[xmlWiki-developers] Fw: Minutes; October 4th meeting

[Arnaldo C. <ar...@mi...>]

[19:01]   abe is now Available ()
[19:01]   kalafutj is now Available ()
[19:01]   ChrisHeistad is now Available ()
[19:01]   arnaldo is now Available ()
* abe has changed the subject to: Let's start with Roles
<abe> good evening guys!
<kalafutj> Hi everyone... be back in sec!
<ChrisHeistad> Hi
<arnaldo> Hey, fellas.
<abe> Hi Chris, did you get a chance to read last chat log? I think 
we covered some of your concerns...
<arnaldo> What about your play, Chris?
<abe> Hi Arnaldo.
<kalafutj> We'll give everyone couple minutes to get here, and I'm 
gonna get a beer :)
<ChrisHeistad> My wide got confused, it is next week.
<arnaldo> Hello, abe!
<arnaldo> What's the play?
<ChrisHeistad> oops that's wife not wide :-)
<arnaldo> I won't tell her about that typo. :)
<ChrisHeistad> Some play a guy wrote about Einstein meeting 
Freud.
<arnaldo> hm.
<ChrisHeistad> We gave some money so they gave use season 
tickets.
<arnaldo> nice!
<ChrisHeistad> I hope the plays are good
<arnaldo> I love watching plays & musicals.
<ChrisHeistad> What type do you like?
<arnaldo> Before I embraced my nerdiness, I wanted to be an 
actor.
<ChrisHeistad> Wow, thats unusual
<arnaldo> Pretty much anything that isn't based on shock value.
<arnaldo> I was president of the Theatre Club in High School...long 
story of the transition.
<ChrisHeistad> I see, my wife is a big fan of Broadway, she goes 
to NY a couple times a year just to see those.
<kalafutj> Are you guys all officially in the IMCS program?
<arnaldo> A kindred spirit.
<arnaldo> Yes, I'm officially in the IMCS program.
<ChrisHeistad> Yes, although I started off on campus, 3rd remote 
class.
<arnaldo> This is my sixth off-campus course in the program.
<kalafutj> I'm on my third class, and hopefully I get admitted... I just 
found out last Friday that the people who were going to send in 
references didn't!
<arnaldo> yuck.
<abe> Yes, I am. 1st remote.
<kalafutj> And my file is being reviewed this week...ugh...
<arnaldo> If anyone wants pointers on what courses to take, what 
profs are like for remote students, let me know.
<arnaldo> Sorry, Jim. That's tough.
<abe> What do you guys think of the work load? It seems to heavy 
for working professionals, in a downsized organization.
<ChrisHeistad> I think there is a good reason its a top five school :-)
<arnaldo> Indeed.
<arnaldo> In this course, all the work has some value, at least.
<arnaldo> I can't say that's been the case in every course I've taken
<ChrisHeistad> But yes it is difficult.
<kalafutj> I thought my OS course was a bit weak, but the 
homework kicked my butt and got me up to speed on Java...
<abe> I agree
<arnaldo> And, Prof Johnson is pretty terrific.
<ChrisHeistad> Was that Campbell?
<kalafutj> Yes to Campbell...didn't care for him.
<ChrisHeistad> He's pretty rough, I used to work with him at NCSA, 
did some work on Vosaic.
<abe> How would you compare other courses with this, i terms of 
work load?
<arnaldo> Frankly, the work load in this course seems to me lighter 
than others in the program.
<ChrisHeistad> I would say pretty typical, but Ralph grades pretty 
easy.
<kalafutj> This project could be a snake in the grass though...
<arnaldo> Not if we approach it correctly, I say.
<abe> Project will demand a lot of time
[19:12]   rdram is now Available ()
<arnaldo> We're primarily being graded on how closely we stick to 
the process, and on our own levels of individual contributions.
<kalafutj> Ralph OO course had a ton of homework, but at least with 
that you can chalk something up and done each week.
<arnaldo> Here is the one lesson I've learned on how to do well in 
this degree program:
<kalafutj> Hi radu
<rdram> Hi guys.
<arnaldo> I have taped to my monitor the grade breakdown for 
each semester.
<ChrisHeistad> What do you mean grade breakdown? The weights?
<arnaldo> No matter how important something seems, or how much 
the prof stresses it, prioritize based on its weightage in the final 
grade.
<arnaldo> Yes.
<arnaldo> That's my philosophy, anyway. Otherwise I just get 
swamped and don't manage to learn anything.
