Thread: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input
Status: Planning
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From: Bruce B. <bb...@sy...> - 2001-01-15 00:46:21
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We are thinking very seriously of doing a quick OneWire hub design, which
would have at least two DS2409s on it, for at least two branch outputs.
Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a DS2433 on the aux
branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the active branch of
OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging 2433 you are
reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only device on the aux
output.
Alternatively, if you use both 2409 outputs as switched branches, then you
get twice as many but the tagging is not quite so clean. If the 2433 was on
each output, then it's hard to tell if the 2433 you are reading is the
tagging 2433 of this 2409 or some other 2433 on the branch.
Our intent is that this "hub" would be something you would string along a
OneWire "backbone". For example one hub per floor or section of a building,
with one branch per office or room.
Each hub would also have a rugged switching regulator which could supply
power to its branches. The power could be switched so that it was only on
when the branch was selected. It would be the same or similar to our STEP
boards, at least 8-24VDC input, 1A 5V output. The hub power would go just
to the branches, the backbone would be powered by the sockets board.
Shorting out one branch would only affect that branch (assuming we switch
each branch's regulated 5V), if we didn't then it would still only affect
the branches of that hub.
If memory serves, some branches would want to be powered all the time so
that, for example, temperature alarms could be sampled at once? Has someone
used these devices in this mode?
The hubs could also be cascaded so that a branch could have switched
"leaves", although it seems this level of complexity could drive you nuts
pretty quickly. Point is, the hub and its power circuit would allow this.
This would be a rugged industrial grade device with series resistors on
each branch and diode clamps, etc to guard against long cable runs on each
branch.
The "trunk" oneWire would have RJ12s and screw terminals for easy
connection to any common Dallas-compliant TINI socket board (all the eXX
and all Systronix sockets use the same pinout). The branches would have
pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s for the maximum of flexibility.
Each 2409 would also have an LED to indicate status and power.
An interesting question is how quickly TINI could switch branches and
perform some useful task, so that a switched branch could do something
interesting like door access, if possible.
Any security issues which might affect hardware design? We could include an
iButton socket on the hub board - where should it be? On the aux output
with the tagging device?
Input welcome.
- Bruce
-----------------------------------------
WWW.SYSTRONIX.COM
Fast 8051s, embedded Java and much more
new! 8x1-Wire I/O board for 1-Wire nets
+1-801-534-1017 Salt Lake City, USA
-----------------------------------------
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From: David S. <dav...@da...> - 2001-01-15 12:41:14
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Bruce, > Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a DS2433 > on the aux branch of each DS2409. If the 'tag' file in the DS2433 contains the 1-Wire Net Address of both of the DS2409's then it can be anywhere including on the trunk. > The power could be switched so that it was only on > when the branch was selected. OK, but note the DS2409 powers a branch (keeps it high) even when the branch is off. This prevents a big load of powering- up devices being dumped on the trunk when a branch is turned on. > An interesting question is how quickly TINI could switch branches and > perform some useful task, so that a switched branch could do something > interesting like door access, if possible. We are working on a TINI door access demo using a DS2409: ftp://ftp.dalsemi.com/pub/auto_id/temp/TINIDoorControllerSchematicB.PDF I believe the response time is about 50ms per door from TINI. All of the code and documentation will be posted soon. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: xml...@li... > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of Bruce > Boyes > Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2001 6:46 PM > To: xml...@li... > Subject: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > We are thinking very seriously of doing a quick OneWire hub design, which > would have at least two DS2409s on it, for at least two branch outputs. > > Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a DS2433 > on the aux > branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the active branch of > OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging 2433 you are > reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only device > on the aux > output. > > Alternatively, if you use both 2409 outputs as switched branches, then you > get twice as many but the tagging is not quite so clean. If the > 2433 was on > each output, then it's hard to tell if the 2433 you are reading is the > tagging 2433 of this 2409 or some other 2433 on the branch. > > Our intent is that this "hub" would be something you would string along a > OneWire "backbone". For example one hub per floor or section of a > building, > with one branch per office or room. > > Each hub would also have a rugged switching regulator which could supply > power to its branches. The power could be switched so that it was only on > when the branch was selected. It would be the same or similar to our STEP > boards, at least 8-24VDC input, 1A 5V output. The hub power would go just > to the branches, the backbone would be powered by the sockets board. > Shorting out one branch would only affect that branch (assuming we switch > each branch's regulated 5V), if we didn't then it would still only affect > the branches of that hub. > > If memory serves, some branches would want to be powered all the time so > that, for example, temperature alarms could be sampled at once? > Has someone > used these devices in this mode? > > The hubs could also be cascaded so that a branch could have switched > "leaves", although it seems this level of complexity could drive you nuts > pretty quickly. Point is, the hub and its power circuit would allow this. > > This would be a rugged industrial grade device with series resistors on > each branch and diode clamps, etc to guard against long cable runs on each > branch. > > The "trunk" oneWire would have RJ12s and screw terminals for easy > connection to any common Dallas-compliant TINI socket board (all the eXX > and all Systronix sockets use the same pinout). The branches would have > pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s for the maximum of > flexibility. > > Each 2409 would also have an LED to indicate status and power. > > An interesting question is how quickly TINI could switch branches and > perform some useful task, so that a switched branch could do something > interesting like door access, if possible. > > Any security issues which might affect hardware design? We could > include an > iButton socket on the hub board - where should it be? On the aux output > with the tagging device? > > Input welcome. > > - Bruce > ----------------------------------------- > WWW.SYSTRONIX.COM > Fast 8051s, embedded Java and much more > new! 8x1-Wire I/O board for 1-Wire nets > +1-801-534-1017 Salt Lake City, USA > ----------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > Xml...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > |
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From: Jac K. <j.k...@th...> - 2001-01-17 23:10:53
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On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote: > Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a DS2433 on the aux > branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the active branch of > OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging 2433 you are > reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only device on the aux > output. What about adding a DS2433 on the main bus? That way there's no need to address the DS2409 to get to the tagging information. Being able to read the configuration information for the first layer of the 1-wire net without switching DS2409 to AUX branch seems easier. > Alternatively, if you use both 2409 outputs as switched branches, then you > get twice as many but the tagging is not quite so clean. If the 2433 was on > each output, then it's hard to tell if the 2433 you are reading is the > tagging 2433 of this 2409 or some other 2433 on the branch. If the tagging contains the 1-wire address of the 2409 that shouldn't be a problem. And having both main and aux available would be very nice. That way one of the 2409 could be used as a door controller. If aux isn't available one would have to use a second 2409 main also for this purpose. > The branches would have pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s > for the maximum of flexibility. Please add RJ12s for easy connection of blue dots, 8x1wire etc. Regards, Jac -- Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com |
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From: Byron K. A. <b.k...@ie...> - 2001-01-17 23:58:10
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The problem is that if you have multiple DS2433's, especially if they are associated with multiple DS2409 branches, you can't tell which DS2433 is associated with which branch. Requiring that the DS2409 be switched insures that you know this. BTW, I am all for having a DS2433 or at least space for one, on the aux branch. Byron K. Appelt Universal Vinculum Incorporated http://www.vinculum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: xml...@li... > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of Jac > Kersing > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 5:16 PM > To: Bruce Boyes > Cc: xml...@li... > Subject: Re: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote: > > > Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a > DS2433 on the aux > > branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the > active branch of > > OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging > 2433 you are > > reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only > device on the aux > > output. > > What about adding a DS2433 on the main bus? That way there's no need to > address the DS2409 to get to the tagging information. Being able to read > the configuration information for the first layer of the 1-wire net > without switching DS2409 to AUX branch seems easier. > > > Alternatively, if you use both 2409 outputs as switched > branches, then you > > get twice as many but the tagging is not quite so clean. If the > 2433 was on > > each output, then it's hard to tell if the 2433 you are reading is the > > tagging 2433 of this 2409 or some other 2433 on the branch. > > If the tagging contains the 1-wire address of the 2409 that shouldn't be a > problem. And having both main and aux available would be very nice. That > way one of the 2409 could be used as a door controller. If aux isn't > available one would have to use a second 2409 main also for this purpose. > > > The branches would have pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s > > for the maximum of flexibility. > > Please add RJ12s for easy connection of blue dots, 8x1wire etc. > > Regards, > > Jac > > -- > Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development > j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > Xml...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > |
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From: David S. <dav...@da...> - 2001-01-18 13:24:52
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> The problem is that if you have multiple DS2433's, especially if they are > associated with multiple DS2409 branches, you can't tell which DS2433 is > associated with which branch. If the tag on the DS2433 contains the 1-Wire Address's of the DS2409's then it can be anywhere. I would prefer to have it not down a branch so that you could know what a branch is before opening it. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: xml...@li... > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of Byron > K. Appelt > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:06 PM > To: 1-wire TAG list > Subject: RE: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > The problem is that if you have multiple DS2433's, especially if they are > associated with multiple DS2409 branches, you can't tell which DS2433 is > associated with which branch. Requiring that the DS2409 be > switched insures > that you know this. BTW, I am all for having a DS2433 or at least > space for > one, on the aux branch. > > Byron K. Appelt > Universal Vinculum Incorporated > http://www.vinculum.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xml...@li... > > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of Jac > > Kersing > > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 5:16 PM > > To: Bruce Boyes > > Cc: xml...@li... > > Subject: Re: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > > > > On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote: > > > > > Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a > > DS2433 on the aux > > > branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the > > active branch of > > > OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging > > 2433 you are > > > reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only > > device on the aux > > > output. > > > > What about adding a DS2433 on the main bus? That way there's no need to > > address the DS2409 to get to the tagging information. Being able to read > > the configuration information for the first layer of the 1-wire net > > without switching DS2409 to AUX branch seems easier. > > > > > Alternatively, if you use both 2409 outputs as switched > > branches, then you > > > get twice as many but the tagging is not quite so clean. If the > > 2433 was on > > > each output, then it's hard to tell if the 2433 you are reading is the > > > tagging 2433 of this 2409 or some other 2433 on the branch. > > > > If the tagging contains the 1-wire address of the 2409 that > shouldn't be a > > problem. And having both main and aux available would be very nice. That > > way one of the 2409 could be used as a door controller. If aux isn't > > available one would have to use a second 2409 main also for > this purpose. > > > > > The branches would have pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s > > > for the maximum of flexibility. > > > > Please add RJ12s for easy connection of blue dots, 8x1wire etc. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jac > > > > -- > > Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development > > j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > > Xml...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > Xml...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > |
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From: Byron K. A. <b.k...@ie...> - 2001-01-18 20:03:47
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> If the tag on the DS2433 contains the 1-Wire Address's > of the DS2409's then it can be anywhere. I would prefer > to have it not down a branch so that you could > know what a branch is before opening it. A valid approach, probably the right one. My only thought is that if you have a network containing several memory devices, not all containing tagging information, you will have to check each of them and determine whether or not they contain a tag, and then process that tag. If, however, it was a rule that braches are always tagged on their aux branch, you would already know where to find what tagging information. On the other hand, if you have prior knowledge of the network, it would make sense to put all of the information for all of the branches in a single tag on the main branch. Byron > -----Original Message----- > From: xml...@li... > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of David > Smiczek > Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2001 7:25 AM > To: Byron K. Appelt; 1-wire TAG list > Subject: RE: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > > The problem is that if you have multiple DS2433's, especially > if they are > > associated with multiple DS2409 branches, you can't tell which DS2433 is > > associated with which branch. > > If the tag on the DS2433 contains the 1-Wire Address's > of the DS2409's then it can be anywhere. I would prefer > to have it not down a branch so that you could > know what a branch is before opening it. > > Dave > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: xml...