wxperl-users — For wxPerl users

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Bradley K. E. <Bra...@Do...>]

Mike Schroeder wrote:
> Eric Wilhelm wrote:
>> BTW, the TAPx project would love to have a wxPerl gui test harness 
>> example.  There's something that could be used by many perl 
>> programmers, even programmers of other languages, and has a small, but 
>> non-trivial issue of IPC with running children in a fork.  IMO, it 
>> would also be a great place to apply a Wx::TreeListCtrl widget.
>>   
> Oh -- we've had another contractor (Brad Embree) working the past few 
> months on a test harness for wxPerl.  At this point it assumes you will 
> be using the Wx::Data controls (see other email) which are 
> "test-aware".  You can "record" a test, which gets saved (currently 
> using YAML I think??).  You can then "replay" a test and the test 
> harness will compare actual vs expected.  I'll see if Brad can write up 
> something more meaningful about this.
> 
> Mike.

I am actually in the process of finishing the test harness up, and 
integrating it back into our main trunk for some final testing.

The basic idea is that we have our own Event class, that exports a 
register_event function. We register all events using this function, 
instead of using the Wx event "macros". For example:

EVT_BUTTON( $self, $self->{create_account_button}, \&OnCreateAccount );

becomes:

register_event( $self, 'EVT_BUTTON', 'create_account_button', 
\&OnCreateAccount );


The register_event function then "wraps" the event handler inside 
another sub that records the detail of the event (right now just to a 
text file) before calling the handler.

We can turn "recording" on and off dynamically as the app runs. We can 
select a text file for "playback", and it will run through all the 
entries in the text file replaying the recorded actions. What I am 
finishing up now is a comparison of the data that is returned from our 
API during playback to what was received during the test run (it is this 
API data that is stored as YAML).

If anyone is interested I can put together a more thorough write up, and 
perhaps provide a simple example app demonstrating recording/playback.

Brad

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Foo JH <jhf...@ex...>]

> Agreed.  Actually, at this point, just about any solution looks better to me than POE.  After walking the POE road, I am backing out now and re-working the problem with a combination of things.  I think POE is pretty neat, but to turn my code on its head and still not get true concurrency is really just not turning out to be worth it.  If I want to mangle my architecure, I better get more for it.
>   
Is there really an alternative to POE for some real threading in wxPerl? 
Perl isn't famous for it's threading libraries, but a good GUI should 
freeze when it's busy doing something else...

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Foo JH <jhf...@ex...>]

> Not a killer, but nevertheless...
> http://johan.vromans.org/software/sw_palmkeyring.html
>   
Pardon my noobness, but how do you get Perl to run on Palm?!?

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Foo JH <jhf...@ex...>]

Daniell Freed wrote:
> One more thought.
>
> How about an easy way to package wxPerl apps so they are be run on 
> systems that don't have Perl or the wx libraries on it.  That would be 
> awesome as well. 
I think that has been done with PerlApp and PAR. PerlApp is commercial, 
but it's not exactly a lot of dollars involved.

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Foo JH <jhf...@ex...>]

Firstly, I'd like to applaud Peters for his proactive stance towards the 
problem statement.

I think there's a (relatively) small but helpful community in this 
mailing list, who have once faced the pain of learning the wxPerl 
framework, but have since learnt enough on their own to be less bothered 
by them.

I however am one who sort of got stuck with the pain, and have since 
resorted to C# to get around the issues. It's a sad departure, and one 
I'd like to return to again. Contrary to popular belief, programming 
stuff in Perl is REALLY fast and efficient (but the memory footprint can 
be improved...).

Like any other community, wxPerl needs to be friendly to 'new blood'. 
And for these people, we need something simple for them to get started 
on. What we have now are:
1. A couple of aged tutorials from perl.com and sourceforge.net
2. A few sets of integrated demos showing how the GUI components work, 
with source codes
3. An aged documentation on the classes

IMHO, these stuff are good, but need some form of updating to the more 
recent library. Looking at how 'others have done it', a constant (if 
even a trickle) stream of tips and tricks will be very encouraging, 
especially for people who need to know if wxPerl will be worth their 
time and effort.

Let's face it. Perl is really starting to look like Cobol in the sense 
of mindshare of the developer community. Slashdot ppl have been 
questioning the relavance of Perl in today's OS environments. And it's 
not because Perl sucks, but because they don't see anything new coming 
from this community. It's a human mentality, and it is a self-fulfilling 
prophecy.

To sum it up, if we can get a few good men to put up a fresh new look 
for wxPerl, I'm all for it. Just let me know where I can butt in.




Huub Peters wrote:
> Hello list,
>
> I know many others have proposed it in the past and (maybe not so) many
> initiatives have been actually executed but we really need a central
> community kind of place.
>
> The german wiki (http://www.wxperl.de) is a mess (spammed all the time
> and even a defacing at this moment).
> The wiki at http://wxperl.pvoice.org/kwiki/ is a nice effort but only
> thanks to some users (or even only one? jralls?) it is staying free of
> spam but there are no new articles posted at all. Why? Don't know.
> It's probably not  known and personaly I just don't like the Kwiki-software
> but that's a matter of taste off course.
> (On a side note: Jouke (whose place this wiki is hosted on) has anounced
> on his weblog on 24-09-2006 that he will be offline for an undetermined
> ammount of time due to personal issues. Otherwise I would have taken this
> up with him directly to begin with.)
>
> There are other spots with excelent stuff (like gigi.co.uk) but I only heard
> about that on this list and it is decentralized this way.
>
> I can go on with being negative and summing up what I think is "wrong"
> and compare to "the great wxPython community" but that won't solve a thing
> so here's what I came up with:
>
> * I took the liberty of registering wxperl.info.
>   A good domain name improves "findability"
> * I'm in the lucky position of having hosting facilities and a lot of
>    fast bandwidth to go with it that I can use. (the company where I work
>    has no problems with me using it)
> * I started writing this mail :-)
>
> So what's next...?
> Next I need ideas and help.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
> * We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.
>    Something like "Mediawiki" (the heart of Wikipedia) but offcourse I
>    can't live with a perl community on a php-driven site so after some
>    searching I found Twiki: http://www.twiki.org which looks robust enough
>    to me.
> * We need tutorials
> * We need Howto's.
> * We need tips and tricks.
> * Maybe write up the problems and solutions from the mailing list.
> * Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash with
>   the mailing list)
> * Show of your work.
>
> Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and experts can
> teach and learn about wxPerl.
> I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow to be as 
> big as
> wxPerl deserves it to be.
>
> E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
> maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.
>
> Huub Peters
>
>
>
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users
>   

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Mark D. <mar...@zn...>]

Hi Donovan,

I guess it goes back to Huub's original mail in that a common repository
for all things wxPerl would be quite nice. I have no real opinion about
what the back end to this should be nor where it might be hosted other
than that as it all ultimately depends on Mattias' work, you'd need a
good reason not to host it at wxperl.sourceforge.net. I'm not saying
there aren't good reasons - its just a straightforward non-loaded statement.

I see no reason why a wxPerlIDE couldn't live alongside work on specific
applications. After all, if you believe that application 'A' is the way
to go, then you're much more likely to contribute to application 'A'
rather than 'B'. I didn't mean to disparage 'killer app' as an idea. Its
just not 'application A' for me.

As for creating square wheels you may be right. I personally have
finally got to the stage where I have a bunch of base frame and dialog
classes that do stuff just the way I like and I don't actually use any
dialog designer at all. (I'm still struggling with the POE question
though so will be off to look at Eric's code shortly). But it took me a
long time to get there. I figured wxPerlIDE would provide an easier
entry point for new users from both a practical usage and example code
point of view.

The Web3 stuff, of course, is born out of issues and questions that many
people have to solve every working day. Perl / CPAN offers superior
solutions to most of this already but is often not the solution of
choice. I really do believe that wxPerl + CPAN + Perl + some snappy new
framework name is a solution that could be working 'in the wild' in very
short order.

Bizarely, I think that the most important part of this is the snappy new
framework name - but then maybe I've just spent too much time in the
company of people who want their solutions to be 'SOA re-architected in
.NET' and are responsible for the hideous re-animation of that 1980's
piece of corporate babble-speak, the 'paradigm shift'.

But I find myself digressing. Lets have 'Killer App' and 'wxPerlIDE' at
a common home.


