xpipe-developers Mailing List for xpipe

SourceForge Headquarters 1320 Columbia Street Suite 310 San Diego, CA 92101 +1 (858) 422-6466

Notice:

Postings to the XPipe developers and users lists are now approved on a message
by message basis to cut out the spam that has been growing lately.

regards,
list admistrator
Sean McGrath

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 [(PO1:KJ)_8J7BJK9^":}H&*TG0BK5NKIYs5]

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<td bgcolor="#000000" width="505"><font face=Verdana size="3"><b>
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<table border=0 width=100%>
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     <a style="color: #FF0000" href="http://dave.mothost.com">Second Mortgage</a></th>
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</table> 
<blockquote>
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Sounds like a good plan Sean. 

-----Original Message-----
From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...]On Behalf Of Sean
McGrath
Sent: 30 July 2002 20:11
To: xpi...@li...
Subject: RE: [Xpipe-developers] I see the light or do I?

[Tony Redmond]

> >       For example, a unit test may consist of a DTD
> > that validates the input to a unit test and a DTD that
> > validates the output of a unit test. The unit test itself
> > calls the XComponent to which the unit test is attached.

I have a suggestion for how the unit test "calls" the XComponent.

The unit testing framework creates an XPipe on the fly - of length 1 - the 
XComponent
to be tested. It then invokes the XPipe engine feeding it the test inputs
and checking the real test outputs against the desired outputs.

In other words, the Unit testing framework sits on top of the
XPipe engine. One engine two environments - unit test (developer),
real user files (user).

How does that sound?

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[Tony Redmond]

> >       For example, a unit test may consist of a DTD
> > that validates the input to a unit test and a DTD that
> > validates the output of a unit test. The unit test itself
> > calls the XComponent to which the unit test is attached.

I have a suggestion for how the unit test "calls" the XComponent.

The unit testing framework creates an XPipe on the fly - of length 1 - the 
XComponent
to be tested. It then invokes the XPipe engine feeding it the test inputs
and checking the real test outputs against the desired outputs.

In other words, the Unit testing framework sits on top of the
XPipe engine. One engine two environments - unit test (developer),
real user files (user).

How does that sound?

> Tony Redmond
>
> OK, I think I have it - the key to understanding pre and post=20
> conditions is to separate the idea of developing an XPipe=20
> engine from an XPipe creation environment. If you wish to=20
> create a new XComponent, you will of course want to test that=20
> component based on certain inputs. This is fine. Therefore a=20
> unit test is executed on an individual separated XComponent.=20
> This means that for example in a 20-stage pipe, an individual=20
> component cannot be tested in the middle of a pipe. It=92s a=20
> proper unit test =96 not an error logging system.

Exactly. At a coarser grain, it's going to be useful to be able to write
a test for an entire XPipe or a sequence of XComponents. This goes back
to idea of being able to treat XPipes and XComponents as the same
syntactic 'stuff'; not only is it useful for composition, it aids
development (for those who want to write tests; in the java open source
world, JUnit is de facto).

> 	For example, a unit test may consist of a DTD=20
> that validates the input to a unit test and a DTD that=20
> validates the output of a unit test. The unit test itself=20
> calls the XComponent to which the unit test is attached.

It might be worth looking at Eric Van der Vlist's XSLTUnit for this,
given we're doing XML io: <http://xsltunit.org/>.

> 	The interface is more important here=20
> though because it must have a boolean return type =96 i.e.=20
> whether the post condition passed or failed. This is where=20
> implementations may differ but that's fine.

Maybe having pre and post events being fired off would be a nice to have
for pipe monitoring (we could model the event stream as a parallel XPipe
and thoroughly confuse ourselves... ;).

