherwise inevitable complaint from a small number of users that "Earth > locations aren't working" - they'll be expected either out of a simple > desire for consistency, or just pure Earth-centrism. > But that's perhaps not a good enough reason to include them. Omitting them > entirely would certainly be a radical solution to a our tiny but vexatious > problem :-) > > Grant > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Celestia-developers mailing list > Cel...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-06 17:42:21
|
Beautiful, Grant! I knew you were the right person to ask;-). Except that a *.txt file instead of *.pdf would be much less Perl coding. But nevertheless, this is an excellent start... Bye Fridger Grant Hutchison wrote: > > > Perhaps, there is another file somewhere on the net, listing /all/ > capitals? > Knowing your antipathy to Microsoft, I offer the official UN list in PDF at > http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/english/geoname.pdf > I'm guessing that after some minor editing out of page breaks and > "furniture", you can retrieve the full [accented ;-)] capital names from > such a table? > > Grant |
From: Hank R. <hr...@qw...> - 2003-12-06 18:22:20
|
Fridger, Here's a site that includes a table of the world's large cities (population>1M) with their approximate population figures: http://www.citypopulation.de/ You might consider including this info as a factor in your "importance" calculations. - Hank |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-06 19:37:20
|
Hank, thanks a lot, I now can see light at the end of the tunnel;-). Unfortunately, I am also lacking enough time for net-browsing with leisure... Now it's all a matter of some clever Perl hacking to correlate these various files and squeeze the result out... Bye Fridger Hank Ramsey wrote: > > Fridger, > > Here's a site that includes a table of the world's large cities > (population>1M) with their approximate population figures: > http://www.citypopulation.de/ > > You might consider including this info as a factor in your "importance" > calculations. > > - Hank |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-06 17:46:45
|
Addendum: with the 'capital' file I can merge a 'capital' index weight with the existing weights, such that at large distances from earth only the capitals are visible, while more and more locations will be appearing when closing up! Bye Fridger |
From: Don G. <do...@do...> - 2003-12-06 19:47:26
|
Fridger wrote: > Certainly, a very sensible, /non-trivial/ yet not too large set of earth-locations would include /all/ capitals of /all/ countries (~250?) on earth. This sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't it require the political boundaries map (cloud texture) in order to define *where* the countries are actually located? My thinking is towards the younger and/or geographically unknowledgable users. -Don G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "root" <t0...@ma...> To: "Grant Hutchison" <gra...@bl...> Cc: "Celestia Developers" <cel...@li...> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [Celestia-developers] Re: Small locations files > Certainly, a very sensible, /non-trivial/ yet not too large set of > earth-locations would include /all/ capitals of /all/ countries (~250?) on > earth. > > Just right now, I am struggling > > -- with combining and exploiting via Perl /all/ the info contained in the two > /large/ earth locations files: the new UNECE-2003-2 ,(~40000 locations) and the > Xephem file (~500 locations), > > -- with deriving appropriate 'importance weights' and > > -- with eliminating doubles. > > I might even have all capitals in that file, but how to project them out, > without doing it one-by-one? My importance weights are constructed such that > the capitals will probably be included among the locations of highest weight, > but that's all I can say at present. > > Perhaps, there is another file somewhere on the net, listing /all/ capitals? > > That would solve the problem almost immediately, since again with Perl, I then > could project out the associated long-lat coordinates and importance weights > from the big locations file... > > Another issue, about which I would like to receive further > input/comments/suggestions, is this: > > For my own set of earth tiles that includes the full 32k texture info, I have > eliminated meanwhile /most/ overlaps of labels just by means of those generated > weights. People using smaller-sized textures would then only be able in > practice to exploit a fraction of the available locations, since their > appearance depends on the fov or distance from the earth surface. I think > that's life or is there another idea? > > > Bye Fridger > > > Grant Hutchison wrote: > > > > > So what is the 'non-trivial' info, our earth-labels are supposed to > > provide to > > > the users? Is it essentially to point out that Celestia is capable of > > > administrating labels?;-) > > Good point. My own view is that these labels are provided merely to prevent > > the otherwise inevitable complaint from a small number of users that "Earth > > locations aren't working" - they'll be expected either out of a simple > > desire for consistency, or just pure Earth-centrism. > > But that's perhaps not a good enough reason to include them. Omitting them > > entirely would certainly be a radical solution to a our tiny but vexatious > > problem :-) > > > > Grant > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Celestia-developers mailing list > > Cel...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Celestia-developers mailing list > Cel...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers > > |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-06 20:38:07