Mark

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Donovan A. <al...@Zo...>]

I guess I don't see the killer app as seperate from anything you just =
retorted against the idea.  Lets face it, getting to a working =
applications breeds supporting technology.  IE., see Mozilla.
=20
A wxPerlIDE is, while not my favorite idea, is infact a potential killer =
app, presuming it is getting the job done well.  As Daniell Freed just =
pointed out...nobody else has, so it could be just the thing.  I am =
inclined to think that it is too small in audience, but a need obviously =
exists and is currently a void filled with corpses (also a warning as =
much as encouragement).
=20
Presuming for a moment that wxPerlIDE is the thing...
=20
Why can't this be the goal while we hit web 3.0 nails and extend wxperl =
to be a kinder, gentler platform/framework?
=20
Often, building wheels without planning on using them for a real vehicle =
ends up resulting in square wheels.
=20
Ok, I will stop with the "killer app" cheerleading now. :-)

________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of Mark =
Dootson
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 4:19 PM
To: Huub Peters
Cc: wxp...@li...
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...



Huub,

If you get this underway then certainly, I would be happy to contribute.

Like others, I'm not sure it will have the effect you hope for - but
that's just opinion at this point.

"Killer App" - I'm not so sure on this either. I tend to think 'Killer
Platform / Framework' and it seems to me that Eric's 'Web 3.0' just
about hits the nail on the head.

I would say we need a wxPerl IDE written in wxPerl that in itself should
demonstrate:

One way of separating out the GUI code from the logic code.
One approach to the POE problem.
A bunch of wizards for common interface elements.

This is non-trivial as, Perl being Perl, we'd probably spend an
inordinate amount of time arguing about whether building an IDE that by
its nature would be prescriptive about how the GUI code was structured
was a good idea at all, let alone ever agreeing on what that particular
structure should be. I call it an IDE rather than a 'Dialog Designer' as
I would regard it as necessary for an app of this type to impose a
structure on the GUI code and I'd regard that as a positive thing.

We need a bunch of 'data aware' controls and a common data interface
that fits with Erics 'Web 3.0' analogy - Prior list postings would
suggest that much work towards this has been done in some form or
another. Whether this would end up as a DBI::Web3 or a Web3::Recordset
type of thing I'm not sure at present. But Wx::DataGrid and Wx::DataCtrl
are a must.

We need a report designer GUI that makes it easier to produce formatted
printed output. Yep - I know CPAN's awash with possible solutions for
coding this - my point would be that we need a high level interface to
one of these solutions.

With those things in place, there's a chance of getting much wider usage
for wxPerl.

>From that point, throw PostgreSQL and its support for perl into the mix
together with Apache/Modperl and you have the complete ' .PerlWEB3'
cross platform framework.

It seems to me that the wxPerl C documentation is perfectly good as a
functional reference.

The real issue is the inordinate amount of time it takes someone to get
to their first working screen with maybe a functional menu or two. This
produces a perception that using wxPerl is difficult and time consuming
- which is the opposite of what any perl effort should be. I don't think
the answer is a bunch of documentation on how to achieve it. Working
code in an IDE/Designer would do the job perfectly.

My .NET colleagues may spend twice as long as I do getting their logic
to work. but they aren't spending their time trying to figure out the
correct way to exit a program or destroy a frame. This gives them the
perception that their environment is somehow more productive.

So count me in to contribute to any Wiki / Kwiki.

I'd be very interested in collaborating on any IDE/Designer or 'Web 3.0'
effort.

Regards

Mark














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Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Mike S. <Mik...@Do...>]

Eric Wilhelm wrote:
> BTW, the TAPx project would love to have a wxPerl gui test harness 
> example.  There's something that could be used by many perl 
> programmers, even programmers of other languages, and has a small, but 
> non-trivial issue of IPC with running children in a fork.  IMO, it 
> would also be a great place to apply a Wx::TreeListCtrl widget.
>   
Oh -- we've had another contractor (Brad Embree) working the past few 
months on a test harness for wxPerl.  At this point it assumes you will 
be using the Wx::Data controls (see other email) which are 
"test-aware".  You can "record" a test, which gets saved (currently 
using YAML I think??).  You can then "replay" a test and the test 
harness will compare actual vs expected.  I'll see if Brad can write up 
something more meaningful about this.

Mike.

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Mike S. <Mik...@Do...>]

Mark Dootson wrote:
> We need a bunch of 'data aware' controls and a common data interface
> that fits with Erics 'Web 3.0' analogy - Prior list postings would
> suggest that much work towards this has been done in some form or
> another. Whether this would end up as a DBI::Web3 or a Web3::Recordset
> type of thing I'm not sure at present. But Wx::DataGrid and Wx::DataCtrl
> are a must.
>   
We (DonorWare) are really close to releasing a whole Wx::Data family of 
code that runs a POE-based HTTP server to your server-side APIs, a 
client side POE::Loop::Wx DataManager, and a basic suite of Wx::Data / 
POE / Async  widgets.  Eriam Schaffter has been on contract for us for 
the past year working on this in 4 phases -- phase 1 was to replicate 
what were already doing, phase 2 was to allow a client to access data on 
the server via a REST-like data path, phase 3 was to allow "push" 
subscriptions to a datapath, as well as "chunking" of large result sets 
to allow a virtual list control to receive very large result sets.  
Phase 4 is next, which is to allow the client to cache data objects for 
specified data paths in "offline" mode to allow the client to continue 
to run (initially just crippled/partially) even when not connected to 
the network (think laptop based travellers).  We also see this approach 
allowing for distributed cache servers (place a cache server in a 
client's offices, and their users will share/access the same local cache 
server, which in turn will be subscribed and receive push updates from 
your central data center).

We have tried to make this all modular and pluggable.  So if you don't 
want your Wx::Data controls to use HTTP API calls, you could plug in a 
Wx::Data::Client::DBI module, etc etc etc.

Anyhow, this has take way longer than we expected to get write, but we 
think it will be worthwhile.  We will be releasing this on CPAN "real 
soon now".

All that to say, I think this *might* fill in some of the Web 3.0 stuff 
-- we deploy clients to Win32, Linux, and OS X.  I think wxPerl's 
cross-platform nature and the ability to distribute/self-update small 
PAR-based code files of perl for updates/changes is the way to give true 
Rich Internet Applications - but I am biased.  Anyhow... we are getting 
close to sharing all this.  Plus, our application is/will be an example 
of a large infrastructure being deployed using wxPerl (hundreds of 
frames, dynamically being built on the fly using server-side meta-data, 
against a server side business logic code base of close to a million 
lines of code).

Sorry this has taken so long to release... :)

Mike.

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Donovan A. <al...@Zo...>]

Thanks for sharing Johan.  I am grooving on getting to see what others =
are building with WxPerl without having to hunt them down.
=20
After a little more thought and seeing dotReader and PalmRing, maybe a =
killer app is a somewhat forced concept to materialize out of thin air, =
but rather a more organic thing that could arise out of small utilities =
that are built and supported by the community with the goal of education =
of WxPerl as well as providing consolidated exposure to the tools =
themselves by being part of a larger, better known collection of free =
utilities.
=20
The palmring is a perfect example, but on its own, isn't enough for the =
momentum.  Perhaps a WxPerl + open source community version of something =
like: http://www.analogx.com/contents/download.htm =
<http://www.analogx.com/contents/download.htm>=20
=20
I am not just talking a portal here, but tools that are built (or =
adopted), worked on, and supported by the WxPerl community.  Each tool =
can provide source material for "how to" examples, whatever the format =
is.  Even if an individual is the primary, the app can live on without =
them.  This would of course mean the community site would have to be a =
store house, download site as well.  Hmmm.
=20
Mumbles something about divided houses and all that...
=20
The more I think about it, I believe more and more that useful =
applications are the best way to educate both beginners and above, as =
long as educational material accompanies it and ideally the code is =
written with that purpose in mind.
=20
The group developement of these tools would hopefully result in more =
higher level APIs, especially ones with an eye on generic usefulness =
across applications.
=20
Here is an app that is Win32::GUI atm, but should be pretty easy for me =
to convert over into some sort of mini useful WxPerl image app (IPTC =
editor...) that could grow into a gallery upload tool or something...  =
It does use GFLAx (http://perso.orange.fr/pierre.g/xnview/engfl.html =
<http://perso.orange.fr/pierre.g/xnview/engfl.html> ), which is fine for =
free apps and much faster than the likes of ImageMagick (but obviously =
suffers from lack of platform portability).  It also uses some neat =
things like HTTP::Async, which provides yet another example of solving =
what is normally a blocking problem.
=20
http://webshare.zoo.org//data/allend/madup_v09_ss001.jpg =
<http://webshare.zoo.org//data/allend/madup_v09_ss001.jpg>=20
http://webshare.zoo.org//data/allend/madup_v09_ss002.jpg =
<http://webshare.zoo.org//data/allend/madup_v09_ss002.jpg>=20
http://webshare.zoo.org//data/allend/madup_v09_ss003.jpg =
<http://webshare.zoo.org//data/allend/madup_v09_ss003.jpg>=20

Unfortunately, my WxPerl app of note is something I cannot share =
out...nor is it that great of a WxPerl showcase since it is mostly an =
ActiveX container (the control GUI where all the neat stuff  is was =
built as an Embperl web app).

