From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-07 14:28:55
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Can people, in particular representing Zotero and Mendeley, comment on this issue, and the strawman I float in the comments? <http://community.muohio.edu/blogs/darcusb/archives/2009/03/01/the-babel-of-citations> Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-10 21:42:08
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Bumping this, as I've not yet received any comments. On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > Can people, in particular representing Zotero and Mendeley, comment on > this issue, and the strawman I float in the comments? > > <http://community.muohio.edu/blogs/darcusb/archives/2009/03/01/the-babel-of-citations> > > Bruce > |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-15 19:59:45
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OK, no comments. So for sake of argument, any objections to me just changing all "http://zotero.org/styles" strings to "http://citationstyles.org/styles" (or even some non-HTTP resolvable base?) and just let different implementation sort it out according to their own local needs? $ perl -pi -e 's/http:\/\/www.zotero.org\/styles/http:\/\/citationstyles.org\/styles/g' *.csl I've made the change, but just haven't committed it yet. On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > Bumping this, as I've not yet received any comments. > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: >> Can people, in particular representing Zotero and Mendeley, comment on >> this issue, and the strawman I float in the comments? >> >> <http://community.muohio.edu/blogs/darcusb/archives/2009/03/01/the-babel-of-citations> >> >> Bruce >> > |
From: Carles P. <car...@me...> - 2011-03-15 20:55:42
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Hi, On 15 March 2011 19:59, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > OK, no comments. > > So for sake of argument, any objections to me just changing all > "http://zotero.org/styles" strings to > "http://citationstyles.org/styles" (or even some non-HTTP resolvable > base?) and just let different implementation sort it out according to > their own local needs? Briefly: it's ok with us :-) (Mendeley) Side question: what is the current use of https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles ? I mean, regarding Zotero contributions. I see some activity, is all Zotero commits in 0.8 ported to the 1.0? Or only new 1.0 styles? -- Carles Pina | Software Engineer http://www.mendeley.com/profiles/Carles-Pina/ Mendeley Limited | London, UK | www.mendeley.com Registered in England and Wales | Company Number 6419015 |
From: Simon K. <si...@si...> - 2011-03-15 22:24:44
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Unless style URIs are dereferenceable URLs, automatic installation of the parents of dependent styles will break. We can either decide that style URIs are going to be dereferenceable URLs, modify the schema so that dependent styles will independently specify the URI and URL of their parents, or decide that dependent styles can only depend on styles in the citationstyles.org repo. I vote for the first option, since it doesn't require any changes and I'm not sure what we'd gain from the alternatives. Simon On Mar 15, 2011, at 3:59 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > OK, no comments. > > So for sake of argument, any objections to me just changing all > "http://zotero.org/styles" strings to > "http://citationstyles.org/styles" (or even some non-HTTP resolvable > base?) and just let different implementation sort it out according to > their own local needs? > > $ perl -pi -e 's/http:\/\/www.zotero.org\/styles/http:\/\/citationstyles.org\/styles/g' > *.csl > > I've made the change, but just haven't committed it yet. |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-15 22:55:12
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On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Kornblith <si...@si...> wrote: > Unless style URIs are dereferenceable URLs, automatic installation of the > parents of dependent styles will break. We can either decide that style URIs > are going to be dereferenceable URLs, modify the schema so that dependent > styles will independently specify the URI and URL of their parents, or > decide that dependent styles can only depend on styles in the > citationstyles.org repo. I vote for the first option, since it doesn't > require any changes and I'm not sure what we'd gain from the alternatives. So exactly what are you practically advocating for your preferred option? Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-15 23:07:06
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If we wanted to keep things as are with minimal work, we could just have ids like: <https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/apa.csl> Bruce |
From: Rintze Z. <rin...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 08:01:20
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On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Kornblith <si...@si...> > wrote: > > > Unless style URIs are dereferenceable URLs, automatic installation of the > > parents of dependent styles will break. We can either decide that style > URIs > > are going to be dereferenceable URLs, modify the schema so that dependent > > styles will independently specify the URI and URL of their parents, or > > decide that dependent styles can only depend on styles in the > > citationstyles.org repo. I vote for the first option, since it doesn't > > require any changes and I'm not sure what we'd gain from the > alternatives. > > So exactly what are you practically advocating for your preferred option? > Just noting that dependent styles currently include a single URL to the parent style (e.g. <link href="http://www.zotero.org/styles/vancouver" rel="independent-parent"/> ), and that the URI (id element) and URL (link element with rel="self") are, or in any case should be, the same for all styles obtained from the Zotero Style Repository (e.g. <id> http://www.zotero.org/styles/aacr</id> <link href=" http://www.zotero.org/styles/aacr" rel="self"/>). Rintze |
From: Simon K. <si...@si...> - 2011-03-16 15:00:39