|
Don Goyette wrote: > > Fridger wrote: > > > Certainly, a very sensible, /non-trivial/ yet > not too large set of earth-locations would > include /all/ capitals of /all/ countries > (~250?) on earth. > > This sounds like a good idea, but wouldn't it require the political > boundaries map (cloud texture) in order to define *where* the > countries are actually located? My thinking is towards the younger > and/or geographically unknowledgable users. > > -Don G. > Why? The trick is to combine the info from several such files as follows: I read in the list of capitals from Grant and then do a pattern matching with the city names listed in the combined huge UNECE-2003-2 and Xephem files. Whenever I get a match, then I know the associated long-lat coordinates. That's all I need for the label display. I could trivially display in addition a two-character country code and even a further subdivision code in form of Laender/Departements/....that is also stored in the UNECE file. But then, it seems, the selection of these names does not work anymore in Celestia...Got to dig in the code to understand what is going on... Bye Fridger |
From: Don G. <do...@do...> - 2003-12-06 19:47:27
|
Grant wrote: > If he has, then it seems I haven't understood him. Just his comment about upsetting the Aussies <smile>. > <pulls face> Not keen, to be honest. That's okay, it was just an idea to throw out here as a possibility. Countries only is another idea, but that becomes a political boundary / geography lesson and would probably need to be changed too frequently. Would also need to include the political boundary map in the default distribution, with instructions, etc. <sigh>. No more ideas on my end. -Don G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Hutchison" <gra...@bl...> To: <do...@do...>; "Chris Laurel" <cl...@ww...> Cc: "Celestia Developers" <cel...@li...> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 7:25 AM Subject: [Celestia-developers] Re: Small locations files > > ... I think Chris might > > have already answered, in so many words <smile> > If he has, then it seems I haven't understood him. > > > mark each of the individual Australasia locations with "Australasia", > > and enter the local landmass in parens? Such as "Australasia > > (Australia)". > <pulls face> Not keen, to be honest. It's visually messy and it opens a new > can of worms, since I'd be labelling small landmasses (like New Zealand) > that don't attract a label elsewhere on the globe. I'm marking features by > their visual prominence elsewhere in the solar system, and would like to > stick to that with Earth, too. > I really thought I had a geographically, historically and visually > defensible mix in the original offering, which just avoided labelling > Austral(as)ia entirely. A simple cut-off rule that we label only bodies of > water or land with an area greater than 10 million sq.km. neatly excludes > all epicontinental seas and large islands, and leaves us with only the three > classical continents, the three historical continents, and the six > more-or-less standard divisions of the World Sea. > Seems to me that the only concern about the above scheme is the one raised > by Chris, which is that it might be seen as containing a potentially > "complete" list of continents, and will therefore invite protest from > Austral(as)ians who see themselves as having been excluded. But the line has > to be drawn somewhere, and even if we drop the labelling threshold to ~7 > million sq.km., I find that after recent discussion I'm now unhappy with > both the "Australia" and the "Australasia" option, since it would appear > that each will be seen as an ignorant choice by some proportion of our > audience. > So may I propose something I now see I should have done originally? Let's > just step out of the box by ditching the Greek notion (born of limited > geographical knowledge) that Europe is a continent on equal footing with the > other land-masses. Then we can label five very large, geographically *very* > distinct land features called Eurasia, Africa, North America, South America > and Antarctica; we have a neat labelling cut-off at 10 million sq.km.; and > Australians will find it difficult to muster an effective dudgeon when > neither Europe nor Asia has been labelled, and the smallest labelled > landmass is almost twice as large as Australia. > Problem solved? > > Grant > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Celestia-developers mailing list > Cel...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers > > |
From: Chris L. <cl...@ww...> - 2003-12-08 11:38:22
|