<kalafutj> I better get studying for the final...bye guys!
<arnaldo> hahaha
<rdram> Are you guys taking more than this course?
<kalafutj> Talk about roles now?
<arnaldo> Yeah, I'm in 497. Let's talk about roles.
<arnaldo> So, only Deborah and Bola are missing, right?
<rdram> My preference: developer.
<rdram> And Hugo.
<ChrisHeistad> I thought you'd be manager?
<arnaldo> And Ward.
<rdram> I mean people missing from conference.
<abe> Ward will not be part of the project according to Hugo.
<arnaldo> Oh. I must have missed that email.
<kalafutj> Ditto
<abe> Yesterday's chat, in the very end....
[19:18]   arnaldo wants to chat (chat)
[19:18]   arnaldo wants to chat (chat)
[19:18]   arnaldo is now Available ()
<arnaldo> Whoops.
<arnaldo> ok.
<arnaldo> Too bad; wouldn't have minded his experience.
<arnaldo> So, what roles are there, besides developer and 
manager?
<ChrisHeistad> What happened?
<abe> Hugo promised the log of his Chat with Ward and why he 
declined. Should be coming soon.
<arnaldo> ok.
<kalafutj> Arnaldo and I have talked about taking care of the 
administrative/scheduling/secretarial/etc. work....any objections?
<ChrisHeistad> Sounds good to me.
<rdram> Works for me.
[19:20]   elhugo is now Available ()
<abe> Let's get organized and discuss on Roles. I will reset the 
subject and we can become focused. Roles are posted here: 
http://xmlwiki.sourceforge.net/people.html. But needs some 
extensions in my pint of view.
* abe has changed the subject to: Roles
<arnaldo> Jim, I wanted to make sure that our two-person 
managerial-administrative arrangement would be OK with Andrew.
<elhugo> Hello
<kalafutj> Sure... we can more precisely divide it if he'd like.
<kalafutj> Hi Hugo.
<ChrisHeistad> Hi Hugo
<abe> We need manager, tracker, configuration controller,
<elhugo> What is a manager?
<arnaldo> What's a tracker?
<kalafutj> As SourceForge admin, I would pick up the configuration 
controller role (willingly)
<abe> and Coach, who should be Hugo, IMO.
<elhugo> A tracker is someone who takes cares of the metrics of 
the project.
<arnaldo> OK. I think that would fall under the 
managerial/administrative roles Jim and I envision absorbing.
<arnaldo> Any objections to taking that one, Jim?
<abe> We will have a project plan. Tasks (finisshed, unfinished) 
and iteration planning. Tracker does that.
<kalafutj> No problem...but what's a manager???
<elhugo> Is the Manager in XP the same role of mangager that you 
envision?
<arnaldo> Professor Johnson covered that on the third day of class.
<arnaldo> Just kidding. :)
<arnaldo> This is how I see a manager:
<arnaldo> For XP, anyway.
<kalafutj> I'm thinking businessy, money, hiring/firing, keep people 
and stakeholders happy, etc.
<arnaldo> In pair programming, there's one person hammering out 
code, and one person thinking of broader issues, etc.
<elhugo> Manager is not directly involved ion PP
<arnaldo> No, but I see it as an analogy for the whole project...
<abe> Manager, the unnecessary evil ( as a hacker, we should 
mistrut authority -- promote decentralization) see 
http://www.bartleby.com/66/84/35884.html 
<elhugo> Yet again he may be. It depends on the hierachy
<arnaldo> At the higher level, I see the "manager" in XP as being a 
bit more concerned about the broader issues, and the programmer 
is looking at the lines of code...same sort of thing.
<elhugo> So manager is more related to business? What is our 
business here?
<abe> XP Explained, chapter 22 Roles for People: only talks about 
the Programmer, Customer, Tester, Tracker, Coach, Consultant, 
Big Boss.
<arnaldo> Well, there's a sense in which the goal loaner is you, 
Hugo, and the "gold holder" is the course staff, who will be 
assigning us a grade.
<elhugo> You should really read XP Installed and Planning XP 
too....
<elhugo> So the manager is Andrew?
<kalafutj> Might be...never though of that, but it seems reasonable.
<abe> I have not stopped by the bookstore, yet. I will do it over the 
weekend...
<arnaldo> No. Andrew is the gold holder.
<kalafutj> But personnel issues would go through him too...
