Thread: RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together
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From: Chris M. <chr...@ho...> - 2002-04-03 21:29:46
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I have had little to do with OS, JBoss or WW as anything other than a user who is very pleased to find high-quality alternatives to some of the Jakarta offerings. However I'd like to add at least $0.01 to this thread. When I first heard mention of WW moving under JBoss's "umbrella" (more like "shadow"), my reaction was "Huh?". It didn't make sense to me. It still doesn't, despite having read through this whole discussion. Tomcat and Struts don't really belong together either, however Jakarta gets away with it because they have 20 or so other equally disparate projects on the go, and people think of Jakarta as a one-stop-shop. About the only thing I can think of that WW stands to gain by being lumped under the same banner as JBoss is (as has been pointed out) a credibility/exposure boost, since JBoss has (AFAICT) a higher profile than WW. I agree this is a good thing. There is a cost to that though, and I think it's quite high - people *will* become confused as to the portability and functionality of WW, and they *will* be hesitant to use it independently to JBoss. JBoss currently has no branding that is equivalent to 'Jakarta' or 'OpenSymphony'. [Rickard I notice in your latest post you say that it is both. Ask the man-on-the-street for his perception, I have a feeling you may not get the same response. A quick poll in the office here certainly suggests otherwise]. The only way to avoid that confusion is to create a *new* brandname that is an umbrella for JBoss and WW, or alternatively go to the trouble of truly establishing JBoss as an umbrella brand, that contains JBoss Application Server, WW etc. But what's the point, when there already exists such a beast going by the name of OpenSymphony? As several people have pointed out in this thread, OpenSymphony is a perfect match for WW. OSUser, Sitemesh et al compliment WW very nicely indeed - surely that cannot be denied? OpenSymphony's 'umbrella' struture parallels Jakarta which will help ease the transition for new users. There have been several other fairly compelling reasons mentioned on this list, all of which to me make the move seem very sensible indeed. I fear my voice is wasted, since, as was pointed out in the not too distant past, we're not dealing with a democracy here. That I can even understand and live with, as long as the decision makers make decisions based on logic rather than desires. Chris Miller |
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From: Rickard <ri...@mi...> - 2002-04-03 22:07:01
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Chris Miller wrote: > The only way to avoid that confusion is to create a > *new* brandname that is an umbrella for JBoss and WW, or alternatively = go to > the trouble of truly establishing JBoss as an umbrella brand, that cont= ains > JBoss Application Server, WW etc. I doubt that will happen. > But what's the point, when there already exists such a beast going by t= he > name of OpenSymphony? What's the point of a Ford when there are Volkswagens? I see where=20 you're going with that point, for sure, but it can be argued the other=20 way round too. Otherwise we would be stuck in the "so why make another=20 framework when we have Struts?" argument still. > As several people have pointed out in this thread, OpenSymphony is a pe= rfect > match for WW. OSUser, Sitemesh et al compliment WW very nicely indeed - > surely that cannot be denied?=20 You are absolutely correct, and I don't think anyone has said otherwise=20 either. > OpenSymphony's 'umbrella' struture parallels > Jakarta which will help ease the transition for new users. There have b= een > several other fairly compelling reasons mentioned on this list, all of = which > to me make the move seem very sensible indeed. The main reason against OpenSymphony (that I can think of) is the high=20 quality differences between the projects. Some are outstanding and some=20 are, well, on the other side of the scale. > I fear my voice is wasted, since, as was pointed out in the not too dis= tant > past, we're not dealing with a democracy here. That I can even understa= nd > and live with, as long as the decision makers make decisions based on l= ogic > rather than desires. I hear you. Good points, and thanks for your input. This is a tough decision, and which is important for the overall=20 direction of WW. I would appreciate if more input as Chris just provided=20 was being put forth. Democracy no, but certainly no dictatorship either=20 (in the strictest sense of the word anyway). /Rickard --=20 Rickard =D6berg |
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From: Chris M. <chr...@ho...> - 2002-04-03 22:32:04