I was away in Whistler, British Columbia for a few days. What a lot of discussion this issue has provoked! On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Grant Hutchison wrote: > > ... I think Chris might > > have already answered, in so many words <smile> > If he has, then it seems I haven't understood him. > > > mark each of the individual Australasia locations with "Australasia", > > and enter the local landmass in parens? Such as "Australasia > > (Australia)". > <pulls face> Not keen, to be honest. It's visually messy and it opens a new > can of worms, since I'd be labelling small landmasses (like New Zealand) > that don't attract a label elsewhere on the globe. I'm marking features by > their visual prominence elsewhere in the solar system, and would like to > stick to that with Earth, too. As much as I enjoyed New Zealand, I don't think that this is the right solution. > So may I propose something I now see I should have done originally? Let's > just step out of the box by ditching the Greek notion (born of limited > geographical knowledge) that Europe is a continent on equal footing with the > other land-masses. Then we can label five very large, geographically *very* > distinct land features called Eurasia, Africa, North America, South America > and Antarctica; we have a neat labelling cut-off at 10 million sq.km.; and > Australians will find it difficult to muster an effective dudgeon when > neither Europe nor Asia has been labelled, and the smallest labelled > landmass is almost twice as large as Australia. > Problem solved? I'm sure that there will still be some people unhappy with this solution, but whatever--it's just not that big a deal. I never knew there was any question about the continent status of Australia. My atlas has Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Fiji, etc. under the heading 'Australia & Oceania'. I often sea Europe and Asia considered together as Eurasia, which makes sense since there are no bodies of water splitting one from the other. Let's just go with your Eurasia/Africa/North America/South America/Antarctica proposal. If a lot of people complain about the omission about Australia, we can add it next time around--we'll let the deciding test for continenthood be a purely pragmatic one: fewest number of email complaints. --Chris |
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-08 15:12:40
|
Chris: > Let's just go with your Eurasia/Africa/North America/South > America/Antarctica proposal. If a lot of people complain about the > omission about Australia, we can add it next time around--we'll let the > deciding test for continenthood be a purely pragmatic one: fewest number > of email complaints. Of course if we go for Eurasia, we're no longer listing the conventional continents, so there's actually no problem with adding Australia, now I think about it - we just have a list of named large land masses, some of which are continents and some of which aren't. The labelling's easier using Australia rather than Australasia, the Aussies are happy, and we've shaken ourselves loose from any worries about "correct" usage in a continent list. (Sorry, I seem to have revolved in a circle on this, but that's negotated solutions for you ...) I'll prepare a revised file without Europe and Asia, but with Eurasia and Australia and e-mail it to you (or I can commit it myself if you let me know where to put it). But before that, what do you feel about Fridger's remarks? There's certainly a case for omitting this sort of "gross" Earth labelling entirely, as being entirely uninformative - it's really only there for internal consistency. But I think Fridger's capital list (though rather splendid) would only be a suitable substitute if we can get some sort of Importance grading scheme going to eliminate the overlapping clutter in the Caribbean and elsewhere. I think a simple weighting by population could do the trick, and Fridger already has those data to hand for most capitals, I understand. Grant |
From: Don G. <do...@do...> - 2003-12-08 15:56:30
|
Just a short comment from one user who likes the Locations feature, and found the "continent" list to be a bit sparse ... I like Fridger's Capital list and the idea of weighting (Importance or Size) based on population. It is of a fairly small file size and gives users something to think about when they turn on Earth Locations. -Don G. PS. Chris, hope you had a fun and relaxing time in Whistler. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Hutchison" <gra...@bl...> To: "Chris Laurel" <cl...@ww...> Cc: "Celestia Developers" <cel...@li...> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2003 8:12 AM Subject: [Celestia-developers] Re: Small locations files > Chris: > > Let's just go with your Eurasia/Africa/North America/South > > America/Antarctica proposal. If a lot of people complain about the > > omission about Australia, we can add it next time around--we'll let the > > deciding test for continenthood be a purely pragmatic one: fewest number > > of email complaints. > Of course if we go for Eurasia, we're no longer listing the conventional > continents, so there's actually no problem with adding Australia, now I > think about it - we just have a list of named large land masses, some of > which are continents and some of which aren't. The labelling's easier using > Australia rather than Australasia, the Aussies are happy, and we've shaken > ourselves loose from any worries about "correct" usage in a continent list. > (Sorry, I seem to have revolved in a circle on this, but that's negotated > solutions for you ...) I'll prepare a revised file without Europe and Asia, > but with Eurasia and Australia and e-mail it to you (or I can commit it > myself if you let me know where to put it). > But before that, what do you feel about Fridger's remarks? There's certainly > a case for omitting this sort of "gross" Earth labelling entirely, as being > entirely uninformative - it's really only there for internal consistency. > But I think Fridger's capital list (though rather splendid) would only be a > suitable substitute if we can get some sort of Importance grading scheme > going to eliminate the overlapping clutter in the Caribbean and elsewhere. I > think a simple weighting by population could do the trick, and Fridger > already has those data to hand for most capitals, I understand. > > Grant > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Celestia-developers mailing list > Cel...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers > |
From: Chris L. <cl...@ww...> - 2003-12-09 20:14:32
|
On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Grant Hutchison wrote: > Chris: > > Let's just go with your Eurasia/Africa/North America/South > > America/Antarctica proposal. If a lot of people complain about the > > omission about Australia, we can add it next time around--we'll let the > > deciding test for continenthood be a purely pragmatic one: fewest number > > of email complaints. > Of course if we go for Eurasia, we're no longer listing the conventional > continents, so there's actually no problem with adding Australia, now I > think about it - we just have a list of named large land masses, some of > which are continents and some of which aren't. The labelling's easier using > Australia rather than Australasia, the Aussies are happy, and we've shaken > ourselves loose from any worries about "correct" usage in a continent list. > (Sorry, I seem to have revolved in a circle on this, but that's negotated > solutions for you ...) I'll prepare a revised file without Europe and Asia, > but with Eurasia and Australia and e-mail it to you (or I can commit it > myself if you let me know where to put it). Put it in the data directory with a file name of your choosing. Then modify the SolarSystemCatalogs line in celestia.cfg to include the file. > But before that, what do you feel about Fridger's remarks? There's certainly > a case for omitting this sort of "gross" Earth labelling entirely, as being > entirely uninformative - it's really only there for internal consistency. > But I think Fridger's capital list (though rather splendid) would only be a > suitable substitute if we can get some sort of Importance grading scheme > going to eliminate the overlapping clutter in the Caribbean and elsewhere. I > think a simple weighting by population could do the trick, and Fridger > already has those data to hand for most capitals, I understand. It seems worthwhile to include both, with the capitals in a separate file. And yes, I think that a population-derived importance is critical for a locations file that is to be included in the base distribution. --Chris |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-09 21:03:14
|
Chris Laurel wrote: > > On Mon, 8 Dec 2003, Grant Hutchison wrote: > > > Chris: > > > Let's just go with your Eurasia/Africa/North America/South > > > America/Antarctica proposal. If a lot of people complain about the > > > omission about Australia, we can add it next time around--we'll let the > > > deciding test for continenthood be a purely pragmatic one: fewest number > > > of email complaints. > > Of course if we go for Eurasia, we're no longer listing the conventional > > continents, so there's actually no problem with adding Australia, now I > > think about it - we just have a list of named large land masses, some of > > which are continents and some of which aren't. The labelling's easier using > > Australia rather than Australasia, the Aussies are happy, and we've shaken > > ourselves loose from any worries about "correct" usage in a continent list. > > (Sorry, I seem to have revolved in a circle on this, but that's negotated > > solutions for you ...) I'll prepare a revised file without Europe and Asia, > > but with Eurasia and Australia and e-mail it to you (or I can commit it > > myself if you let me know where to put it). > > Put it in the data directory with a file name of your choosing. Then > modify the SolarSystemCatalogs line in celestia.cfg to include the file. > > > But before that, what do you feel about Fridger's remarks? There's certainly > > a case for omitting this sort of "gross" Earth labelling entirely, as being > > entirely uninformative - it's really only there for internal consistency. > > But I think Fridger's capital list (though rather splendid) would only be a > > suitable substitute if we can get some