Bill

OK, I think I have it - the key to understanding pre and post conditions =
is
to separate the idea of developing an XPipe engine from an XPipe creation
environment. If you wish to create a new XComponent, you will of course w=
ant
to test that component based on certain inputs. This is fine. Therefore a
unit test is executed on an individual separated XComponent. This means t=
hat
for example in a 20-stage pipe, an individual component cannot be tested =
in
the middle of a pipe. It=92s a proper unit test =96 not an error logging =
system.
	Also, the execution environment for the unit test is implied i.e. the
XComponent specification does not include code for the execution of the u=
nit
test - the environment handles it.
For example, a unit test may consist of a DTD that validates the input to=
 a
unit test and a DTD that validates the output of a unit test. The unit te=
st
itself calls the XComponent to which the unit test is attached. In such a
case, the unit test is considered true if the pre-condition DTD validates
the input, the unit test doesn=92t fail and the post-condition DTD valida=
tes
the output. If any one of these fail, the entire unit test fails. Any
environment that support XPipe unit test must be capable of calling the
XComponent implementation in question on it's own.
	Pre and Post Conditions are however capable of being Java Classes or Pyt=
hon
code. This means that any implementation of pre/post conditions from code
must support some form of interface (the same applies to actual XComponen=
ts
code). The interface is more important here though because it must have a
boolean return type =96 i.e. whether the post condition passed or failed.=
 This
is where implementations may differ but that's fine.

T.

> Tony Redmond
>
> 	On a more philosophical point - does it not seem 
> overkill to have unit tests with pre/post conditions? You 
> could argue that if the unit test is going to access a 
> database for example that the existence of a database should 
> exist before you run the test (and hence a pre-condition). 
> However, if you write a Java class that does the unit test 
> then the code to access the database has to be in the unit 
> test code. Personally, I'm always going to check if a 
> database exists at the point that I want to gain access to 
> the database - not in another piece of code. Therefore I'd 
> argue that the pre/post conditions for unit tests is 
> overkill. Unit tests to aid the debugging process is fine but 
> to do tests on the unit test that test the XComponents seems 
> to be overkill.

A strawman split; pre and post conditions test running code is always in
a legal state; unit tests test the behaviour of code units for a given
state. Conditions are for helping the users, tests are for helping
developers. You want both; both are valuable, and we shouldn't let the
fact they both use asserts distract us. 

Let's use the DB example to distinguish them - In released code we would
like to have a pre condition that checks for a database connection and
have the condition do something appropriate when it fails. Similarly we
would like to do something sane on a rollback. But in development,
perhaps we don't need to connect to a db to run tests or develop code.
Once we know we can make a connection we should be able get on with
developing the code, preferably with a mock database connection - thus,
we unit test the code, not database connectivity. There's nothing worse
than stepping through a battery of failing tests fail only to find the
DB server is down, except not being able to develop without a live DB
connection in the first place. We can now see that there are
circumstances in development where we would like to turn off pre
conditions (especially those that are verifying the environment is as it
should be, as opposed to verifying the input is as it should be).
Moreover, in development we want to be able to test what happens when
the pre and post conditions are busted or even turned off. We can't
actually do that with the pre conditions themselves. We need tests.
While we don't run unit tests in a running XPipe system, we do want to
hand over the unit tests to a user, so they can run the tests on their
environment before sparking up (a form of regression testing). Again
that's not something we do straightforwardly with pre and post
conditions.

So perhaps rather than pre and post conditions, a unit test require a
setup phase. Since at some point you have to come out of the machine and
do an eyeball test, arguably we just inspect that the setup is ok. If we
find that bad setups keep breaking the tests, that's probably
information about the code, not our eyes. Personally I swear by the
xUnit frameworks for python and java; my experience with them is that
I've never needed to test a test, but I've often needed to eliminate
assumptions in my code about the environment, because that's what my
non-starter tests were telling me to do.

Here's an article by Steve Freeman about writing database code without a
database: <http://www.mockobjects.com/papers/jdbc_testfirst.html>