@li... > > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of Byron > > K. Appelt > > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 6:06 PM > > To: 1-wire TAG list > > Subject: RE: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > > > > The problem is that if you have multiple DS2433's, especially > if they are > > associated with multiple DS2409 branches, you can't tell which DS2433 is > > associated with which branch. Requiring that the DS2409 be > > switched insures > > that you know this. BTW, I am all for having a DS2433 or at least > > space for > > one, on the aux branch. > > > > Byron K. Appelt > > Universal Vinculum Incorporated > > http://www.vinculum.com > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: xml...@li... > > > [mailto:xml...@li...]On Behalf Of Jac > > > Kersing > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 5:16 PM > > > To: Bruce Boyes > > > Cc: xml...@li... > > > Subject: Re: [Xml1-wire-devel] New hub design, request for input > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote: > > > > > > > Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a > > > DS2433 on the aux > > > > branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the > > > active branch of > > > > OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging > > > 2433 you are > > > > reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only > > > device on the aux > > > > output. > > > > > > What about adding a DS2433 on the main bus? That way there's > no need to > > > address the DS2409 to get to the tagging information. Being > able to read > > > the configuration information for the first layer of the 1-wire net > > > without switching DS2409 to AUX branch seems easier. > > > > > > > Alternatively, if you use both 2409 outputs as switched > > > branches, then you > > > > get twice as many but the tagging is not quite so clean. If the > > > 2433 was on > > > > each output, then it's hard to tell if the 2433 you are > reading is the > > > > tagging 2433 of this 2409 or some other 2433 on the branch. > > > > > > If the tagging contains the 1-wire address of the 2409 that > > shouldn't be a > > > problem. And having both main and aux available would be very > nice. That > > > way one of the 2409 could be used as a door controller. If aux isn't > > > available one would have to use a second 2409 main also for > > this purpose. > > > > > > > The branches would have pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s > > > > for the maximum of flexibility. > > > > > > Please add RJ12s for easy connection of blue dots, 8x1wire etc. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jac > > > > > > -- > > > Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development > > > j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > > > Xml...@li... > > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > > Xml...@li... > > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Xml1-wire-devel mailing list > Xml...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xml1-wire-devel > |
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From: Jac K. <j.k...@th...> - 2001-01-19 00:10:24
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On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Byron K. Appelt wrote: > A valid approach, probably the right one. My only thought is that if you > have a network containing several memory devices, not all containing tagging > information, you will have to check each of them and determine whether or > not they contain a tag, and then process that tag. You might have to do this anyway. Someone might choose to add a 8x1-wire (or other device) on the main bus. And don't forget someone might want to add a memory device to the AUX branch as well. > On the other hand, if you have prior knowledge of the network, it > would make sense to put all of the information for all of the branches > in a single tag on the main branch. For all of the branches of that HUB or for all branches on all HUBs? Regards, Jac -- Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com |
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From: Bruce B. <bb...@sy...> - 2001-01-18 19:45:48
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At 00:15 1/18/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>On Sun, 14 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote:
>
>> Naturally we'd want to include tagging ability, perhaps a DS2433 on the aux
>> branch of each DS2409. Then the main branch output is the active branch of
>> OneWire devices. Then you can tell for sure that the tagging 2433 you are
>> reading is definitely the correct one since it's the only device on the aux
>> output.
>
>What about adding a DS2433 on the main bus? That way there's no need to
>address the DS2409 to get to the tagging information. Being able to read
>the configuration information for the first layer of the 1-wire net
>without switching DS2409 to AUX branch seems easier.
Yep, we've decided to do this and use both branches of the 2409 as switched
branches, for four such branches per hub (using 2 2409s).
>If the tagging contains the 1-wire address of the 2409 that shouldn't be a
>problem. And having both main and aux available would be very nice. That
>way one of the 2409 could be used as a door controller. If aux isn't
>available one would have to use a second 2409 main also for this purpose.
>
>> The branches would have pluggable screw terminals, maybe also RJ12s
>> for the maximum of flexibility.