Somewhere I have a WxPerl app that allows you to control a phidgets =
LED64 as well...need to go find that.


________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of Johan =
Vromans
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 3:03 PM
To: wxp...@li...
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...



"Donovan Allen" <al...@Zo...> writes:

> 1> Something in the realm of a killer app [...] This app would
>    perhaps be useful outside of the community itself. [...]
>    Therefore, this app should also not be for Perl itself

Not a killer, but nevertheless...
http://johan.vromans.org/software/sw_palmkeyring.html

Under construction:
http://www.eekboek.nl/scrshots/index.html

Also: http://johan.vromans.org/articles/wxglade.pdf

HTH

-- Johan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
Johan Vromans                                           =
jvr...@sq...
Squirrel Consultancy                                  Exloo, the =
Netherlands
http://www.squirrel.nl                              =
http://johan.vromans.org
PGP Key 1024D/1298C2B4                  =
http://johan.vromans.org/pgpkey.html
----------------------- "Arms are made for hugging" =
------------------------


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Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Daniell F. <win...@gm...>]

One more thought.

How about an easy way to package wxPerl apps so they are be run on  
systems that don't have Perl or the wx libraries on it.  That would  
be awesome as well.

I'm not sure how I could help with either of these projects (due to  
time constraints), but I'd be willing to try.

Thanks,
Dan Freed

On Feb 12, 2007, at 6:19 PM, Mark Dootson wrote:

> Huub,
>
> If you get this underway then certainly, I would be happy to  
> contribute.
>
> Like others, I'm not sure it will have the effect you hope for - but
> that's just opinion at this point.
>
> "Killer App" - I'm not so sure on this either. I tend to think 'Killer
> Platform / Framework' and it seems to me that Eric's 'Web 3.0' just
> about hits the nail on the head.
>
> I would say we need a wxPerl IDE written in wxPerl that in itself  
> should
> demonstrate:
>
> One way of separating out the GUI code from the logic code.
> One approach to the POE problem.
> A bunch of wizards for common interface elements.
>
> This is non-trivial as, Perl being Perl, we'd probably spend an
> inordinate amount of time arguing about whether building an IDE  
> that by
> its nature would be prescriptive about how the GUI code was structured
> was a good idea at all, let alone ever agreeing on what that  
> particular
> structure should be. I call it an IDE rather than a 'Dialog  
> Designer' as
> I would regard it as necessary for an app of this type to impose a
> structure on the GUI code and I'd regard that as a positive thing.
>
> We need a bunch of 'data aware' controls and a common data interface
> that fits with Erics 'Web 3.0' analogy - Prior list postings would
> suggest that much work towards this has been done in some form or
> another. Whether this would end up as a DBI::Web3 or a Web3::Recordset
> type of thing I'm not sure at present. But Wx::DataGrid and  
> Wx::DataCtrl
> are a must.
>
> We need a report designer GUI that makes it easier to produce  
> formatted
> printed output. Yep - I know CPAN's awash with possible solutions for
> coding this - my point would be that we need a high level interface to
> one of these solutions.
>
> With those things in place, there's a chance of getting much wider  
> usage
> for wxPerl.
>
>> From that point, throw PostgreSQL and its support for perl into  
>> the mix
> together with Apache/Modperl and you have the complete ' .PerlWEB3'
> cross platform framework.
>
> It seems to me that the wxPerl C documentation is perfectly good as a
> functional reference.
>
> The real issue is the inordinate amount of time it takes someone to  
> get
> to their first working screen with maybe a functional menu or two.  
> This
> produces a perception that using wxPerl is difficult and time  
> consuming
> - which is the opposite of what any perl effort should be. I don't  
> think
> the answer is a bunch of documentation on how to achieve it. Working
> code in an IDE/Designer would do the job perfectly.
>
> My .NET colleagues may spend twice as long as I do getting their logic
> to work. but they aren't spending their time trying to figure out the
> correct way to exit a program or destroy a frame. This gives them the
> perception that their environment is somehow more productive.
>
> So count me in to contribute to any Wiki / Kwiki.
>
> I'd be very interested in collaborating on any IDE/Designer or 'Web  
> 3.0'
> effort.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,  
> security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your  
> job easier.
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache  
> Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel? 
> cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> wxperl-users mailing list
> wxp...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users

Daniell Freed
win...@gm...
Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets...

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Daniell F. <win...@gm...>]

I would second the vote for wxPerl IDE.  I've used Vim, Kate, Komodo,  
TextMate (on OS X), and none of them really are a great Perl IDE.   
TextMate is by far the best of those, but it lacks real IDE features  
like GUI designer, code completion, and inline syntax checking.

Thanks,
Dan Freed

On Feb 12, 2007, at 6:19 PM, Mark Dootson wrote:

> Huub,
>
> If you get this underway then certainly, I would be happy to  
> contribute.
>
> Like others, I'm not sure it will have the effect you hope for - but
> that's just opinion at this point.
>
> "Killer App" - I'm not so sure on this either. I tend to think 'Killer
> Platform / Framework' and it seems to me that Eric's 'Web 3.0' just
> about hits the nail on the head.
>
> I would say we need a wxPerl IDE written in wxPerl that in itself  
> should
> demonstrate:
>
> One way of separating out the GUI code from the logic code.
> One approach to the POE problem.
> A bunch of wizards for common interface elements.
>
> This is non-trivial as, Perl being Perl, we'd probably spend an
> inordinate amount of time arguing about whether building an IDE  
> that by
> its nature would be prescriptive about how the GUI code was structured
> was a good idea at all, let alone ever agreeing on what that  
> particular
> structure should be. I call it an IDE rather than a 'Dialog  
> Designer' as
> I would regard it as necessary for an app of this type to impose a
> structure on the GUI code and I'd regard that as a positive thing.
>
> We need a bunch of 'data aware' controls and a common data interface
> that fits with Erics 'Web 3.0' analogy - Prior list postings would
> suggest that much work towards this has been done in some form or
> another. Whether this would end up as a DBI::Web3 or a Web3::Recordset
> type of thing I'm not sure at present. But Wx::DataGrid and  
> Wx::DataCtrl
> are a must.
>
> We need a report designer GUI that makes it easier to produce  
> formatted
> printed output. Yep - I know CPAN's awash with possible solutions for
> coding this - my point would be that we need a high level interface to
> one of these solutions.
>
> With those things in place, there's a chance of getting much wider  
> usage
> for wxPerl.
>
>> From that point, throw PostgreSQL and its support for perl into  
>> the mix
> together with Apache/Modperl and you have the complete ' .PerlWEB3'
> cross platform framework.
>
> It seems to me that the wxPerl C documentation is perfectly good as a
> functional reference.
>
> The real issue is the inordinate amount of time it takes someone to  
> get
> to their first working screen with maybe a functional menu or two.  
> This
> produces a perception that using wxPerl is difficult and time  
> consuming
> - which is the opposite of what any perl effort should be. I don't  
> think
> the answer is a bunch of documentation on how to achieve it. Working
> code in an IDE/Designer would do the job perfectly.
>
> My .NET colleagues may spend twice as long as I do getting their logic
> to work. but they aren't spending their time trying to figure out the
> correct way to exit a program or destroy a frame. This gives them the
> perception that their environment is somehow more productive.
>
> So count me in to contribute to any Wiki / Kwiki.
>
> I'd be very interested in collaborating on any IDE/Designer or 'Web  
> 3.0'
> effort.
>
> Regards
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,  
> security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your  
> job easier.
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache  
> Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel? 
> cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> wxperl-users mailing list
> wxp...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users

Daniell Freed
win...@gm...
Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve'et ha'arets...

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Mark D. <mar...@zn...>]

Huub,

If you get this underway then certainly, I would be happy to contribute.

Like others, I'm not sure it will have the effect you hope for - but
that's just opinion at this point.

"Killer App" - I'm not so sure on this either. I tend to think 'Killer
Platform / Framework' and it seems to me that Eric's 'Web 3.0' just
about hits the nail on the head.

I would say we need a wxPerl IDE written in wxPerl that in itself should
demonstrate:

One way of separating out the GUI code from the logic code.
One approach to the POE problem.
A bunch of wizards for common interface elements.