Bill

Over the last few days I've spent a bit of time trying to get my head around
the unit tests structure. Being interested in the complexity of having an
xcomponent with pre/post conditions and then having a whole series of unit
tests around the xcomponent with pre/post conditions and then having
pre/post conditions around the unit tests, I was left feeling that the model
is either over-complicated or maybe we just need some documentation to
explain the unit test concept.
	It would appear that unit tests are used for run-time debugging and need to
be able to be turned off. To me if they are not off by default in an XPipe
engine, then it's going to be a very slow execution (time doing transform vs
all the stuff around transform). Next, if they are turned on, are they all
turned on? or can just one be turned on? or can just one unit test for one
XComponent be turned on?
	On a more philosophical point - does it not seem overkill to have unit
tests with pre/post conditions? You could argue that if the unit test is
going to access a database for example that the existence of a database
should exist before you run the test (and hence a pre-condition). However,
if you write a Java class that does the unit test then the code to access
the database has to be in the unit test code. Personally, I'm always going
to check if a database exists at the point that I want to gain access to the
database - not in another piece of code. Therefore I'd argue that the
pre/post conditions for unit tests is overkill. Unit tests to aid the
debugging process is fine but to do tests on the unit test that test the
XComponents seems to be overkill.
	I'm sure I'm missing something here but I'd like someone to explain it to
me...

T.

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9883pdyl7

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All you really need by way of pre and post for unit tests is setup and
teardown; that way you don't have to manage the order the tests run in.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...] On Behalf Of Tony
Redmond
Sent: 24 July 2002 15:24
To: xpi...@li...
Subject: RE: [Xpipe-developers] Pre and post Conditions in Unit Tests

    I agree on the pre/post conditions on the actual XComponent. When it
comes to unit tests though surely a unit test doesn't need to have a
pre/post condition on it. A unit test either is true or false. To me it
looks like there are too many levels of code around an actual XComponent
which strains the simplicity of the model.  We could go on forever
checking the checks on the checks on the checks on the XComponents.
Personally, I think a line should be drawn at the unit tests as I don't
think there should be pre-conditions and post-conditions on unit
tests...

T.

 -----Original Message-----
From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...]On Behalf Of David
Starr
Sent: 24 July 2002 15:03
To: Michael Coughlan; xpi...@li...
Subject: RE: [Xpipe-developers] Pre and post Conditions in Unit Tests

I always imagined that the pre/post conditions for an XComponent or an
XPipe were an implementation of programming by contract.  It's like the
same feature in languages like Eifel.  These could be useful for
ensuring that input is valid wrt some schema prior to processing, or
that the output was valid subsequent to passing it on.  Similarly it
could be used to evaluate any finer grained constraint to ensure that
the XComponent is only ever executed on input for which it is known to
generate correct results.  

The pre/post conditions on tests serve a different purpose.  These are
the means to determine whether the test passed or failed.

-----Original Message-----
From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...]On Behalf Of
Michael Coughlan
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:15 AM
To: xpi...@li...
Subject: [Xpipe-developers] Pre and post Conditions in Unit Tests

According to the specification for XComponents, it can have multiple
UnitTests associated with it. This obviously enables an Xcomponent to be
tested by the XPipe engine before running it as a transformation stage
in an Xpipe. A Unit Test, by definition has pre and post conditions. The
XComponent itself has pre and post conditions also. Is it not overkill,
for a unit test to have pre and post conditions ?? 

Your thoughts please.

    I agree on the pre/post conditions on the actual XComponent. When it
comes to unit tests though surely a unit test doesn't need to have a
pre/post condition on it. A unit test either is true or false. To me it
looks like there are too many levels of code around an actual XComponent
which strains the simplicity of the model.  We could go on forever checking
the checks on the checks on the checks on the XComponents. Personally, I
think a line should be drawn at the unit tests as I don't think there should
be pre-conditions and post-conditions on unit tests...

T.

 -----Original Message-----
From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...]On Behalf Of David
Starr
Sent: 24 July 2002 15:03
To: Michael Coughlan; xpi...@li...
Subject: RE: [Xpipe-developers] Pre and post Conditions in Unit Tests

  I always imagined that the pre/post conditions for an XComponent or an
XPipe were an implementation of programming by contract.  It's like the same
feature in languages like Eifel.  These could be useful for ensuring that
input is valid wrt some schema prior to processing, or that the output was
valid subsequent to passing it on.  Similarly it could be used to evaluate
any finer grained constraint to ensure that the XComponent is only ever
executed on input for which it is known to generate correct results.