<arnaldo> yes. He's wearing multiple hats.
<arnaldo> OK. I'll be totally honest about what I *really* see as the 
role of a manager, though this probably isn't the right answer "by 
the book":
<elhugo> OK, in the "real" world, would the manager be handling 
the CVS tree?
<kalafutj> I don't think so.
<elhugo> So I guess we need a new name for the role that you 
envision?
<abe> Source controller
<arnaldo> I see the ideal manager as the "group servant" - gets the 
group what it needs from the gold holder or wherever else to get the 
job done.
<elhugo> I agree with arnaldo.
<arnaldo> Prof Johson gave the example of buying the group pizza 
when they have to work late; we won't have to do that, but I'd bet that 
there will be a lot of things that we can do.
<kalafutj> I can see that...do you think it applies to this project 
though?
<kalafutj> Since we all want to contribute technically, I mean.
<ChrisHeistad> Only if we need some server or resource, which is 
unlikely
<arnaldo> Absolutely. This course is a technical one, but not in the 
sense of learning a new technology...
<elhugo> He might be considered the business person with a title 
like "Project Manager" and most of the times he is not technical.
<abe> manager, will also handle coordination of efforts, facilite 
communication, report risks to customer (we are behind schedule, 
and things of this nature)
<elhugo> Also I have heard "Product Manager"
<arnaldo> in the sense of learning a new process. Another 
managerial role I see is that we would be focused on staying on 
track with the process.
<arnaldo> Bingo, abe. That's what I see, too.
<kalafutj> OK...so tracker and manager seem to be overlapping for 
our group (which is fine).
<abe> we have both one has the vision of the product line for R&D, 
marketing manager and the Project Manager (=tracker + some)
<elhugo> Now let us put this in the context of Open Source. Who is 
the manager?
<arnaldo> I'm not sure what you mean.
<elhugo> I agree with abe.
<elhugo> Is there a difference between a project in a Fortune 500 
and an Open Source project?
<abe> In an XP OpenSource project, there is a very special role: 
The Dictator. And only Generalissimo ElHugo can play this role. :-)
<arnaldo> By the way, before I forget: I'm leaving at 3:30 AM 
tomorrow to go out of town. I'll be back Monday noonish, in time for 
our meeting then.
<elhugo> But the Colonel doesn't have someone to write to him
<elhugo> Again... we have to see how we fit XP with Open Source. 
Our goal is to be as XPish as possible.
<abe> So given the Dictator, the manager has very little power, the 
manager plays almost a facilitator role, I would think.
<arnaldo> Yes. And, how to fit XP with a distributed, rather than a 
co-located, group.
<arnaldo> ha.
<elhugo> he
<elhugo> Jim what are your thought?
<kalafutj> I'm fine with distributed XP EXCEPT for PP. That seems 
like it would be problematic.
<elhugo> One goes as one goes and then one shall see.
<elhugo> What about the manager here.
<kalafutj> Arnaldo/Manager, Jim/Tracker ?
<ChrisHeistad> All in favor say Aye. Aye!
<kalafutj> aye
<abe> aye
<elhugo> Nay
<kalafutj> Revisit the def of manager?
<elhugo> yes
<kalafutj> I see a facilitator role, as was previously mentioned.
<arnaldo> indeed. Would you feel better if we called the role 
"facilitator"?
<elhugo> Someone who builds tools and keeps them working...
<abe> On PP, Net meeting, plus voice is almost the same as being 
in the same room. I do not see why it would be so problematic. I am 
remote in a project and we get the work done just like we would 
sharing the same office.
<elhugo> PP later
<arnaldo> Sorry, "PP" stands for...
<elhugo> Pair Programming ;)
<arnaldo> oh. My face is red.
<rdram> Mine too.
<abe> Someone who builds tools and keeps them working... one of 
the programmers would do this...
<kalafutj> Because Andrew is NOT an active part of this team, I 
don't think he should have a role. Yet we need one point of contact 
to the course staff, so that would most closely match a "Manager".
<elhugo> Also I envison the manager and someone who organizes 
the meetings, keep tabs on things that we are in schedule, buy us 
pizza when we finally meet.
<arnaldo> That's how I see the manager as well.
<arnaldo> Plus I get paid more.
<arnaldo> :)
<kalafutj> But you buy pizza
<ChrisHeistad> Twice of nothing is still nothing :-)
<arnaldo> And I have pointy hair and make irrelevant comments like 
in "Dilbert".