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On Mar 15, 2011, at 6:55 PM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Simon Kornblith <si...@si...> wrote: > >> Unless style URIs are dereferenceable URLs, automatic installation of the >> parents of dependent styles will break. We can either decide that style URIs >> are going to be dereferenceable URLs, modify the schema so that dependent >> styles will independently specify the URI and URL of their parents, or >> decide that dependent styles can only depend on styles in the >> citationstyles.org repo. I vote for the first option, since it doesn't >> require any changes and I'm not sure what we'd gain from the alternatives. > > So exactly what are you practically advocating for your preferred option? For independent style auto-install to work, we need to change the URIs (as you suggest), but the URIs need to be dereferenceable, i.e., you have to be able to load http://citationstyles.org/styles/chicago-note-bibliography in your browser and get the style. Thus, we need to change the repo base URI, and the new style URIs have to be HTTP resolvable. "http://citationstyles.org/styles" seems fine, although it has to actually work before the citationstyles.org repo will be able to serve dependent styles. I guess you may as well make the change now, since the current situation, in which the dependent styles refer to styles at zotero.org, is not desirable either. However, until the URIs are dereferenceable, to install a dependent style from the citationstyles.org repository, one would have to install the independent styles upon which it depends first. Simon |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 15:07:21
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On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Simon Kornblith <si...@si...> wrote: > For independent style auto-install to work, we need to change the URIs (as > you suggest), but the URIs need to be dereferenceable, i.e., you have to be > able to load http://citationstyles.org/styles/chicago-note-bibliography in > your browser and get the style. Thus, we need to change the repo base URI, > and the new style URIs have to be HTTP resolvable. > "http://citationstyles.org/styles" seems fine, although it has to actually > work before the citationstyles.org repo will be able to serve dependent > styles. > I guess you may as well make the change now, since the current situation, in > which the dependent styles refer to styles at zotero.org, is not desirable > either. However, until the URIs are dereferenceable, to install a dependent > style from the citationstyles.org repository, one would have to install the > independent styles upon which it depends first. So if we go this route, then we'd manage the style updating through github, but distribution through a separate service, much like how zotero currently does it? E.g. there's be a local repo somewhere off github which does a periodic pull? We could then add to that over time? Bruce |
From: Simon K. <si...@si...> - 2011-03-16 15:38:06
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On Mar 16, 2011, at 11:07 AM, Bruce D'Arcus wrote: > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Simon Kornblith <si...@si...> wrote: > >> For independent style auto-install to work, we need to change the URIs (as >> you suggest), but the URIs need to be dereferenceable, i.e., you have to be >> able to load http://citationstyles.org/styles/chicago-note-bibliography in >> your browser and get the style. Thus, we need to change the repo base URI, >> and the new style URIs have to be HTTP resolvable. >> "http://citationstyles.org/styles" seems fine, although it has to actually >> work before the citationstyles.org repo will be able to serve dependent >> styles. >> I guess you may as well make the change now, since the current situation, in >> which the dependent styles refer to styles at zotero.org, is not desirable >> either. However, until the URIs are dereferenceable, to install a dependent >> style from the citationstyles.org repository, one would have to install the >> independent styles upon which it depends first. > > So if we go this route, then we'd manage the style updating through > github, but distribution through a separate service, much like how > zotero currently does it? > > E.g. there's be a local repo somewhere off github which does a periodic pull? > > We could then add to that over time? That's one option. Another option would be to make http://citationstyles.org/styles/* redirect somewhere at GitHub, if you can retrieve files from GitHub without specifying a changeset. Simon |
From: Avram L. <aj...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 15:45:25
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2011/3/16 Simon Kornblith <si...@si...>: > That's one option. Another option would be to make > http://citationstyles.org/styles/* redirect somewhere at GitHub, if you can > retrieve files from GitHub without specifying a changeset. That can definitely be done. And I agree that a redirect here is definitely the way to go, if the authoritative repository will be on Github. Avram |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 16:03:40
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Github has cname custom domain support, and pretty cool pages (using Jekyll; static pages but with tons of flexibility). And you don't need a sha1 to refer to the head. So that's not an issue. I'm not sure about local redirects though. Maybe I should post a support request with github to get suggestions? If I do, what should I specify we need? Bruce On Mar 16, 2011 11:45 AM, "Avram Lyon" <aj...@gm...> wrote: > 2011/3/16 Simon Kornblith <si...@si...>: >> That's one option. Another option would be to make >> http://citationstyles.org/styles/* redirect somewhere at GitHub, if you can >> retrieve files from GitHub without specifying a changeset. > > That can definitely be done. And I agree that a redirect here is > definitely the way to go, if the authoritative repository will be on > Github. > > Avram > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Colocation vs. Managed Hosting > A question and answer guide to determining the best fit > for your organization - today and in the future. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/internap-sfd2d > _______________________________________________ > xbiblio-devel mailing list > xbi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel |
From: Avram L. <aj...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 16:12:18
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2011/3/16 Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...>: > Github has cname custom domain support, and pretty cool pages (using Jekyll; > static pages but with tons of flexibility). > > And you don't need a sha1 to refer to the head. So that's not an issue. > > I'm not sure about local redirects though. > > Maybe I should post a support request with github to get suggestions? If I > do, what should I specify we need? What about making a subdomain of citationstyles.org for this, so you can use Github directly with some DNS magic, a local repository, or a system of 302 redirects? Such a system could be launched immediately using one of these solutions, and the backend solution could be replaced without requiring changes to existing styles. The only drawback I see to local redirects is that it could mean millions of hits by clients looking for updated styles -- a subdomain might let us shift that traffic to Github's servers (leaving only the manageable traffic of DNS lookups). Avram |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 16:56:27
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On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Avram Lyon <aj...@gm...> wrote: > 2011/3/16 Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...>: >> Github has cname custom domain support, and pretty cool pages (using Jekyll; >> static pages but with tons of flexibility). >> >> And you don't need a sha1 to refer to the head. So that's not an issue. >> >> I'm not sure about local redirects though. >> >> Maybe I should post a support request with github to get suggestions? If I >> do, what should I specify we need? > > What about making a subdomain of citationstyles.org for this, so you > can use Github directly with some DNS magic, a local repository, or a > system of 302 redirects? Such a system could be launched immediately > using one of these solutions, and the backend solution could be > replaced without requiring changes to existing styles. > > The only drawback I see to local redirects is that it could mean > millions of hits by clients looking for updated styles -- a subdomain > might let us shift that traffic to Github's servers (leaving only the > manageable traffic of DNS lookups). I don't understand the details of what you're suggesting. But let's sketch out options a bit. Here's how you get the latest API styles from the repo now: <https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/blob/master/apa.csl> If I setup github pages for the citation-style-language org, the base uri would be: http://citation-style-language.github.com The content for that subdomain would be itself a git repository, which allows a few things: You can define templates, and attach files to those templates. For example, you could have a markdown file: >>> ---- title: Foo layout: default ---- # Introduction Hello, world! <<< ... and when you push it to github, jekyll will process the markdown, and then pass it off to the _layouts/default.html template. This works for regular pages, as well as blog posts. To create a blog post, then, you just add a markdown file like _posts/2011-03-14-hello-world.md, and it'll automatically render, etc. It could also, BTW, be adapted to deal with really any layout stuff, including potentially CSL pages with previews (so long as the previews are pre-compiled as HTML or markdown, I guess, or there was some way to hook up citeproc-js for clientside previewing). Finally, we could do CNAME setup such that citationstyles.org maps to http://citation-style-language.github.com. So I think (though am not sure) it'd be trivial now to serve from github styles like: http://citationstyles.org/styles/blob/master/apa.csl So first question is if we want to do this? Second is whether we want/need to remove the "blob/master" bits through redirects? Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 17:04:36
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Correction: On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 12:56 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > So I think (though am not sure) it'd be trivial now to serve from > github styles like: > > http://citationstyles.org/styles/blob/master/apa.csl Replace "blob" with "raw." <https://github.com/citation-style-language/styles/raw/master/apa.csl> Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 17:06:40
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Seems no redirects (yet): <http://support.github.com/discussions/site/2954-github-pages-http-redirect> Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 19:37:14
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Also, there's project pages as well, where you can put stuff that should be published from there in a gh-pages branch. <http://pages.github.com/> So I guess we could use both the org and project pages features. So we could map http://citationstyles.org to http://citation-style-language.github.com, and then presumably the org project sites would naturally map to: http://citationstyles.org/styles/ http://citationstyles.org/schema/ etc. Not sure how the latter relates to actual files in the master branch though (hg-pages branch get published, can you link in blobs from the master branch?). Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 19:55:38
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On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > Also, there's project pages as well, where you can put stuff that > should be published from there in a gh-pages branch. > > <http://pages.github.com/> Here's a project page github (mostly) automatically creates: <http://citation-style-language.github.com/styles/> To get the branch, you can do: $ git pull origin gh-pages There's just a single index.html file, with embedded (in the head) CSS. Feel free to edit it. Bruce |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-16 20:09:14
