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From: Patrick L. <pli...@ho...> - 2002-04-04 05:43:54
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OSCache and Sitemesh are both pretty widely recognized products (arcticles on JavaWorld have referenced them). To me this OS vs JBoss sounds like it is coming down to a popularity contest more than "what makes sense"... I seriously hope that isn't the case. The thought that OS "needs" WW more than WW "needs" OS is just silly. I believe it could be a very symbiotic relationship, but clearly some people don't feel that way. On the other hand, if WW joins JBoss, I could just as easily take the parts of WW I require for my OS projects and be done with it, so it's not some sort of critical part needed for the survival of OS. Please... get off your high horse. And in case anyone is counting, here is the stats for the last 30 days (from SF.net) regarding OS and WW: OS 285,035 page views 14,893 downloads WW 51,113 page views 9,485 downloads And being that OS hasn't updated the SF downloads as recently as WW has, I think that says even more about those stats. OS has lots of room for housekeeping and making releases, and I'm pushing for this to happen very soon. When that does happen, I can see those stats easily doubling. I'd love to talk about technical merits as to why this integration could/should happen, but this other talk will get us nowhere. Rickard had talked about a "portal" extension using WebWork (correct me if I'm wrong here). OS could provide many valuable parts to that goal (I know, I use WebWork and OS every day at work). OSCore, OSUser, OSWorkflow, Sitemesh, and OSCache all work very nicely with WebWork currently, but even better integration is possible. WebWork could gain a lot from working closely with OSUser, Sitemesh, and OSCache. Sounds to me though that the decision has already been made. -Pat >From: "Kjetil Paulsen" <kje...@mo...> >To: <web...@li...> >Subject: OS || JBOSS (WAS -> RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together) >Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:22:21 +0200 > >Could somebody enlighten me on how much traffic there are at the OS site >and how many users you have at your mailinglists? After talking to people >at JavaOne and elsewhere, OpenSymphony isn't actually a well-known-name... > >I just have a hard time seeing what we would gain from a OS merger, I do >however see that OS needs WW from the list below ;) > >/kjetilhp > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: François Beauregard [mailto:fbe...@py...] > > Sent: 4. april 2002 05:08 > > To: web...@li... > > Subject: RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together > > > > > > > > I think it makes more sense technically to integrate OS and WW. > > > Even if technically there is no integration to be made? Or > > what would > > > that imply, specifically? > > I have not tought about all the technical possibilities but > > here are some: > > - Unified configuration file > > - Management/Monitoring console > > - Tag libraries > > - I am sure there are ways to take advantage of OSCache in a > > nice manner in > > WW beside simply just using the tags > > - I am sure we can also come up with ideas related to SiteMesh > > - There is probably also oportunities with OSUser > > - Some things in OSCore can probably be migrated into WW and > > then keep very > > general stuff in OSCore move other stuff out of OSCore into OSCoreEJB > > - Other great ideas that would come out of community discussions > > > > Cheers, > > ___________________________ > > François Beauregard, b.ing. > > Vice-président > > Recherche et développement > > Pyxis Technologies > > www.pyxis-tech.com > > > > T : (450) 681-9094, poste 102 > > F : (450) 681-5758 > > fbe...@py... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rickard [mailto:ri...@mi...] > > Sent: April 3, 2002 4:18 PM > > To: fbe...@py... > > Cc: web...@li... > > Subject: Re: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together > > > > > > François Beauregard wrote: > > > > > I think it makes more sense technically to integrate OS and WW. > > > > > > Even if technically there is no integration to be made? Or what would > > that imply, specifically? > > > > > > > The idea is to come up with value added components that can > > be used in any > > > J2EE environment (including JBoss). > > > Mike explained in a previous post the reasoning behind the > > Open Symphony > > > name. > > > Components developed in a truly open source and community > > philosophy that > > > work together as a Symphony. > > > > > > Yes, that is very clear to me. > > > > > > > Therefore, I vote to keep the already made decision of > > slowly integrating > > WW > > > into OS by first : > > > - Create a section for WW on OS's site > > > - Issue a press release annoucing the collaboration, the > > reasonning behind > > > and the goals > > > - Come up with ideas to enhance using OS components and WW together > > (unified > > > configuration file, management console, overlaps, ...). May > > be create a > > > subproject who would be responsible for this. > > > - Components should always be usable on their own but be > > easily integrated > > > in a complete framework for J2EE. This promotes highly > > modularized and > > > customizable components. > > > > > > But this has not much to do with the decision, but rather the > > execution > > of the decision if made in OS's favor. > > > > > > > I also like Mike's idea of a showcase application using WW > > that runs on > > > JBoss and use it a promotion for JBoss, WW and OS. > > > (Please don't start a discussion on joining the three) > > > > > > Hehe... > > > > > > > Bottom line : > > > Integrating OS and WW make sense both technically and from > > a promotion > > point > > > of view. > > > Some combined promotion effort by JBoss and WW also makes sense. > > > > > > Is the technical point about configuration? Or is there more to it? > > > > /Rickard > > > > -- > > Rickard Öberg > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Webwork-devel mailing list > > Web...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel > > > >_______________________________________________ >Webwork-devel mailing list >Web...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com |
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From: Victor S. <vsa...@ho...> - 2002-04-04 05:55:19