<ChrisHeistad> OK you're there
<ChrisHeistad> :-)
<kalafutj> From know on, you shall be known as: PHA
<elhugo> I vote for Jim to be the manager because of what he has 
done and because he has shown great interest in SourceForge and 
such.'
<abe> so Arnaldo, as a good manager can you summarize the role 
of the manager, based on the previous postings, for a final decision?
<abe> I withdraw my previous comment
<ChrisHeistad> I would make some sense since jim wants to 
continue on next semester...
<kalafutj> If Jim gets admitted....
<arnaldo> Of course, I'll be here next semester as well.
<elhugo> So arnaldo, do you want to be tracker or some other role?
<kalafutj> I view the SourceForge and linux stuff on my end as just 
another technical task, not the same and the course liason role.
<kalafutj> and=as
<arnaldo> Right now, I'm reviewing the definition of "tracker" and 
"manager" that we've listed above to make some sense of this.
<elhugo> Well I am not qualified to be the course liason.
<arnaldo> Well, I agree with the comment Jim just made.
<elhugo> So Arnaldo is our liasion with the course and Jim is our 
tech.
<elhugo> ?
<ChrisHeistad> Does that translate to Arnaldo=manager 
Jim=tracker ?
<kalafutj> My concern is that a full blown manager/tracker role 
would not leave any time for that person to develop, which we all 
probably want to do. Hence the split between Arnaldo and I.
<elhugo> Tracker is a person who does the metrics by definition. 
Do you want to do this Jim? How about abe and rdam?
<abe> Not really, the tech guy is more like an Archtiect than a 
tracker. A tracker is not a very big role, since XP is not 
beaurocratic (sp?)
<arnaldo> I have an idea: let's throw away the term manager.
<elhugo> I agree with abe.
<arnaldo> the term "manager".
<arnaldo> I think that would clear things up a bit.
<elhugo> OK,. so manager is off on vacation... now what
<elhugo> ?
<arnaldo> The word "manager" has some unnecessary baggage 
implying authority and control that just aren't going to be true in this 
project.
<kalafutj> Tracker may not be big, but his/her artifacts are 
important for the course grade. They'll show progress and 
adhearance to XP, which is what the staff will want to see.
<arnaldo> What if we called it facilitator/course staff communicator.
<abe> manager = power , interest lots of negative connotation. I 
second Arnaldo and Hugo, let's send the manager away on vacation.
<arnaldo> All for firing the manager, say "aye"!
<ChrisHeistad> Aye
<elhugo> Aye
<rdram> Aye!
<kalafutj> Aye
<arnaldo> aye!
<ChrisHeistad> You are the weakest link!
<abe> aye!
<kalafutj> Bye Bye!
<arnaldo> Who's the weakest link?
<elhugo> C ya!
<ChrisHeistad> Manager is the weakest link
<abe> the facilitator/communicator would be responsible for 
reporting the tracker artifacts in a nice format (the documenter?)
<kalafutj> Yes...those two will work together to make sure materials 
are turned in.
<ChrisHeistad> Whats the next role to decide?
<arnaldo> And for getting meeting agendas to people in advance, 
etc.
<arnaldo> Do we need a "tester"?
<elhugo> So Jim will be our Facilitator/Tracker?
<kalafutj> Man we need a table... I was under the impression that A. 
would be Facilitor, and I'd be Tracker....
<elhugo> Or is it Arnaldo? (Not being fastidious just want to get it 
down right)
<abe> that is what I thought!
<arnaldo> Yes, I'm facilitator/communicator; Jim is tracker.
<elhugo> Ok we all agree then. Thanks.
<arnaldo> But we'll work closely together, as I see it.
<kalafutj> I agree.
<ChrisHeistad> All in favor say Aye
<kalafutj> aye
<elhugo> Aye
<rdram> Aye.
<abe> aye
<ChrisHeistad> aye
<arnaldo> agye
<arnaldo> aye
<ChrisHeistad> ok what role next?
<arnaldo> sorry; that was the manager talking.
<arnaldo> :)
<kalafutj> Great. Testing: Hugo does acceptance testing, and we all 
do our regular unit testing?
<kalafutj> Ergo: to separate 'tester' role?
<kalafutj> to=no
<ChrisHeistad> Does that violate xp?
<kalafutj> I think that is straight from what I read this evening.
<arnaldo> I don't think so; I think in some contexts there are 
separate testers, in some there aren't.
