Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...

[Donovan A. <al...@Zo...>]

I think that the problem is more complicated than it seems and the =
things you recommend...I really wonder how much they will help, not that =
I fault you at all for taking intitative (which is really 100x more than =
I have done for WxPerl).
=20
For example, I think tutorials could be ok, but are typically flawed =
since they usually demonstrate how to use features that are already easy =
to grasp from code examples and documentation.=20
Some omnipotent being knows we don't need more "how to make a window and =
add a button" tutorials.
=20
Most tutorials never bring the user the undocumented, unexplored, or =
more complex components, which is usually what people actually need in =
order to write any useful program.  Additionally, anyone who actually =
gets some use from "beginner" tutorials, they will immediately be frozen =
in place by some other aspect of writing their GUI application in perl =
(ie., blocking on some operation outside of the GUI) and unless they are =
devoted enough to the project to get past also learning something like =
POE and god knows what else, they will jump ship.
=20
After writing a rather large and complex peice of software (distributed =
network kiosk multimedia & interactive player & control system) with =
perl, POE, and Wx (and lots of blood and sacrifices), I can honestly say =
that the problem is much larger than Wx (and that Wx was't much of a =
problem all in all).
=20
I don't have the magical answers, but I also have much frustration about =
the lack of both interest and community around perl & any GUI toolkit.  =
I have been thinking of jumping the perl ship for about a year now.  It =
is just getting more and more difficult to do my job with this language. =
 The world, for better or worse, wants GUIs, multi-threaded (real =
threads...multiple CPUs you know), and media and/or web =
intensive/enabled software.  Software is becoming to complex to have to =
sweat the basics.
=20
So...what am I leading to with all this babble you ask?
=20
What WxPerl ultimately needs are 2 things:
=20
1> More people contributing to the documentation (actual WxPerl =
documentation) w/partial examples of more complicated features (aka =
using DCs in WxPerl for example).
=20
2> More people working on Wx (and related extensions) itself
=20
So how do we get there? ...some ideas:
=20
1> Something in the realm of a killer app that can server as a cool demo =
of WxPerl, a fount of examples (maybe written in a way that is more =
optimal to serve as examples of component/widget use that could be =
stripped and used in other peoples apps).  This app would perhaps be =
useful outside of the community itself.  You know, get people who aren't =
perl coders downloading it to use and get both WxPerl and Perl as a =
language more exposure.  Therefore, this app should also not be for Perl =
itself (not another POD reader!!!).
=20
I realize that this goal sounds lofty, but the mother of invention is =
necessity after all, and if you build a killer open source app that =
becomes popular, some of that excitement will bleed back down into =
WxPerl and maybe other aspects of perl that will help all Wx apps move =
forward.
=20
I honestly don't think there is a better approach than this (nor do I =
believe there is an easier one).  We have seen it many times in open =
source...open source works by demand and numbers.  If you don't have the =
support of a large community, then your project suffers and eventually =
stalls.
=20
So what kind of app then?  Well, good question, but ideally it might =
solve a problem for some other open source project that is popular.  You =
know, target something that people already use, like MySQL, Apache, =
Gallery (http://gallery.menalto.com/), PhpBB, or PhpNuke for example.
=20
For example, I have written an app using Win32::GUI that provides bulk =
upload of images to a media asset system and includes file =
drag-and-drop, image thumbnails/previews, IPTC/EXIF editing, global =
metadata fields, and asynchronous HTTP upload of files to webserver app. =
 This sort of thing could easily be written in WxPerl and latch onto =
Gallery instead.  Not so sure it is the killer app tho.
=20
So...what current problem out there can we solve as a community?
=20
2> It might be worth the effort of combing forces with Win32::GUI.  =
Things like the ActiveX extension are almost identical code wise =
(infact, the Wx ActiveX was derived and mostly unaltered from the =
Win32::GUI version), so certain modules could become more toolkit =
generic and reduce redundant efforts, therefore hopefully also gaining a =
larger dev base.
=20
Additionally, generic GUI concepts and community sources have some =
overlap. It is possible that some of the perl GUI woes come from lack of =
general GUI programming knowledge and concepts in the perl world.  Lets =
face it, when the world pegs a language as a CGI scripting =
language...ahem...anyway.  A DC is a DC...but for some...wth is it?  I =
think basic concepts of deeper concepts should be illustrated in any =
educational material for any API.
=20
3> A WxPerl book.  Books are neat...any volunteers? hehe
=20
4> A WxPerl cookbook? - cookbooks, in my mind anyway, has really killed =
the tutorial star.
=20
Anyway, my 35 cents towards this thought (and some ranting along the =
way).
=20
As for personal contribution...well, I am happy to contribute to a =
concept that I think will succeed, so ... intently waiting for someone =
else to run with the ball first. :-P

________________________________

From: wxp...@li... on behalf of John Ralls
Sent: Mon 2/12/2007 9:56 AM
To: wxperl-users
Subject: Re: [wxperl-users] wxPerl Community project...