This is non-trivial as, Perl being Perl, we'd probably spend an
inordinate amount of time arguing about whether building an IDE that by
its nature would be prescriptive about how the GUI code was structured
was a good idea at all, let alone ever agreeing on what that particular
structure should be. I call it an IDE rather than a 'Dialog Designer' as
I would regard it as necessary for an app of this type to impose a
structure on the GUI code and I'd regard that as a positive thing.

We need a bunch of 'data aware' controls and a common data interface
that fits with Erics 'Web 3.0' analogy - Prior list postings would
suggest that much work towards this has been done in some form or
another. Whether this would end up as a DBI::Web3 or a Web3::Recordset
type of thing I'm not sure at present. But Wx::DataGrid and Wx::DataCtrl
are a must.

We need a report designer GUI that makes it easier to produce formatted
printed output. Yep - I know CPAN's awash with possible solutions for
coding this - my point would be that we need a high level interface to
one of these solutions.

With those things in place, there's a chance of getting much wider usage
for wxPerl.

>From that point, throw PostgreSQL and its support for perl into the mix
together with Apache/Modperl and you have the complete ' .PerlWEB3'
cross platform framework.

It seems to me that the wxPerl C documentation is perfectly good as a
functional reference.

The real issue is the inordinate amount of time it takes someone to get
to their first working screen with maybe a functional menu or two. This
produces a perception that using wxPerl is difficult and time consuming
- which is the opposite of what any perl effort should be. I don't think
the answer is a bunch of documentation on how to achieve it. Working
code in an IDE/Designer would do the job perfectly.

My .NET colleagues may spend twice as long as I do getting their logic
to work. but they aren't spending their time trying to figure out the
correct way to exit a program or destroy a frame. This gives them the
perception that their environment is somehow more productive.

So count me in to contribute to any Wiki / Kwiki.

I'd be very interested in collaborating on any IDE/Designer or 'Web 3.0'
effort.

Regards

Mark

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Donovan A. <al...@Zo...>]

> Well, dotReader is not just another POD reader, though I've been
> thinking lately about a POD plugin :-D

> It is maybe getting somewhat complicated to use as examples, but the =
GUI
> stuff is rather cleanly separated from the rest (even if some of the
> GUI code is sort of messy due to wxGlade brainrot, but we've dropped
> glade completely and are slowly cleaning that up.)  Note on
> perlishness:  XRC isn't it.=20
Lol...wXGlade brainrot...hehe.  I like that.  Yep.  It is easy for me to =
wave the wand of "keep your GUI code from logic code", but obviously it =
isn't exactly that easy.  My code hackery breaks this rule on a regular =
(if not habitual) basis.
=20
And don't get me wrong...there are many of us making perfectly good =
products with WxPerl...just so far, very niche software in very niche =
markets that I have seen (and made).
=20
DotReader looks cool, but I wonder if the horde of people is there to =
leverage into general WxPerl interest...dunno.  If it can help blog =
drones spy into other peoples lives better, then could be. ;-)
=20
That being said, it might be a good way to start, and maybe instead of =
one amazing app upfront, we can use our own apps as foundations for the =
educational/demo material, but rather than just either toss them out as =
open source stuff that people can look at, rework them into more formal =
educational material (tutorials, cookbooks, whatever).

> I think our CMT Manager/Minion stuff is pretty interesting -- it is my
> way of dodging POE without threading.  Iterators are pretty simple, =
and
> they don't require you to turn your entire architecture on its head.
=20
Agreed.  Actually, at this point, just about any solution looks better =
to me than POE.  After walking the POE road, I am backing out now and =
re-working the problem with a combination of things.  I think POE is =
pretty neat, but to turn my code on its head and still not get true =
concurrency is really just not turning out to be worth it.  If I want to =
mangle my architecure, I better get more for it.

> And, as I mentioned before, we're working on Wx::WebCore.

And I will welcome that with open arms!

> I have some thoughts on the DC thing, but as I'm not working on CAD =
apps
> anymore, I'll not go into that except to say that any perl app doing
> pixel calculations (including, in particular, "$y =3D $h - $y" =
inversion
> junk) is doomed.  None of the canvases are up to the job because they
> don't provide enough of a high-level interface to the coordinate =
system
> and the overall data model, plus their concept of entities is rather
> specific to on-screen drawing rather than geometric modeling.  =
Tk::Zinc
> was neat, but was missing quite a few things.  wxCairo?  Yes, please!

DCs was just an example of my point about things that are unclear and =
non-trivial to a new WxPerl user.   A CAD app in perl is madness (which =
is the sort of statement that invites it to be done...heh).

> I agree that we need perl-specific documentation.  But think about
> building a CAD app in Perl, because this is the extreme example -- we
> also need a perlish API (one that provides brevity, deeply layered
> complexity, and acknowledges that an interpreted language needs to be
> able to ball-up big, common tasks and throw them at some high-level
> interface to compiled code.)

Agreed.  But, I think that the perlish API could come out of the killer =
app by necessity (or at least be born from), which is more or less what =
my point is as a whole.
=20
The killer app breeds and propogates these things:
* Tutorial material
* Example source
* Demo of WxPerl
* Marketing
* Higher level APIs (developed for the app and designed by the =
community)
* Improvements to WxPerl (out of necessity to get the bits we need =
working)
* Make the world a better place (one open source app at a time)
=20
One very useful thing of a community website would be to document what =
would be useful contributions... like what people would like to ball-up =
big in higher level APIs that are generic enough to be useful to many.

________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of Eric =
Wilhelm
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 1:22 PM
To: wxp...@li...
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...



# from Donovan Allen
# on Monday 12 February 2007 11:52 am:

>Something in the realm of a killer app that can server as a cool demo
> of WxPerl, a fount of examples (maybe written in a way that is more
> optimal to serve as examples of component/widget use that could be
> stripped and used in other peoples apps).  This app would perhaps be
> useful outside of the community itself.  You know, get people who
> aren't perl coders downloading it to use and get both WxPerl and Perl
> as a language more exposure.  Therefore, this app should also not be
> for Perl itself (not another POD reader!!!).

Well, dotReader is not just another POD reader, though I've been
thinking lately about a POD plugin :-D

It is maybe getting somewhat complicated to use as examples, but the GUI
stuff is rather cleanly separated from the rest (even if some of the
GUI code is sort of messy due to wxGlade brainrot, but we've dropped
glade completely and are slowly cleaning that up.)  Note on
perlishness:  XRC isn't it.

I think our CMT Manager/Minion stuff is pretty interesting -- it is my
way of dodging POE without threading.  Iterators are pretty simple, and
they don't require you to turn your entire architecture on its head.

I've also done quite a lot to get the PAR/appbundle stuff working,
though the mac build remains stuck as a universal 10.4 (no 10.3, 10.2
without installing two cpan trees.)  To deal with the overall size, the
recent multi-part par approach does something of a SplashFast (but with
some .par juggling) to get the splash screen out within a couple
seconds.

And, as I mentioned before, we're working on Wx::WebCore.

And, if I haven't been clear, dotReader is GPL.

  http://dotreader.com/

I have some thoughts on the DC thing, but as I'm not working on CAD apps
anymore, I'll not go into that except to say that any perl app doing
pixel calculations (including, in particular, "$y =3D $h - $y" inversion
junk) is doomed.  None of the canvases are up to the job because they
don't provide enough of a high-level interface to the coordinate system
and the overall data model, plus their concept of entities is rather
specific to on-screen drawing rather than geometric modeling.  Tk::Zinc
was neat, but was missing quite a few things.  wxCairo?  Yes, please!

I agree that we need perl-specific documentation.  But think about
building a CAD app in Perl, because this is the extreme example -- we
also need a perlish API (one that provides brevity, deeply layered
complexity, and acknowledges that an interpreted language needs to be
able to ball-up big, common tasks and throw them at some high-level
interface to compiled code.)

BTW, the TAPx project would love to have a wxPerl gui test harness
example.  There's something that could be used by many perl
programmers, even programmers of other languages, and has a small, but
non-trivial issue of IPC with running children in a fork.  IMO, it
would also be a great place to apply a Wx::TreeListCtrl widget.