<ChrisHeistad> All in favor say Aye
<elhugo> I agree on that but if you read the XP message board 
then maybe someone will be interested in the role. Maybe we can 
leave this one until we have a release plan?
<rdram> Isn't the programmer also a unit tester?
<kalafutj> Yes
<arnaldo> I'm for leaving it until we have a release plan.
<ChrisHeistad> Hugo, would that person write a test plan or 
something?
<kalafutj> Hugo: are you referring to an outside person as another 
tester?
<elhugo> A unit tester is not the same as someone responsible with 
the Acceptance Test AND the black box testing that is not unit 
testing.
<kalafutj> You, as the customer, should be the Acceptance Tester, 
right?
<abe> I agree with Hugo
<abe> The customer, or someone representing the customer...
<elhugo> Acceptance tests our my garantee but in the real world... 
wouldn't it be nice if there was a tester that could help me out?
<abe> Are you looking for a volunteer?
<elhugo> Not strictly QA but something related too... don't have the 
word right now to explain it right :(
<ChrisHeistad> quality champion?
<abe> Been there, done that, would love to do it again...
<kalafutj> Shall we leave this one open for right now?
<elhugo> I like that term quality champion... sounds better than 
Tester.
<arnaldo> Indeed, I agree.
<arnaldo> But, perhaps tester is actually more descriptive.
<ChrisHeistad> Abe wants to be quality champion?
<abe> Yeap.
<ChrisHeistad> All in favor?
<arnaldo> Aye.
<rdram> Aye.
<kalafutj> Aye
<ChrisHeistad> Aye
<elhugo> Aye
<ChrisHeistad> Next role?
<arnaldo> I have a question about that last one.
<arnaldo> Not that I want a revote, just a clarification.
<arnaldo> What will the role of quality champion be at first?
<arnaldo> Will you start as a developer and then switch?
<elhugo> Maybe we could rotate this role?
<arnaldo> Oh no. I'm not suggesting that.
<arnaldo> I was just curious how it would look at first.
<rdram> Wouldn't this role be active all the time?
<arnaldo> That's my question.
<arnaldo> Is the answer 'yes'?
<abe> It is throughout the process: is the project plan viable (reality 
check), are documents /reports complete and consistent, so on an 
so forth
<arnaldo> Excellent. I misunderstood. Now I'm up to speed.
<abe> the role can rotate, an should. Also should happen all the 
time.
<elhugo> Is the only role left Programmer?
<elhugo> I think rotation is a good idea.
<abe> coach?
<rdram> Wouldn't be too slow for each member to take this role?
<kalafutj> So far, is this correct: 
http://xmlwiki.sourceforge.net/people.html 
<arnaldo> No, Jim! The manager is dead! :)
<elhugo> Keep you thinking and actually there is a thread about in 
during this week in the XP mail list.
<kalafutj> So what do we call it now?????
<elhugo> Coach != manager.
<rdram> Dindn't we throw away the Manager and decided for 
Arnaldo as Facilitator/Communicator?
<arnaldo> Facilitator/Communicator
<abe> on tester: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/extremeprogramming/message/35211?threaded=1 
<kalafutj> OK. refresh.
<arnaldo> nice.
<ChrisHeistad> Isn't everyone a programmer?
<arnaldo> Jim, just for fun, will you add:
<arnaldo> Manager - Fired.
<kalafutj> Except for Hugo.
<elhugo> I only wished...
<elhugo> All that beautiful code to write...
<elhugo> hum.
<kalafutj> OK
<kalafutj> Just a few more and we'll have renamed every role in XP!
<elhugo> I really can't until the course is over and actually maybe it 
is better that I stay as coach.
<abe> coach = Hugo, who we can go for help and he can get some 
joy from guiding some of the coding activity...
<arnaldo> Gentlemen, I have to go. There's some loose ends I have 
to tie up before I leave on my trip to Philadelphia tomorrow.
<arnaldo> like, packing...
<elhugo> bon voyage
<arnaldo> Thanks.
<abe> have a safe trip...
<kalafutj> Have a safe trip.
<rdram> Take care.
<arnaldo> Guys, this has been really productive; I'm going to look 
forward to working with you all.
<ChrisHeistad> I sure hope we don't fire the facilitator while on 
vacation :-)
<arnaldo> 'bye!
<ChrisHeistad> bye!
<rdram> Bye!
<elhugo> bye
[20:22]   arnaldo is now Away (Away)