From: Jesse T. <jt...@oe...> - 2012-02-23 20:22:47
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people have already done so much of that hardest parts of this -- a few things tied together end to end I think would help immensely. theres two parts -- it's both setting up a developer system and also getting some kind of server. there's a lot of great work to handle migrations and to use a memory database in leu of a server and a ton of other good tools for getting databases and servers setup but nothing you can do on day one if you were to sit down and try to install. I think we're only a few steps away from getting an installation that can setup a developer system in a single script and if we used, say, AWS as an example where we have some solid deployment stuff already - we can make a one-page wiki that walks you from setting up a dev. machine to connecting to a database and returning some ERRest or something. an end-to-end kind of example app that can run once these installations are complete. maybe just the blog example taken a bit further and made part of the illustrative artifacts of the installation procedure. I know I'll be setting up a new developer system shortly -- I could try to further the automation of a developer install as I do -- On Feb 23, 2012, at 3:09 PM, Pascal Robert <pr...@ma...> wrote: > You nailed it. I did a count of how much wiki pages we have about installing WO and/or WOLips, and I think we had 7 pages. No wonder people who wants to try WO are maybe backing away. And even with Golipse, you still need to install WO and Wonder. > > Rapid stats: in the last 12 months, we have 880 (56.18% of them being new visitors) go on wocommunity.org from people who searched for "webobjects tutorial" on Google. So look like people do have some level of interest in WO. If only 10% of those 880 would become WO developers, well it would recoup the people who left the community (or got into the Apple blackhole). > > Speaking of the Web site, I'm working on a new structure that you can preview here: > > http://wocommunity.org/apps/WebObjects/WOCommunityRest.woa/ra/index.html > > As for helping on the wiki, please join the documentation group (see http://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOCOM/Documentation+Task+Force). > >> Pascal: >> >> Speaking for myself, I really appreciate all of your work on the community. And I admit to being one that did not complete the surveys this year - and should have. Just been too busy raising a kid and working. So, maybe we only lost 9%. :-) >> >> I have no problem helping with items on the list that I am qualified for. Hard to say where WO community will end up. I don't think it will just "die" but it may continue to slowly fade. Or, maybe not. It works. >> >> And I don't agree that you've failed at anything. It's a large undertaking to keep this moving forward. I think your efforts are appreciated. >> >> I would agree that the entry into WO is the most difficult thing. I encountered this yesterday - as an experienced WO developer and still had difficulty finding what I need to find. I'd like to help with the setup stuff on the wiki. That is short of a full installer - but is a good stop-gap measure. >> >> A demonstration. Got a new cat, wanted to install full WO dev environs. >> >> 1. I went to www.wocommunity.org first to follow links there. I clicked on the beautiful "Start" button and ended up here: http://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WONDER/Getting+Started. Which is fine. >> >> 2. Until you click the link to install tools and frameworks and you end up here: http://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WONDER/Project+Wonder+Installation >> >> …where there is a long setup explanation and links to individual downloads of eclipse, etc. No mention of Golipse on that page. >> >> 3. I used the wiki itself to search for "golipse" (a newbie wouldn't know to do this because they still wouldn't know it exists). No results on the wiki search. >> >> 4. I google search "wiki wocommunity golipse" and get this page: >> http://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WO/WO+5.4+Getting+Started >> >> It's a whole other getting started page but is in the deprecated section of the wiki. So a new user is probably never going to find the best installer we have, golipse. Then you still need the WO frameworks. >> >> 5. There is a link on that last page for installing webobjects frameworks but it points to: >> http://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOL/Using+WOLips+With+Multiple+Versions+of+WebObjects >> >> …which is a page about using multiple versions of WO in development - definitely a topic a newbie wouldn't need or want to dive into. >> >> So, I would like to finish my setup, see what works and what doesn't, where the process falters, and re-do the installation page. If no one objects, I would like to clearly have it endorse golipse and WOInstaller.jar and make the page KISS compliant. Any objections? >> >> Tim >> >> On Feb 23, 2012, at 11:06 AM, Ramsey Gurley <rg...@sm...> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Feb 23, 2012, at 10:36 AM, Pascal Robert wrote: >>> >>>> (Sending this to the wonder-disc list since lists.apple.com is delivering posts with a 2-3 hours delay, again). >>>> >>>> Hi guys, >>>> >>>> A couple of weeks ago, I compiled a sort of Community Roadmap, based on ideas that was shared in the working group and in the surveys. The (quite long) list is on the wiki: >>>> >>>> http://wiki.wocommunity.org/display/WOCOM/Community+Roadmap >>>> >>>> As you can see, it's a pretty long list… And the problem is: who is going to work on those? And this is where my rant is coming to… Ok, it's not really a rant, but anyway. >>> >>> >>> Some of those are done. Some of those are a bit vague :-) Some are just wishful thinking. >>> >>> >>>> Problem we are facing is that the vast majority said in the surveys that you want to keep using WO (we are still loosing at least 10% of the community every year). So we need to improve things but a handful of people are improving things. I'm not expecting that the majority of the community contributes, I never saw a community where the majority contribute. >>> >>> >>> I don't think the 10% leaving is the problem. People change jobs and everyone gets tired of doing something eventually. I think the problem is lack of new developers. There are very few people starting WO these days. The only new users we generally see are because someone got a job where WO is still used. >>> >>> Therefore, either the companies that use WO need to become more successful and expand their developer base or WO needs to be more attractive to new developers. One really successful company out there still using WO seems to gobble up all the WO devs around... :-) So it seems to me the best way to grow the community is to give new developers a reason to choose WO over the other options that are out there. >>> >>> To do that, it just has to be easy to install and allow newbies to achieve some immediate success. If it isn't easy, they'll just give up and go to something like PHP or rails or spring or node or whatever else is out there. I think we also need a way to sell it as Mobile/HTML5 new hotness, but that's secondary. >>> >>> Anyway, I firmly believe that if there's a single project or milestone the community needs in order to grow, it's a simple installer that installs WO, WOLips, wonder, and sets up the eclipse workspace in a wizard-like install. And when the installer completes, it should launch a url to a WOCommunity podcast to walk them through their first wo app. We have bits and pieces of this right now. woinstaller.jar, golips, ... It needs to be an integrated and seamless experience that nobody can fsck up :-) >>> >>> >>>> Also, we don't have any support from Apple and we don't have big corporate sponsors (and most places who develops with WO are one or two guy teams). We need to find a way to get things done. Should we have people being paid for work on the community? Have employees? How can we deal with the fact that most WO experts are working for Apple, leaving the community or are just too busy? Sometimes, I think that WOWODC 2012 should be the last community-driven thing and that the community should just die. >>>> >>>> And as for a personal note: I tried to drive by leadership, and I failed. Maybe the community need a new leader (but at the same time, nobody appointed me as a leader, so it's a bit pretentious from me to say that I'm a leader). >>> >>> >>> I think you're biting off a bit too much for you to chew. Four presentations plus organizing the conference is too much for anyone. You should pick one presentation, two tops. I did two once and while organizing my wedding. That was my limit. It was stressful and it was really hard for me to enjoy the conference because of it. If there are fewer presentations, I for one would be fine with more labs. I usually have more questions from attendees than time at WOWODC. I think most people there would be okay with more time for more one on one q&a. Everyone comes with a laptop and apps and a specific problem or two they want to solve. >>> >>> Ramsey >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning >>> Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing >>> also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. >>> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Wonder-disc mailing list >>> Won...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wonder-disc >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Virtualization & Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning > Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing > also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ > _______________________________________________ > Wonder-disc mailing list > Won...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/wonder-disc |