--Eric
--
Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory
almost as soon as you feel it.
--Paul Graham
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, =
security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job =
easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache =
Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat=3D=
121642
_______________________________________________
wxperl-users mailing list
wxp...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Johan V. <jvr...@sq...>]

"Donovan Allen" <al...@Zo...> writes:

> 1> Something in the realm of a killer app [...] This app would
>    perhaps be useful outside of the community itself. [...]
>    Therefore, this app should also not be for Perl itself

Not a killer, but nevertheless...
http://johan.vromans.org/software/sw_palmkeyring.html

Under construction:
http://www.eekboek.nl/scrshots/index.html

Also: http://johan.vromans.org/articles/wxglade.pdf

HTH

-- Johan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Johan Vromans                                           jvr...@sq...
Squirrel Consultancy                                  Exloo, the Netherlands
http://www.squirrel.nl                              http://johan.vromans.org
PGP Key 1024D/1298C2B4                  http://johan.vromans.org/pgpkey.html
----------------------- "Arms are made for hugging" ------------------------

[wxperl-users] WxPerl Documentation (DEMO)

[RUBEN V. <ad...@nu...>]

Hi.

Dear People. I have start creating WxPerl Documentation width examples :)

If you want to help. please send examples to ad...@nu... :))

10x to all :)

and sorry for my English :)))


website:  http://xmedia.zero-lan.net/wxperl


--
BEST REGARDS: VARELJYAN RUBEN (GNOME)

CONTACT INFORMATION
ICQ: 132830009
Mob: (37493) 51-84-58
E-Mail: ad...@nu...
        pc...@fr...

Re: [wxperl-users] wxWidgets web browser

[Peter T. <pe...@Pe...>]

<html>
<body>
<font size=3>At 02:12 AM 2/12/2007, Donovan Allen wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">You can use both IE and Mozilla
via ActiveX for Wx (search the mail list for more on those topics).&nbsp;
<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I cannot comment much on the javascript aspect, but an idea might to be
to run the process as another user and disable the setting.&nbsp; A
better approach might be to slurp the web page down via LWP, chop out the
&lt;SCRIPT&gt; sections, and load into browser from temp
file...</font></blockquote><br>
That's not a bad idea. Except if I load it via a local file any img tags
using relative URLs won't work... But that's fixable...<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=3>&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br><br>
________________________________<br><br>
From: wxp...@li... on behalf of Peter
Theobald<br>
Sent: Sun 2/11/2007 7:18 AM<br>
To: wxp...@li...<br>
Cc: wxp...@li...<br>
Subject: [wxperl-users] wxWidgets web browser<br><br>
<br><br>
I am trying to have an embedded web browser in my wxperl program.<br>
The most important thing is I can NOT have Javascript running because it
often changes the underlying source of the page and I need to display the
original page/html as it is pulled off the web site.<br><br>
I am trying to use HtmlWindow but the images are not displaying, I
suspect because HtmlWindow doesn't pull anything off the Internet
automatically. Parsing the HTML for img tags and downloading the images
separately sounds like a bad idea, mostly because I suspect I would have
to match the directory hierarchy of the web server I am pulling from and
change any absolute image URLs to relative urls.<br><br>
Are there any suggestions for displaying web pages inside a wxWidgets
program? Is there a better way to make HtmlWindow work as a browser, or a
better widget? Is there an easy way to embed IE or Firefox in a wxWidgets
frame with Javascript disabled (without disabling it for the user's
&quot;real&quot; browser as well)?<br><br>
Thanks,<br>
Peter Theobald<br><br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
security?<br>
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
easier.<br>
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
Geronimo<br>
<a href="http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&amp;kid=120709&amp;bid=263057&amp;dat=121642" eudora="autourl">http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&amp;kid=120709&amp;bid=263057&amp;dat=121642</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
wxperl-users mailing list<br>
wxp...@li...<br>
<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users" eudora="autourl">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users</a><br><br>
<br><br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
security?<br>
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
easier.<br>
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
Geronimo<br>
<a href="http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&amp;kid=120709&amp;bid=263057&amp;dat=121642" eudora="autourl">http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&amp;kid=120709&amp;bid=263057&amp;dat=121642</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
wxperl-users mailing list<br>
wxp...@li...<br>
<a href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users" eudora="autourl">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users</a></blockquote>
<x-sigsep><p></x-sigsep>
__--=Peter Theobald=--__<br>
<a href="http://www.petertheobald.com/" eudora="autourl">www.PeterTheobald.com<br>
</a></font></body>
</html>

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Eric W. <scr...@gm...>]

# from Donovan Allen
# on Monday 12 February 2007 11:52 am:

>Something in the realm of a killer app that can server as a cool demo
> of WxPerl, a fount of examples (maybe written in a way that is more
> optimal to serve as examples of component/widget use that could be
> stripped and used in other peoples apps). =A0This app would perhaps be
> useful outside of the community itself. =A0You know, get people who
> aren't perl coders downloading it to use and get both WxPerl and Perl
> as a language more exposure. =A0Therefore, this app should also not be
> for Perl itself (not another POD reader!!!).

Well, dotReader is not just another POD reader, though I've been=20
thinking lately about a POD plugin :-D

It is maybe getting somewhat complicated to use as examples, but the GUI=20
stuff is rather cleanly separated from the rest (even if some of the=20
GUI code is sort of messy due to wxGlade brainrot, but we've dropped=20
glade completely and are slowly cleaning that up.)  Note on=20
perlishness:  XRC isn't it.

I think our CMT Manager/Minion stuff is pretty interesting -- it is my=20
way of dodging POE without threading.  Iterators are pretty simple, and=20
they don't require you to turn your entire architecture on its head.

I've also done quite a lot to get the PAR/appbundle stuff working,=20
though the mac build remains stuck as a universal 10.4 (no 10.3, 10.2=20
without installing two cpan trees.)  To deal with the overall size, the=20
recent multi-part par approach does something of a SplashFast (but with=20
some .par juggling) to get the splash screen out within a couple=20
seconds.

And, as I mentioned before, we're working on Wx::WebCore.

And, if I haven't been clear, dotReader is GPL.

  http://dotreader.com/

I have some thoughts on the DC thing, but as I'm not working on CAD apps=20
anymore, I'll not go into that except to say that any perl app doing=20
pixel calculations (including, in particular, "$y =3D $h - $y" inversion=20
junk) is doomed.  None of the canvases are up to the job because they=20
don't provide enough of a high-level interface to the coordinate system=20
and the overall data model, plus their concept of entities is rather=20
specific to on-screen drawing rather than geometric modeling.  Tk::Zinc=20
was neat, but was missing quite a few things.  wxCairo?  Yes, please!

I agree that we need perl-specific documentation.  But think about=20
building a CAD app in Perl, because this is the extreme example -- we=20
also need a perlish API (one that provides brevity, deeply layered=20
complexity, and acknowledges that an interpreted language needs to be=20
able to ball-up big, common tasks and throw them at some high-level=20
interface to compiled code.)

BTW, the TAPx project would love to have a wxPerl gui test harness=20
example.  There's something that could be used by many perl=20
programmers, even programmers of other languages, and has a small, but=20
non-trivial issue of IPC with running children in a fork.  IMO, it=20
would also be a great place to apply a Wx::TreeListCtrl widget.

=2D-Eric
=2D-=20
Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory
almost as soon as you feel it.
=2D-Paul Graham
=2D--------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
=2D--------------------------------------------------

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Donovan A. <al...@Zo...>]

And if you think my killer app concept is worth following, Gallery has =
been mentioned in an article about the best of free software...
=20
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2090787,00.asp
=20
Are there any apps in here that we can either improve upon with a =
utility or replace with something better and usurp their glory =
(bwhahahahaha)?
=20

________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of Donovan =
Allen
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 11:52 AM
To: wxperl-users
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...



I think that the problem is more complicated than it seems and the =
things you recommend...I really wonder how much they will help, not that =
I fault you at all for taking intitative (which is really 100x more than =
I have done for WxPerl).

For example, I think tutorials could be ok, but are typically flawed =
since they usually demonstrate how to use features that are already easy =
to grasp from code examples and documentation.
Some omnipotent being knows we don't need more "how to make a window and =
add a button" tutorials.

Most tutorials never bring the user the undocumented, unexplored, or =
more complex components, which is usually what people actually need in =
order to write any useful program.  Additionally, anyone who actually =
gets some use from "beginner" tutorials, they will immediately be frozen =
in place by some other aspect of writing their GUI application in perl =
(ie., blocking on some operation outside of the GUI) and unless they are =
devoted enough to the project to get past also learning something like =
POE and god knows what else, they will jump ship.

After writing a rather large and complex peice of software (distributed =
network kiosk multimedia & interactive player & control system) with =
perl, POE, and Wx (and lots of blood and sacrifices), I can honestly say =
that the problem is much larger than Wx (and that Wx was't much of a =
problem all in all).