sort of Importance grading scheme > > going to eliminate the overlapping clutter in the Caribbean and elsewhere. I > > think a simple weighting by population could do the trick, and Fridger > > already has those data to hand for most capitals, I understand. > > It seems worthwhile to include both, with the capitals in a separate file. > And yes, I think that a population-derived importance is critical for a > locations file that is to be included in the base distribution. > > --Chris > After working on this issue yesterday, I found a somewhat depressing result: I only have the inhabitants of 155 out of 240 capitals at my disposal. After that result I went to bed;-) The big cities I all have, it's the exotics that are lacking. We might just boldly assume some numbers, but looking up O(100) entries e.g. in Thesaurus is too much for my taste... Any ideas? Bye Fridger |
From: Chris L. <cl...@ww...> - 2003-12-10 05:57:53
|
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003, Fridger Schrempp wrote: > After working on this issue yesterday, I found a somewhat depressing result: I > only have the inhabitants of 155 out of 240 capitals at my disposal. After that > result I went to bed;-) > > The big cities I all have, it's the exotics that are lacking. We might just > boldly assume some numbers, but looking up O(100) entries e.g. in Thesaurus is > too much for my taste... > > Any ideas? I think you've already suggested a good one: assume some numbers. Specifically, just assume that the missing capitals have low populations. We can amend the file later if we get better population data. --Chris |
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-09 21:47:41
|
Chris: > Put it in the data directory with a file name of your choosing. Then > modify the SolarSystemCatalogs line in celestia.cfg to include the file. Hmmm. I can't get it to work in the data directory, though the same file works fine from extras. I presume it's not loading in an appropriate order, since I can get individual location definitions to work when pasted into solarsys.ssc only if the location is placed *after* the body it applies to. But even if I give this file a name like zzz.ssc (which I presume should load it after solarsys.ssc), it still doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong? Grant |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-10 11:21:54
Attachments:
caps.txt.zip
caps-sorted.txt.zip
|
Grant, I now have a list with /inhabitants/, countries and 2 char country codes for 193 (out of our 240) world capitals. I attach it. Even if the inhabitant numbers are not very accurate, this should serve its purpose. Chris correctly suggests that for the missing inhabitant numbers, one might simply do importance = 1 (or 10? i.e. "small") if inhabitants unknown, else importance = inhabitants/1000 I'll code it in Perl tonight, using all provided info for a most complete identification. The slightly tricky part consists in taking account of possibly different syntax for the capitals...in the two files to be merged Note that in 'caps.txt' the capitals are alphabetically sorted within each "continent/global region"! In caps-sorted.txt, I sorted them alphabetically. Bye Fridger |
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-10 18:52:07
|
Fridger: > I now have a list with /inhabitants/, countries and 2 char country codes for > 193 (out of our 240) world capitals. I attach it. Thanks! I notice you have a double entry for Moscow - presumably because it features as both a European and Asian capital. There's also a non-number listed for the population of Palikir, Micronesia ("?"), and what seems to be a slightly nonstandard entry for Colombo: "Colombo;Sri Jayewardenepura Kotte (legislative) ;620000 ;Sri Lanka;LK" Apologies if these are planned entries and fully under your control, but I thought it might be worth flagging them up. I was just about to e-mail you with a population for the Sri Jayewardenepura Kotte suburb, which I thought might be one on your "unobtained" list: its population is 109000. If it's easy to do, feel free to send me a list of the capitals you're lacking figures for - I think, for instance, that it would be inappropriate to assign a small Importance value to either Cape Town (pop 2400000) or Bloemfontein (pop 300000), which are currently missing from your list. Grant |
From: Fridger S. <t0...@ma...> - 2003-12-10 19:41:14
Attachments:
caps3-sorted.txt.zip
|