On Feb 12, 2007, at 7:57 AM, Huub Peters wrote:

> Hello list,
>
> I know many others have proposed it in the past and (maybe not so)=20
> many
> initiatives have been actually executed but we really need a central
> community kind of place.
>
> The german wiki (http://www.wxperl.de) is a mess (spammed all the time
> and even a defacing at this moment).
> The wiki at http://wxperl.pvoice.org/kwiki/ is a nice effort but only
> thanks to some users (or even only one? jralls?) it is staying free of
> spam but there are no new articles posted at all. Why? Don't know.
> It's probably not  known and personaly I just don't like the Kwiki-
> software
> but that's a matter of taste off course.
> (On a side note: Jouke (whose place this wiki is hosted on) has=20
> anounced
> on his weblog on 24-09-2006 that he will be offline for an=20
> undetermined
> ammount of time due to personal issues. Otherwise I would have=20
> taken this
> up with him directly to begin with.)
>
> There are other spots with excelent stuff (like gigi.co.uk) but I=20
> only heard
> about that on this list and it is decentralized this way.
>
> I can go on with being negative and summing up what I think is "wrong"
> and compare to "the great wxPython community" but that won't solve=20
> a thing
> so here's what I came up with:
>
> * I took the liberty of registering wxperl.info.
>   A good domain name improves "findability"
> * I'm in the lucky position of having hosting facilities and a lot of
>    fast bandwidth to go with it that I can use. (the company where=20
> I work
>    has no problems with me using it)
> * I started writing this mail :-)
>
> So what's next...?
> Next I need ideas and help.
>
> Here are some of my ideas:
> * We need a user friendly, nice looking wiki.
>    Something like "Mediawiki" (the heart of Wikipedia) but offcourse I
>    can't live with a perl community on a php-driven site so after some
>    searching I found Twiki: http://www.twiki.org which looks robust=20
> enough
>    to me.
> * We need tutorials
> * We need Howto's.
> * We need tips and tricks.
> * Maybe write up the problems and solutions from the mailing list.
> * Maybe a forum for some nice discussions (alltough it might clash=20
> with
>   the mailing list)
> * Show of your work.
>
> Bottom line: we need a central community where beginners and=20
> experts can
> teach and learn about wxPerl.
> I'm trying to offer the place to start this and hope it will grow=20
> to be as
> big as
> wxPerl deserves it to be.
>
> E-mail me on or off list with your thoughts/ideas/offers etcetera and
> maybe we'll have a nice community in no time.
>
> Huub Peters

The biggest problem for any wiki is spam. Before Jouke installed the=20
updates to Kwiki last summer, one of which required that a user=20
register before editing a page, the wxWiki was getting hit several=20
times a day. Since, it has been hit exactly once.

I'm also not terribly fond of Kwiki in general, though. It's=20
remarkably fragile. Jouke has not seemed ever to have much time for=20
maintaining it, and several things are broken. I don't think that you=20
should entertain the constraint that the underlying software must run=20
on perl. It's far more important that it be robust, secure, and easy=20
to edit and maintain. Mediawiki has an excellent track record on all=20
counts. For your sanity, though, the software should also be easy to=20
install, maintain, and administer. I have no experience in that=20
regard with Mediawiki or any other wiki software, so I can't make any=20
recommendations.

Regardless of that, I suspect that the biggest problem is getting=20
people to sign up, and to write articles. There are only 10=20
registered users on Jouke's wiki, most of whom are regulars here,=20
too. (One is Manuel Renz, who says on his user-page that he's the one=20
behind wsperl.de -- and who hasn't posted here since last April).=20
You're on that list too, as is Mark Dootson, Herbert Bruening, and of=20
course Mattia. Many other regulars aren't, but that doesn't mean that=20
they didn't at some point contribute. AFAICT, no one has added=20
anything useful since Jouke set it to require that one be a=20
registered user to edit. One can't see the edit history beyond six=20
months with the tools at hand, but I don't remember any non-spam=20
content being added in at least a year.

The point of that last paragraph is that the problem with the present=20
wiki isn't spam any more, it's getting people to write for it. Do you=20
have a plan for that?

(The lack of entries might be partly due to the lousy software, but I=20
don't think that that contributes much to the problem. It might be=20
due to a not-very-intuitive layout, but that could be fixed pretty=20
easily by anyone with time and a better idea.)

Bottom line: We've got a couple of places for the community to=20
gather. It seems to like this one better than the wiki. Why do you=20
think another wiki will change that?

Regards,
John Ralls


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