>
>Please add RJ12s for easy connection of blue dots, 8x1wire etc.
Yep, decided that too. That way you have easy bench hookup as well as
rugged field hookup, in any combination. RJs and modular cable are fine for
short runs (<< 100 feet) with longer runs needing Cat5 and screws.
One thing we have been tipped off by Dallas about is that if you short an
active branch on the 2409 it will hang the network and the 2409 can't
recover except by power cycling. This is a bug in the 2409 design which
isn't likely to change soon.
So we are pondering a watchdog which would power cycle the 2409. When the
2409 is power cycled it disabled both branches.
All the commercial watchdogs have a 1 second max timeout. Do you think this
is practical with TINI? I.e. there would have to be some trunk OW activity
every second to keep the watchdog from barking. This could be jumpered to
disable it, or maybe remotely controlled via a DS2406 on the hub trunk,
defaulting to no watchdog.
The hub will have a 5V 1A switcher so it can provide an average of 250 mA
per branch of regulated 5V per hub. Input will be 12-24 VDC which should
satisfy all the industrial folks and allow powering relays direct from a
12V or 24VDC raw branch supply (such as n electric door strike).
Bruce
-----------------------------------------
WWW.SYSTRONIX.COM
Fast 8051s, embedded Java and much more
new! 8x1-Wire I/O board for 1-Wire nets
+1-801-534-1017 Salt Lake City, USA
-----------------------------------------
|
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From: Jac K. <j.k...@th...> - 2001-01-18 23:35:06
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On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote: > One thing we have been tipped off by Dallas about is that if you short an > active branch on the 2409 it will hang the network and the 2409 can't > recover except by power cycling. This is a bug in the 2409 design which > isn't likely to change soon. That's the end of my access control design. One can't rely on users to slot their iButtons into the reader (the one with led) without causing a short every now and then. Back to the drawing board :-( > So we are pondering a watchdog which would power cycle the 2409. When the > 2409 is power cycled it disabled both branches. What about a watchdog that resets the 2409 whenever the active branch is short? If the one-wire signal level stays below a threshold for over 1 second just reset the part. This way there would be no need for almost continues one-wire activity. Regards, Jac -- Jac Kersing Technical Consultant The-Box Development j.k...@th... http://www.the-box.com |
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From: Bruce B. <bb...@sy...> - 2001-01-19 00:39:02
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At 00:40 1/19/2001 +0100, Jac Kersing wrote:
>On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Bruce Boyes wrote:
>
>> One thing we have been tipped off by Dallas about is that if you short an
>> active branch on the 2409 it will hang the network and the 2409 can't
>> recover except by power cycling. This is a bug in the 2409 design which
>> isn't likely to change soon.
>
>That's the end of my access control design. One can't rely on users to
>slot their iButtons into the reader (the one with led) without causing a
>short every now and then. Back to the drawing board :-(
Wait! I didn't mean to paint so dark a picture. The other end of the
equation is that the DS2409 will reset itself turning off both branches
*after* the short ends. So in the case of an accidental reader short you're
OK. In the case of vandalism or physical damage to one branch (fire melts
one end into a lump or someone crushes a cable) which causes an eternal
short, you're stuck unless you can power cycle the 2409 and thereby disable
that branch.
The same short on the trunk due to gross events such as a fire, etc will of
course bring down the net, but that would also cause any other network to
fail too.
>
>> So we are pondering a watchdog which would power cycle the 2409. When the
>> 2409 is power cycled it disabled both branches.
>
>What about a watchdog that resets the 2409 whenever the active branch is
>short? If the one-wire signal level stays below a threshold for over 1
>second just reset the part. This way there would be no need for almost
>continues one-wire activity.
Yes! Dave at Dallas suggested the same thing.
Bruce
-----------------------------------------
WWW.SYSTRONIX.COM
Fast 8051s, embedded Java and much more
new! 8x1-Wire I/O board for 1-Wire nets
+1-801-534-1017 Salt Lake City, USA
-----------------------------------------
|
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