Grant, thanks for your corrections! I was about to send you this afternoon already a much revised list, based on more reliable and more recent sources, # U.S. Census Bureau and Times Atlas of the World, tenth edition # UN population department # http://www.graphicmaps.com/capcitys.htm, and other sources to fill the missing entries, but then, for the rest of the day, there was "important business" going on in my office... I attach my latest list that for sure still has bugs. Notably, the population numbers seem more recent since they are consistently higher than the one I sent you before. I am sure you are --like me -- a fan of the heavy weight Times atlas;-) The list is also already prepared for easy Perl-exploitation...and contains quite a number of multiple-capital entries. The missing entries I completed largely from the huge data base of an amazing (free) project pursued since many years by a number of dedicated people on the WEB: 50000 cities and towns (!) with alternative (national, unicode) names, /long-lat coordinates/ AND /inhabitants (2003)/ (based on census input along with a population growth model), etc.. From a number of cross checks I made, this is quite serious work! The url is on my office computer...and I am at home now. I am in the process of 'Perling' the whole stuff now. Any changes in numbers can easily be made at any time at the "source file" level. Bye Fridger PS: This time, I have sorted wrto the second field (capitals), not the first one (countries). Grant Hutchison wrote: > > Fridger: > > I now have a list with /inhabitants/, countries and 2 char country codes > for > > 193 (out of our 240) world capitals. I attach it. > Thanks! > I notice you have a double entry for Moscow - presumably because it features > as both a European and Asian capital. There's also a non-number listed for > the population of Palikir, Micronesia ("?"), and what seems to be a slightly > nonstandard entry for Colombo: > > "Colombo;Sri Jayewardenepura Kotte (legislative) ;620000 ;Sri Lanka;LK" > > Apologies if these are planned entries and fully under your control, but I > thought it might be worth flagging them up. I was just about to e-mail you > with a population for the Sri Jayewardenepura Kotte suburb, which I thought > might be one on your "unobtained" list: its population is 109000. > If it's easy to do, feel free to send me a list of the capitals you're > lacking figures for - I think, for instance, that it would be inappropriate > to assign a small Importance value to either Cape Town (pop 2400000) or > Bloemfontein (pop 300000), which are currently missing from your list. > > Grant > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials. > Become an expert in LINUX or just sharpen your skills. Sign up for IBM's > Free Linux Tutorials. Learn everything from the bash shell to sys admin. > Click now! http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1278&alloc_id=3371&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Celestia-developers mailing list > Cel...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/celestia-developers |
From: Grant H. <gra...@bl...> - 2003-12-10 20:41:48
|
Fridger: A couple of misplaced delimiting commas in caps3-sorted.txt have caught my eye. The follow are the correct versions of the erroneous entries: Brunei Darussalam, Bandar Seri Begawan, 52300 Democratic Republic of the Congo, Kinshasa, 4655313 Grant |
From: Don G. <do...@do...> - 2003-12-10 22:31:43
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Thanks for the files Fridger. How did you know I hadn't re-installed perl on my new box? You been lookin' over my shoulder <laughing>? It's on my old PC for work I used to do, but not the new one. I'll have to get to that some day soon, but too busy to do it right now. I'm sure you don't need the likes of us Windoze users to test your script. We trust your knowledge and experience implicitly Fridger -- right <grin>? -Don G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fridger Schrempp" <t0...@ma...> To: "Grant Hutchison" <gra...@bl...> Cc: "Don Goyette" <do...@do...>; "Celestia Developers" <cel...@li...> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [Celestia-developers] Re: Small locations files > Since it is about time that also Windows fans install Perl;-), I send you as > motivation;-) my perl script and my source "locations data" about the 240 > capitals, on which it operates (via STDIN) as a reference. > > The output of the command > > cia-extract.pl < cia-locations.txt > > is 'earth-CIA.ssc', > > that you have received before. Perl is here assumed to be in /usr/bin, which > may be easily adapted. > > Bye Fridger |
From: Don G. <do...@do...> - 2003-12-10 19:52:02
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Good work Fridger! One more to check (no country code) ... Lhasa;140000 ;Tibet;- -Don G. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fridger Schrempp" <t0...@ma...> To: "Grant Hutchison" <gra...@bl...> Cc: "Chris Laurel" <cl...@ww...>; "Celestia Developers" <cel...@li...> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Celestia-developers] Re: Small locations files > Grant, > > I now have a list with /inhabitants/, countries and 2 char country codes for > 193 (out of our 240) world capitals. I attach it. Even if the inhabitant > numbers are not very accurate, this should serve its purpose. Chris correctly > suggests that for the missing inhabitant numbers, one might simply do > > importance = 1 (or 10? i.e. "small") if inhabitants unknown, else > importance = inhabitants/1000 > > I'll code it in Perl tonight, using all provided info for a most complete > identification. The slightly tricky part consists in taking account of possibly > different syntax for the capitals...in the two files to be merged > > Note that in 'caps.txt' the capitals are alphabetically sorted within each > "continent/global region"! In caps-sorted.txt, I sorted them alphabetically. > > Bye Fridger |