I don't have the magical answers, but I also have much frustration about =
the lack of both interest and community around perl & any GUI toolkit.  =
I have been thinking of jumping the perl ship for about a year now.  It =
is just getting more and more difficult to do my job with this language. =
 The world, for better or worse, wants GUIs, multi-threaded (real =
threads...multiple CPUs you know), and media and/or web =
intensive/enabled software.  Software is becoming to complex to have to =
sweat the basics.

So...what am I leading to with all this babble you ask?

What WxPerl ultimately needs are 2 things:

1> More people contributing to the documentation (actual WxPerl =
documentation) w/partial examples of more complicated features (aka =
using DCs in WxPerl for example).

2> More people working on Wx (and related extensions) itself

So how do we get there? ...some ideas:

1> Something in the realm of a killer app that can server as a cool demo =
of WxPerl, a fount of examples (maybe written in a way that is more =
optimal to serve as examples of component/widget use that could be =
stripped and used in other peoples apps).  This app would perhaps be =
useful outside of the community itself.  You know, get people who aren't =
perl coders downloading it to use and get both WxPerl and Perl as a =
language more exposure.  Therefore, this app should also not be for Perl =
itself (not another POD reader!!!).

I realize that this goal sounds lofty, but the mother of invention is =
necessity after all, and if you build a killer open source app that =
becomes popular, some of that excitement will bleed back down into =
WxPerl and maybe other aspects of perl that will help all Wx apps move =
forward.

I honestly don't think there is a better approach than this (nor do I =
believe there is an easier one).  We have seen it many times in open =
source...open source works by demand and numbers.  If you don't have the =
support of a large community, then your project suffers and eventually =
stalls.

So what kind of app then?  Well, good question, but ideally it might =
solve a problem for some other open source project that is popular.  You =
know, target something that people already use, like MySQL, Apache, =
Gallery (http://gallery.menalto.com/), PhpBB, or PhpNuke for example.

For example, I have written an app using Win32::GUI that provides bulk =
upload of images to a media asset system and includes file =
drag-and-drop, image thumbnails/previews, IPTC/EXIF editing, global =
metadata fields, and asynchronous HTTP upload of files to webserver app. =
 This sort of thing could easily be written in WxPerl and latch onto =
Gallery instead.  Not so sure it is the killer app tho.

So...what current problem out there can we solve as a community?

2> It might be worth the effort of combing forces with Win32::GUI.  =
Things like the ActiveX extension are almost identical code wise =
(infact, the Wx ActiveX was derived and mostly unaltered from the =
Win32::GUI version), so certain modules could become more toolkit =
generic and reduce redundant efforts, therefore hopefully also gaining a =
larger dev base.

Additionally, generic GUI concepts and community sources have some =
overlap. It is possible that some of the perl GUI woes come from lack of =
general GUI programming knowledge and concepts in the perl world.  Lets =
face it, when the world pegs a language as a CGI scripting =
language...ahem...anyway.  A DC is a DC...but for some...wth is it?  I =
think basic concepts of deeper concepts should be illustrated in any =
educational material for any API.

3> A WxPerl book.  Books are neat...any volunteers? hehe

4> A WxPerl cookbook? - cookbooks, in my mind anyway, has really killed =
the tutorial star.

Anyway, my 35 cents towards this thought (and some ranting along the =
way).

As for personal contribution...well, I am happy to contribute to a =
concept that I think will succeed, so ... intently waiting for someone =
else to run with the ball first. :-P

________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of John Ralls
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 9:56 AM
To: wxperl-users
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...




On Feb 12, 2007, at 7:57 AM, Huub Peters wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> I know many others have proposed it in the past and (maybe not so)
> many
> initiatives have been actually executed but we really need a central
> community kind of place.
>
> The german wiki (http://www.wxperl.de) is a mess (spammed all the time
> and even a defacing at this moment).
> The wiki at http://wxperl.pvoice.org/kwiki/ is a nice effort but only
> thanks to some users (or even only one? jralls?) it is staying free of
> spam but there are no new articles posted at all. Why? Don't know.
> It's probably not  known and personaly I just don't like the Kwiki-
> software
> but that's a matter of taste off course.
> (On a side note: Jouke (whose place this wiki is hosted on) has
> anounced
> on his weblog on 24-09-2006 that he will be offline for an
> undetermined
> ammount of time due to personal issues. Otherwise I would have
> taken this
> up with him directly to begin with.)
>
> There are other spots with excelent stuff (like gigi.co.uk) but I
> only heard
> about that on this list and it is decentralized this way.
>
> I can go on with being negative and summing up what I think is "wrong"
> and compare to "the great wxPython community" but that won't solve
> a thing
> so here's what I came up with:
>
> * I took the liberty of registering wxperl.info.
>   A good domain name improves "findability"
> * I'm in the lucky position of having hosting facilities and a lot of
>    fast bandwidth to go with it that I can use. (the company where
> I work
>    has no problems with me using it)
> * I started writing this mail :-)
>
> So what's next...?
> Next I need ideas and help.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
> * We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.
>    Something like "Mediawiki" (the heart of Wikipedia) but offcourse I
>    can't live with a perl community on a php-driven site so after some
>    searching I found Twiki: http://www.twiki.org which looks robust
> enough
>    to me.
> * We need tutorials
> * We need Howto's.
> * We need tips and tricks.
> * Maybe write up the problems and solutions from the mailing list.
> * Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash
> with
>   the mailing list)
> * Show of your work.
>
> Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and
> experts can
> teach and learn about wxPerl.
> I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow
> to be as
> big as
> wxPerl deserves it to be.
>
> E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
> maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.
>
> Huub Peters

The biggest problem for any wiki is spam. Before Jouke installed the
updates to Kwiki last summer, one of which required that a user
register before editing a page, the wxWiki was getting hit several
times a day. Since, it has been hit exactly once.

I'm also not terribly fond of Kwiki in general, though. It's
remarkably fragile. Jouke has not seemed ever to have much time for
maintaining it, and several things are broken. I don't think that you
should entertain the constraint that the underlying software must run
on perl. It's far more important that it be robust, secure, and easy
to edit and maintain. Mediawiki has an excellent track record on all
counts. For your sanity, though, the software should also be easy to
install, maintain, and administer. I have no experience in that
regard with Mediawiki or any other wiki software, so I can't make any
recommendations.

Regardless of that, I suspect that the biggest problem is getting
people to sign up, and to write articles. There are only 10
registered users on Jouke's wiki, most of whom are regulars here,
too. (One is Manuel Renz, who says on his user-page that he's the one
behind wsperl.de -- and who hasn't posted here since last April).
You're on that list too, as is Mark Dootson, Herbert Bruening, and of
course Mattia. Many other regulars aren't, but that doesn't mean that
they didn't at some point contribute. AFAICT, no one has added
anything useful since Jouke set it to require that one be a
registered user to edit. One can't see the edit history beyond six
months with the tools at hand, but I don't remember any non-spam
content being added in at least a year.

The point of that last paragraph is that the problem with the present
wiki isn't spam any more, it's getting people to write for it. Do you
have a plan for that?

(The lack of entries might be partly due to the lousy software, but I
don't think that that contributes much to the problem. It might be
due to a not-very-intuitive layout, but that could be fixed pretty
easily by anyone with time and a better idea.)

Bottom line: We've got a couple of places for the community to
gather. It seems to like this one better than the wiki. Why do you
think another wiki will change that?