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> > The only way to avoid that confusion is to create a > > *new* brandname that is an umbrella for JBoss and WW, or alternatively go to > > the trouble of truly establishing JBoss as an umbrella brand, that contains > > JBoss Application Server, WW etc. > > I doubt that will happen. Understandable. But what then are your thoughts on people's perceptions of JBoss being an app server vs JBoss being an organisation? Because if you agree that there is some truth to the "JBoss is an app server" mentality, then without rebranding can you also see the potential confusion that could eventuate? I don't profess to be a marketing expert by any means, but it seems a fairly safe bet that it will cause problems. About the only company I can think of that has managed to pull off something like is Coca-Cola, however even they aren't selling drinks & chocolate bars, they're sticking to drinks. OK, shoot me, bad analogy ;-) > > But what's the point, when there already exists such a beast going by the > > name of OpenSymphony? > > What's the point of a Ford when there are Volkswagens? I see where > you're going with that point, for sure, but it can be argued the other > way round too. Otherwise we would be stuck in the "so why make another > framework when we have Struts?" argument still. Yes, but Ford competes directly with VW - I can't see any competition between OS and JBoss (or are you suggesting that would happen by grouping JBoss + WW? I still can't see how). Surely WW is just looking for a home, it's tired of being an orphan for so long :-). The best home isn't necessarily the one with the filmstar. > > As several people have pointed out in this thread, OpenSymphony is a perfect > > match for WW. OSUser, Sitemesh et al compliment WW very nicely indeed - > > surely that cannot be denied? > > You are absolutely correct, and I don't think anyone has said otherwise > either. Then doesn't it make sense for the match to be formalised? > The main reason against OpenSymphony (that I can think of) is the high > quality differences between the projects. Some are outstanding and some > are, well, on the other side of the scale. Agreed. That is something that can and should be addressed. I'll avoid the obvious response to that comment... ah, no, what the heck, can't resist - quality differences never stopped Jakarta ;-). Thanks for considering my response. Chris Miller |
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From: Mike Cannon-B. <mi...@at...> - 2002-04-03 23:22:02
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Might I just say upfront how refreshing this discussion is. Too many Open Source projects are run by arrogant a**holes (no names ;)) who don't make decisions by consulting their users - I think Rickard et al are doing a great job of that! On 4/4/02 8:05 AM, "Rickard" (ri...@mi...) penned the words: > Chris Miller wrote: >> OpenSymphony's 'umbrella' struture parallels >> Jakarta which will help ease the transition for new users. There have been >> several other fairly compelling reasons mentioned on this list, all of which >> to me make the move seem very sensible indeed. > > > The main reason against OpenSymphony (that I can think of) is the high > quality differences between the projects. Some are outstanding and some > are, well, on the other side of the scale. Agreed. Now that I'm back from JavaOne I have two tasks - one being to release JIRA 1.0 (<plug> http://www.atlassian.com/beta/jira </plug> ;)) and the other being to revamp the OpenSymphony site. The revamp is basically to achieve two things: 1) include more information on the released and stable components, and documentation 2) remove / hide all of the cruft (which is exactly what you're saying here). I don't want to 'kill' the cruft, I want to hide it in an attic (until such time as it dies completely or becomes a stable, high quality component). I think there is a delicate balance that needs to be struck between having alpha quality, developing Open Source components (which are needed to become fully fledged, quality components!) and having stable, released, trusted components. The idea being that we advertise the latter, whilst still providing access to the former if you're hardcore/stupid/masochistic ;) The 'stable' component suite will then be: - OSCore - OSUser - SiteMesh - OSCache - Transform Tags Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion. Our aim is not to become Jakarta (a dumping ground for random pieces of code of totally varying quality) but to provide top quality J2EE components, whilst still giving access to the alpha stuff if you want it. Cheers, Mike |
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From: Rickard <ri...@mi...> - 2002-04-04 07:41:34
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Mike Cannon-Brookes wrote: > Might I just say upfront how refreshing this discussion is. Too many Op= en > Source projects are run by arrogant a**holes (no names ;)) who don't ma= ke > decisions by consulting their users - I think Rickard et al are doing a > great job of that! Thank you :-) It's the logical conclusion of realizing that this is a=20 group effort. I mean, like, duh. :-) > I don't want to 'kill' the cruft, I want to hide it in an attic (until = such > time as it dies completely or becomes a stable, high quality component)= . I > think there is a delicate balance that needs to be struck between havin= g > alpha quality, developing Open Source components (which are needed to b= ecome > fully fledged, quality components!) and having stable, released, truste= d > components. Fair enough. > The 'stable' component suite will then be: > - OSCore > - OSUser > - SiteMesh > - OSCache > - Transform Tags=20 Looks good to me. /Rickard --=20 Rickard =D6berg |
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