  The pre/post conditions on tests serve a different purpose.  These are the
means to determine whether the test passed or failed.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...]On Behalf Of Michael
Coughlan
    Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:15 AM
    To: xpi...@li...
    Subject: [Xpipe-developers] Pre and post Conditions in Unit Tests

    According to the specification for XComponents, it can have multiple
UnitTests associated with it. This obviously enables an Xcomponent to be
tested by the XPipe engine before running it as a transformation stage in an
Xpipe. A Unit Test, by definition has pre and post conditions. The
XComponent itself has pre and post conditions also. Is it not overkill, for
a unit test to have pre and post conditions ??

    Your thoughts please.

I always imagined that the pre/post conditions for an XComponent or an XPipe
were an implementation of programming by contract.  It's like the same
feature in languages like Eifel.  These could be useful for ensuring that
input is valid wrt some schema prior to processing, or that the output was
valid subsequent to passing it on.  Similarly it could be used to evaluate
any finer grained constraint to ensure that the XComponent is only ever
executed on input for which it is known to generate correct results.

The pre/post conditions on tests serve a different purpose.  These are the
means to determine whether the test passed or failed.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: xpi...@li...
[mailto:xpi...@li...]On Behalf Of Michael
Coughlan
  Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2002 9:15 AM
  To: xpi...@li...
  Subject: [Xpipe-developers] Pre and post Conditions in Unit Tests

  According to the specification for XComponents, it can have multiple
UnitTests associated with it. This obviously enables an Xcomponent to be
tested by the XPipe engine before running it as a transformation stage in an
Xpipe. A Unit Test, by definition has pre and post conditions. The
XComponent itself has pre and post conditions also. Is it not overkill, for
a unit test to have pre and post conditions ??

  Your thoughts please.

At 14:15 24/07/2002 +0100, Michael Coughlan wrote:
>According to the specification for XComponents, it can have multiple 
>UnitTests associated with it. This obviously enables an Xcomponent to be 
>tested by the XPipe engine before running it as a transformation stage in 
>an Xpipe. A Unit Test, by definition has pre and post conditions. The 
>XComponent itself has pre and post conditions also. Is it not overkill, 
>for a unit test to have pre and post conditions ??
>
>Your thoughts please.
>

The idea of the pre-condition on a unit test is to allow you to test 
something known to be a pre-requisite to executing
the test case. For example, an XComponent unit test that will connect to 
JDBC source FOO can only be
executed if FOO exists.

The idea of the post-condition on a unit test is to allow you to test for 
desired side-effects of executing an XComponent. For
example, if an XComponent creates a copy of its input file on a WebDav 
server somewhere, the post-condition could be a
test to ensure the file has been written to the WebDav server sucessfully.

Maybe this is making XComponents too clever?

Sean

According to the specification for XComponents, it can have multiple =
UnitTests associated with it. This obviously enables an Xcomponent to be =
tested by the XPipe engine before running it as a transformation stage =
in an Xpipe. A Unit Test, by definition has pre and post conditions. The =
XComponent itself has pre and post conditions also. Is it not overkill, =
for a unit test to have pre and post conditions ??=20

Your thoughts please.

At 10:11 24/07/2002 +0100, Bill de h=D3ra wrote:

>As for orchestration, if orchestration means ordering a set of
>functions, that implies either a scripting language or a way to declare
>dependencies a la make. The WS* specs can call it what they like, but
>they'll deliver one or the other.

I think this standardised approach to orchestration (if it happens) will be=
 the
real advance out of the whole Web Services thing.

There is always a tension between declarative and imperative syntaxes (read=
=20
"xml" or "scripting language")
for orchestration.

If you push too far towards XML you end up with XML based programming=20
languages. This is a well
worn path and the results are not generally terribly well received. For=20
example MID from
the SGML days is the earliest one I can remember. Basically as soon as you=
=20
add a tag
called <if> or <choice> of <while>, you are on a slippery slope to=20
re-inventing yet another
(bad) programming language.

On the other hand, if you go too far the other way, everything gets buried=
=20
in code :-/.

Whats needed in a hybrid approach I think. Historically Javascript has=
 served
as an imperative environment embedded in markup (e.g. web browsers). Much as=
 I
dislike Javascript I would prefer to be able to use it to express "if x >=20
y" rather
than use tags for it.

Sooner or later,the world will realise that the ideal answer simply involves
declaring Python to be *the* universal, embeddable, platform neutral
  OO scripting language.

<grin/>

Sean

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