Regards,
John Ralls


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, =
security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job =
easier.
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Geronimo
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_______________________________________________
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wxp...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, =
security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job =
easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache =
Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat=3D=
121642
_______________________________________________
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Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Donovan A. <al...@Zo...>]

I think that the problem is more complicated than it seems and the =
things you recommend...I really wonder how much they will help, not that =
I fault you at all for taking intitative (which is really 100x more than =
I have done for WxPerl).
=20
For example, I think tutorials could be ok, but are typically flawed =
since they usually demonstrate how to use features that are already easy =
to grasp from code examples and documentation.=20
Some omnipotent being knows we don't need more "how to make a window and =
add a button" tutorials.
=20
Most tutorials never bring the user the undocumented, unexplored, or =
more complex components, which is usually what people actually need in =
order to write any useful program.  Additionally, anyone who actually =
gets some use from "beginner" tutorials, they will immediately be frozen =
in place by some other aspect of writing their GUI application in perl =
(ie., blocking on some operation outside of the GUI) and unless they are =
devoted enough to the project to get past also learning something like =
POE and god knows what else, they will jump ship.
=20
After writing a rather large and complex peice of software (distributed =
network kiosk multimedia & interactive player & control system) with =
perl, POE, and Wx (and lots of blood and sacrifices), I can honestly say =
that the problem is much larger than Wx (and that Wx was't much of a =
problem all in all).
=20
I don't have the magical answers, but I also have much frustration about =
the lack of both interest and community around perl & any GUI toolkit.  =
I have been thinking of jumping the perl ship for about a year now.  It =
is just getting more and more difficult to do my job with this language. =
 The world, for better or worse, wants GUIs, multi-threaded (real =
threads...multiple CPUs you know), and media and/or web =
intensive/enabled software.  Software is becoming to complex to have to =
sweat the basics.
=20
So...what am I leading to with all this babble you ask?
=20
What WxPerl ultimately needs are 2 things:
=20
1> More people contributing to the documentation (actual WxPerl =
documentation) w/partial examples of more complicated features (aka =
using DCs in WxPerl for example).
=20
2> More people working on Wx (and related extensions) itself
=20
So how do we get there? ...some ideas:
=20
1> Something in the realm of a killer app that can server as a cool demo =
of WxPerl, a fount of examples (maybe written in a way that is more =
optimal to serve as examples of component/widget use that could be =
stripped and used in other peoples apps).  This app would perhaps be =
useful outside of the community itself.  You know, get people who aren't =
perl coders downloading it to use and get both WxPerl and Perl as a =
language more exposure.  Therefore, this app should also not be for Perl =
itself (not another POD reader!!!).
=20
I realize that this goal sounds lofty, but the mother of invention is =
necessity after all, and if you build a killer open source app that =
becomes popular, some of that excitement will bleed back down into =
WxPerl and maybe other aspects of perl that will help all Wx apps move =
forward.
=20
I honestly don't think there is a better approach than this (nor do I =
believe there is an easier one).  We have seen it many times in open =
source...open source works by demand and numbers.  If you don't have the =
support of a large community, then your project suffers and eventually =
stalls.
=20
So what kind of app then?  Well, good question, but ideally it might =
solve a problem for some other open source project that is popular.  You =
know, target something that people already use, like MySQL, Apache, =
Gallery (http://gallery.menalto.com/), PhpBB, or PhpNuke for example.
=20
For example, I have written an app using Win32::GUI that provides bulk =
upload of images to a media asset system and includes file =
drag-and-drop, image thumbnails/previews, IPTC/EXIF editing, global =
metadata fields, and asynchronous HTTP upload of files to webserver app. =
 This sort of thing could easily be written in WxPerl and latch onto =
Gallery instead.  Not so sure it is the killer app tho.
=20
So...what current problem out there can we solve as a community?
=20
2> It might be worth the effort of combing forces with Win32::GUI.  =
Things like the ActiveX extension are almost identical code wise =
(infact, the Wx ActiveX was derived and mostly unaltered from the =
Win32::GUI version), so certain modules could become more toolkit =
generic and reduce redundant efforts, therefore hopefully also gaining a =
larger dev base.
=20
Additionally, generic GUI concepts and community sources have some =
overlap. It is possible that some of the perl GUI woes come from lack of =
general GUI programming knowledge and concepts in the perl world.  Lets =
face it, when the world pegs a language as a CGI scripting =
language...ahem...anyway.  A DC is a DC...but for some...wth is it?  I =
think basic concepts of deeper concepts should be illustrated in any =
educational material for any API.
=20
3> A WxPerl book.  Books are neat...any volunteers? hehe
=20
4> A WxPerl cookbook? - cookbooks, in my mind anyway, has really killed =
the tutorial star.
=20
Anyway, my 35 cents towards this thought (and some ranting along the =
way).
=20
As for personal contribution...well, I am happy to contribute to a =
concept that I think will succeed, so ... intently waiting for someone =
else to run with the ball first. :-P

________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of John Ralls
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 9:56 AM
To: wxperl-users
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...




On Feb 12, 2007, at 7:57 AM, Huub Peters wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> I know many others have proposed it in the past and (maybe not so)=20
> many
> initiatives have been actually executed but we really need a central
> community kind of place.
>
> The german wiki (http://www.wxperl.de) is a mess (spammed all the time
> and even a defacing at this moment).
> The wiki at http://wxperl.pvoice.org/kwiki/ is a nice effort but only
> thanks to some users (or even only one? jralls?) it is staying free of
> spam but there are no new articles posted at all. Why? Don't know.
> It's probably not  known and personaly I just don't like the Kwiki-
> software
> but that's a matter of taste off course.
> (On a side note: Jouke (whose place this wiki is hosted on) has=20
> anounced
> on his weblog on 24-09-2006 that he will be offline for an=20
> undetermined
> ammount of time due to personal issues. Otherwise I would have=20
> taken this
> up with him directly to begin with.)
>
> There are other spots with excelent stuff (like gigi.co.uk) but I=20
> only heard
> about that on this list and it is decentralized this way.
>
> I can go on with being negative and summing up what I think is "wrong"
> and compare to "the great wxPython community" but that won't solve=20
> a thing
> so here's what I came up with:
>
> * I took the liberty of registering wxperl.info.
>   A good domain name improves "findability"
> * I'm in the lucky position of having hosting facilities and a lot of
>    fast bandwidth to go with it that I can use. (the company where=20
> I work
>    has no problems with me using it)
> * I started writing this mail :-)
>
> So what's next...?
> Next I need ideas and help.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
> * We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.
>    Something like "Mediawiki" (the heart of Wikipedia) but offcourse I
>    can't live with a perl community on a php-driven site so after some
>    searching I found Twiki: http://www.twiki.org which looks robust=20
> enough
>    to me.
> * We need tutorials
> * We need Howto's.
> * We need tips and tricks.
> * Maybe write up the problems and solutions from the mailing list.
> * Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash=20
> with
>   the mailing list)
> * Show of your work.
>
> Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and=20
> experts can
> teach and learn about wxPerl.
> I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow=20
> to be as
> big as
> wxPerl deserves it to be.
>
> E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
> maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.
>
> Huub Peters

The biggest problem for any wiki is spam. Before Jouke installed the=20
updates to Kwiki last summer, one of which required that a user=20
register before editing a page, the wxWiki was getting hit several=20
times a day. Since, it has been hit exactly once.

I'm also not terribly fond of Kwiki in general, though. It's=20
remarkably fragile. Jouke has not seemed ever to have much time for=20
maintaining it, and several things are broken. I don't think that you=20
should entertain the constraint that the underlying software must run=20
on perl. It's far more important that it be robust, secure, and easy=20
to edit and maintain. Mediawiki has an excellent track record on all=20
counts. For your sanity, though, the software should also be easy to=20
install, maintain, and administer. I have no experience in that=20
regard with Mediawiki or any other wiki software, so I can't make any=20
recommendations.

Regardless of that, I suspect that the biggest problem is getting=20
people to sign up, and to write articles. There are only 10=20
registered users on Jouke's wiki, most of whom are regulars here,=20
too. (One is Manuel Renz, who says on his user-page that he's the one=20
behind wsperl.de -- and who hasn't posted here since last April).=20
You're on that list too, as is Mark Dootson, Herbert Bruening, and of=20
course Mattia. Many other regulars aren't, but that doesn't mean that=20
they didn't at some point contribute. AFAICT, no one has added=20
anything useful since Jouke set it to require that one be a=20
registered user to edit. One can't see the edit history beyond six=20
months with the tools at hand, but I don't remember any non-spam=20
content being added in at least a year.

The point of that last paragraph is that the problem with the present=20
wiki isn't spam any more, it's getting people to write for it. Do you=20
have a plan for that?

(The lack of entries might be partly due to the lousy software, but I=20
don't think that that contributes much to the problem. It might be=20
due to a not-very-intuitive layout, but that could be fixed pretty=20
easily by anyone with time and a better idea.)

Bottom line: We've got a couple of places for the community to=20
gather. It seems to like this one better than the wiki. Why do you=20
think another wiki will change that?

Regards,
John Ralls


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, =
security?
Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job =
easier.
Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache =
Geronimo
http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat=3D=
121642
_______________________________________________
wxperl-users mailing list
wxp...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wxperl-users

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Eric W. <scr...@gm...>]

# from Huub Peters
# on Monday 12 February 2007 07:57 am:

Hi Huub,

You make some good points, and I'll address some of them below.  
However, I think you missed a few:

* sourceforge is not working anymore
  * this mailing list gets spammed way more than any other that I'm on
  * their online mail archive is poorly done
  * cvs?  What's cvs?

I think moving all of this to the perl.org infrastructure and switching 
to svn would be a huge improvement.

>Here are some of my ideas:
>* We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.