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On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: ... > Not sure how the latter relates to actual files in the master branch > though (hg-pages branch get published, can you link in blobs from the > master branch?). According to this, no, but there are other ways: <http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1705224/github-how-to-include-files-from-master-in-new-git-branch-gh-pages> It seems one option is to just have gh-pages as the default branch, and put everything (to be published) there. Bruce |
From: Ron <ro...@gm...> - 2011-03-18 17:46:40
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Sorry I came to this party a bit late, but I've been on vacation... The other thing to keep in mind about serving styles directly from github is their access rate limits. I ran into the 60 request/minute API limit, and I'd be willing to bet if millions of clients suddenly start to check and update styles, neither the github folks nor the clients will be too happy. Ron. On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...> wrote: > > ... > > > Not sure how the latter relates to actual files in the master branch > > though (hg-pages branch get published, can you link in blobs from the > > master branch?). > > According to this, no, but there are other ways: > > < > http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1705224/github-how-to-include-files-from-master-in-new-git-branch-gh-pages > > > > It seems one option is to just have gh-pages as the default branch, > and put everything (to be published) there. > > Bruce > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Colocation vs. Managed Hosting > A question and answer guide to determining the best fit > for your organization - today and in the future. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/internap-sfd2d > _______________________________________________ > xbiblio-devel mailing list > xbi...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel > |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-18 20:12:12
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 1:46 PM, Ron <ro...@gm...> wrote: > Sorry I came to this party a bit late, but I've been on vacation... > > The other thing to keep in mind about serving styles directly from github is > their access rate limits. I ran into the 60 request/minute API limit, and > I'd be willing to bet if millions of clients suddenly start to check and > update styles, neither the github folks nor the clients will be too happy. Is that true for static pages as well, or just for hitting the API? In any case, perhaps we can proceed in such a way that we can easily switch over to dedicated hosting if the need arises? Bruce |
From: Avram L. <aj...@gm...> - 2011-03-18 20:20:13
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2011/3/18 Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...>: > In any case, perhaps we can proceed in such a way that we can easily > switch over to dedicated hosting if the need arises? This is why I thought that somehow the base URI really ought to be a subdomain of citationstyles.org -- it's the only way to move these hits off of citationstyles.org the website without committing to a single external hosting service. repository.citationstyles.org/chicago.csl sounds good to me. It would still be possible to use redirects to continue hosting at Github, or the subdomain could refer to a server [probably a vhost, of course] run by some other generous host (Zotero? Mendeley? Mekentosj? Colwiz? Pandoc?), so that the zero-revenue CSL organization doesn't have to bear any costs beyond domain registration. Avram |
From: Bruce D'A. <bd...@gm...> - 2011-03-18 21:34:45
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 4:19 PM, Avram Lyon <aj...@gm...> wrote: > 2011/3/18 Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...>: >> In any case, perhaps we can proceed in such a way that we can easily >> switch over to dedicated hosting if the need arises? > > This is why I thought that somehow the base URI really ought to be a > subdomain of citationstyles.org -- it's the only way to move these > hits off of citationstyles.org the website without committing to a > single external hosting service. I'm not committed to keeping the existing citationstyles.org wordpress site though. I much prefer to do blogging through something like jekyll. In any case, that's a separate issue from the bigger questions here about the actual styles (and hopefully later, the editor). > repository.citationstyles.org/chicago.csl sounds good to me. > > It would still be possible to use redirects to continue hosting at > Github, Does github really allow that? > or the subdomain could refer to a server [probably a vhost, of > course] run by some other generous host (Zotero? Mendeley? Mekentosj? > Colwiz? Pandoc?), so that the zero-revenue CSL organization doesn't > have to bear any costs beyond domain registration. Right. I think if we do hosting off github, it makes sense to have the CDS deal with it, given it's a non-profit, but has excellent technical infrastructure. That's how citationstyles.org is currently hosted. Bruce |
From: Avram L. <aj...@gm...> - 2011-03-18 21:43:17
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2011/3/19 Bruce D'Arcus <bd...@gm...>: >> It would still be possible to use redirects to continue hosting at >> Github, > > Does github really allow that? If the millions of hits are not a problem, citationstyles.org could serve 302 redirects for styles that need to be picked up from Github, and 304 for ones that haven't been changed since the last update. In general, style-consuming clients should be conservative in their requests and should, I hope, be able to send If-Modified-Since headers. This would still be a meaningful load on the servers, but the actual file serving could be off-loaded to Github, reducing bandwidth usage and perhaps simplifying the infrastructure; citationstyles.org would still need some custom kit to serve this way, and it would have to be kept abreast of Github commits, so as to send 302/304 as appropriate. But CDS, possibly with some donations to CDS for this purpose from the other CSL users, sounds like a perfectly reasonable home. Avram |