Firstly, most of what's wrong with the pvoice wiki is that it is 
terminally slow (this is partly latency, at least from the west coast 
of the US -- the ping time from here is 175ms.)  With kwiki and many 
others, editing a page involves at least 2 page loads, and it doesn't 
take too many 3-second delays to lose interest in doing a lot of 
editing.

But why a Wiki?  For wxPerl?

IMNSHO, Web2.0 is dead (and was dead before it started[1].)  I think 
wxPerl is the foundation of Web3.0, which I'll summarize as

  "The network is the network and the computer is the computer."

Also, While "anybody wanders in and edits it" is interesting for 
wikipedia, I'm not sure it applies so much to wxPerl.  If you have 
something worth writing, you are a programmer, so the complexity 
threshold is higher and the tool need not be as simplistic as a wiki.

How about svn and pod?
  http://combust.develooper.com/

>* Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash
> with the mailing list)

Please, no web forums.  A mailing list is much more convenient and 
appropriate.  One without spam would be nice.

Ref: [1] http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~cheshire/rants/Latency.html

--Eric
-- 
Introducing change is like pulling off a bandage: the pain is a memory
almost as soon as you feel it.
--Paul Graham
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

Re: [wxperl-users] embedded web browser

[Eric W. <scr...@gm...>]

# from Peter Theobald
# on Monday 12 February 2007 05:43 am:

>Unless I parse the HTML for image tags, convert them all to a new
> local directory structure and download each image separately :-(

Without an internet fs handler, yeah.  In dotReader, the xhtml is always 
in-memory, but we have the images locally, so we copy them to a temp 
dir and rewrite the links when running wxHTML.

Did you try the LWP hack?  You can subclass UserAgent to remember the 
last absolute url it saw and prepend that to any subsequent relative 
ones.

--Eric
-- 
"Matter will be damaged in direct proportion to its value."
--Murphy's Constant
---------------------------------------------------
    http://scratchcomputing.com
---------------------------------------------------

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[John R. <jr...@ce...>]

On Feb 12, 2007, at 7:57 AM, Huub Peters wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> I know many others have proposed it in the past and (maybe not so)  
> many
> initiatives have been actually executed but we really need a central
> community kind of place.
>
> The german wiki (http://www.wxperl.de) is a mess (spammed all the time
> and even a defacing at this moment).
> The wiki at http://wxperl.pvoice.org/kwiki/ is a nice effort but only
> thanks to some users (or even only one? jralls?) it is staying free of
> spam but there are no new articles posted at all. Why? Don't know.
> It's probably not  known and personaly I just don't like the Kwiki- 
> software
> but that's a matter of taste off course.
> (On a side note: Jouke (whose place this wiki is hosted on) has  
> anounced
> on his weblog on 24-09-2006 that he will be offline for an  
> undetermined
> ammount of time due to personal issues. Otherwise I would have  
> taken this
> up with him directly to begin with.)
>
> There are other spots with excelent stuff (like gigi.co.uk) but I  
> only heard
> about that on this list and it is decentralized this way.
>
> I can go on with being negative and summing up what I think is "wrong"
> and compare to "the great wxPython community" but that won't solve  
> a thing
> so here's what I came up with:
>
> * I took the liberty of registering wxperl.info.
>   A good domain name improves "findability"
> * I'm in the lucky position of having hosting facilities and a lot of
>    fast bandwidth to go with it that I can use. (the company where  
> I work
>    has no problems with me using it)
> * I started writing this mail :-)
>
> So what's next...?
> Next I need ideas and help.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
> * We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.
>    Something like "Mediawiki" (the heart of Wikipedia) but offcourse I
>    can't live with a perl community on a php-driven site so after some
>    searching I found Twiki: http://www.twiki.org which looks robust  
> enough
>    to me.
> * We need tutorials
> * We need Howto's.
> * We need tips and tricks.
> * Maybe write up the problems and solutions from the mailing list.
> * Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash  
> with
>   the mailing list)
> * Show of your work.
>
> Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and  
> experts can
> teach and learn about wxPerl.
> I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow  
> to be as
> big as
> wxPerl deserves it to be.
>
> E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
> maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.
>
> Huub Peters

The biggest problem for any wiki is spam. Before Jouke installed the  
updates to Kwiki last summer, one of which required that a user  
register before editing a page, the wxWiki was getting hit several  
times a day. Since, it has been hit exactly once.

I'm also not terribly fond of Kwiki in general, though. It's  
remarkably fragile. Jouke has not seemed ever to have much time for  
maintaining it, and several things are broken. I don't think that you  
should entertain the constraint that the underlying software must run  
on perl. It's far more important that it be robust, secure, and easy  
to edit and maintain. Mediawiki has an excellent track record on all  
counts. For your sanity, though, the software should also be easy to  
install, maintain, and administer. I have no experience in that  
regard with Mediawiki or any other wiki software, so I can't make any  
recommendations.

Regardless of that, I suspect that the biggest problem is getting  
people to sign up, and to write articles. There are only 10  
registered users on Jouke's wiki, most of whom are regulars here,  
too. (One is Manuel Renz, who says on his user-page that he's the one  
behind wsperl.de -- and who hasn't posted here since last April).  
You're on that list too, as is Mark Dootson, Herbert Bruening, and of  
course Mattia. Many other regulars aren't, but that doesn't mean that  
they didn't at some point contribute. AFAICT, no one has added  
anything useful since Jouke set it to require that one be a  
registered user to edit. One can't see the edit history beyond six  
months with the tools at hand, but I don't remember any non-spam  
content being added in at least a year.

The point of that last paragraph is that the problem with the present  
wiki isn't spam any more, it's getting people to write for it. Do you  
have a plan for that?

(The lack of entries might be partly due to the lousy software, but I  
don't think that that contributes much to the problem. It might be  
due to a not-very-intuitive layout, but that could be fixed pretty  
easily by anyone with time and a better idea.)

Bottom line: We've got a couple of places for the community to  
gather. It seems to like this one better than the wiki. Why do you  
think another wiki will change that?

Regards,
John Ralls

Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Mike S. <Mik...@Do...>]

Huub  - this is great.  Sign me up. :)

Another alternative for a Perl powered site would be WebGUI- they 
recently added a Wiki asset in addition to all the other content 
management assets.  The security features it has might be useful is 
protecting against malicious wiki-spamming, as well as giving us other 
widgets like polls, surveys, quizzes, etc etc etc.  Let me know if you 
want help reviewing/setting something like that up.

Regardless of what web software you use, I'm looking forward to having a 
place to contribute.  Kudos for leaning in.

Mike.


Huub Peters wrote:
> Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and experts can
> teach and learn about wxPerl.
> I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow to be as 
> big as
> wxPerl deserves it to be.
>
> E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
> maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.
>
> Huub Peters
>
>   

[wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Huub P. <hu...@tr...>]

Hello list,

I know many others have proposed it in the past and (maybe not so) many
initiatives have been actually executed but we really need a central
community kind of place.

The german wiki (http://www.wxperl.de) is a mess (spammed all the time
and even a defacing at this moment).
The wiki at http://wxperl.pvoice.org/kwiki/ is a nice effort but only
thanks to some users (or even only one? jralls?) it is staying free of
spam but there are no new articles posted at all. Why? Don't know.
It's probably not  known and personaly I just don't like the Kwiki-software
but that's a matter of taste off course.
(On a side note: Jouke (whose place this wiki is hosted on) has anounced
on his weblog on 24-09-2006 that he will be offline for an undetermined
ammount of time due to personal issues. Otherwise I would have taken this
up with him directly to begin with.)

There are other spots with excelent stuff (like gigi.co.uk) but I only heard
about that on this list and it is decentralized this way.

I can go on with being negative and summing up what I think is "wrong"
and compare to "the great wxPython community" but that won't solve a thing
so here's what I came up with:

* I took the liberty of registering wxperl.info.
  A good domain name improves "findability"
* I'm in the lucky position of having hosting facilities and a lot of
   fast bandwidth to go with it that I can use. (the company where I work
   has no problems with me using it)
* I started writing this mail :-)

So what's next...?
Next I need ideas and help.

Here are some of my ideas:
* We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.
   Something like "Mediawiki" (the heart of Wikipedia) but offcourse I
   can't live with a perl community on a php-driven site so after some
   searching I found Twiki: http://www.twiki.org which looks robust enough
   to me.
* We need tutorials
* We need Howto's.
* We need tips and tricks.
* Maybe write up the problems and solutions from the mailing list.
* Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash with
  the mailing list)
* Show of your work.

Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and experts can
teach and learn about wxPerl.
I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow to be as 
big as
wxPerl deserves it to be.

E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.

Huub Peters