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Patrick: I really feel like this discussion is taking us anywhere. It is evident that what starts bad, ends bad, and most of the people involved in WW are not sensible towards any type of merger with OS. So instead of wasting your time and my time, let's discuss a plan towards creating something new that works as a whole under OpenSymphony and discontinue this fruitless pursuit here, after all this is open source and Apache and Microsoft reinvent the wheel everyday and they're are popular. You as well as I do, know that users don't follow projects, they follow people... you figure it out. /V >From: "Patrick Lightbody" <pli...@ho...> >To: kje...@mo..., web...@li... >Subject: Re: OS || JBOSS (WAS -> RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get >together) >Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 21:43:30 -0800 > >OSCache and Sitemesh are both pretty widely recognized products (arcticles >on JavaWorld have referenced them). To me this OS vs JBoss sounds like it >is >coming down to a popularity contest more than "what makes sense"... I >seriously hope that isn't the case. > >The thought that OS "needs" WW more than WW "needs" OS is just silly. I >believe it could be a very symbiotic relationship, but clearly some people >don't feel that way. On the other hand, if WW joins JBoss, I could just as >easily take the parts of WW I require for my OS projects and be done with >it, so it's not some sort of critical part needed for the survival of OS. >Please... get off your high horse. > >And in case anyone is counting, here is the stats for the last 30 days >(from >SF.net) regarding OS and WW: > >OS >285,035 page views >14,893 downloads > >WW >51,113 page views >9,485 downloads > >And being that OS hasn't updated the SF downloads as recently as WW has, I >think that says even more about those stats. OS has lots of room for >housekeeping and making releases, and I'm pushing for this to happen very >soon. When that does happen, I can see those stats easily doubling. > >I'd love to talk about technical merits as to why this integration >could/should happen, but this other talk will get us nowhere. > >Rickard had talked about a "portal" extension using WebWork (correct me if >I'm wrong here). OS could provide many valuable parts to that goal (I know, >I use WebWork and OS every day at work). OSCore, OSUser, OSWorkflow, >Sitemesh, and OSCache all work very nicely with WebWork currently, but even >better integration is possible. WebWork could gain a lot from working >closely with OSUser, Sitemesh, and OSCache. Sounds to me though that the >decision has already been made. > >-Pat > >>From: "Kjetil Paulsen" <kje...@mo...> >>To: <web...@li...> >>Subject: OS || JBOSS (WAS -> RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together) >>Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:22:21 +0200 >> >>Could somebody enlighten me on how much traffic there are at the OS site >>and how many users you have at your mailinglists? After talking to people >>at JavaOne and elsewhere, OpenSymphony isn't actually a well-known-name... >> >>I just have a hard time seeing what we would gain from a OS merger, I do >>however see that OS needs WW from the list below ;) >> >>/kjetilhp >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: François Beauregard [mailto:fbe...@py...] >> > Sent: 4. april 2002 05:08 >> > To: web...@li... >> > Subject: RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together >> > >> > >> > > > I think it makes more sense technically to integrate OS and WW. >> > > Even if technically there is no integration to be made? Or >> > what would >> > > that imply, specifically? >> > I have not tought about all the technical possibilities but >> > here are some: >> > - Unified configuration file >> > - Management/Monitoring console >> > - Tag libraries >> > - I am sure there are ways to take advantage of OSCache in a >> > nice manner in >> > WW beside simply just using the tags >> > - I am sure we can also come up with ideas related to SiteMesh >> > - There is probably also oportunities with OSUser >> > - Some things in OSCore can probably be migrated into WW and >> > then keep very >> > general stuff in OSCore move other stuff out of OSCore into OSCoreEJB >> > - Other great ideas that would come out of community discussions >> > >> > Cheers, >> > ___________________________ >> > François Beauregard, b.ing. >> > Vice-président >> > Recherche et développement >> > Pyxis Technologies >> > www.pyxis-tech.com >> > >> > T : (450) 681-9094, poste 102 >> > F : (450) 681-5758 >> > fbe...@py... >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Rickard [mailto:ri...@mi...] >> > Sent: April 3, 2002 4:18 PM >> > To: fbe...@py... >> > Cc: web...@li... >> > Subject: Re: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together >> > >> > >> > François Beauregard wrote: >> > >> > > I think it makes more sense technically to integrate OS and WW. >> > >> > >> > Even if technically there is no integration to be made? Or what would >> > that imply, specifically? >> > >> > >> > > The idea is to come up with value added components that can >> > be used in any >> > > J2EE environment (including JBoss). >> > > Mike explained in a previous post the reasoning behind the >> > Open Symphony >> > > name. >> > > Components developed in a truly open source and community >> > philosophy that >> > > work together as a Symphony. >> > >> > >> > Yes, that is very clear to me. >> > >> > >> > > Therefore, I vote to keep the already made decision of >> > slowly integrating >> > WW >> > > into OS by first : >> > > - Create a section for WW on OS's site >> > > - Issue a press release annoucing the collaboration, the >> > reasonning behind >> > > and the goals >> > > - Come up with ideas to enhance using OS components and WW together >> > (unified >> > > configuration file, management console, overlaps, ...). May >> > be create a >> > > subproject who would be responsible for this. >> > > - Components should always be usable on their own but be >> > easily integrated >> > > in a complete framework for J2EE. This promotes highly >> > modularized and >> > > customizable components. >> > >> > >> > But this has not much to do with the decision, but rather the >> > execution >> > of the decision if made in OS's favor. >> > >> > >> > > I also like Mike's idea of a showcase application using WW >> > that runs on >> > > JBoss and use it a promotion for JBoss, WW and OS. >> > > (Please don't start a discussion on joining the three) >> > >> > >> > Hehe... >> > >> > >> > > Bottom line : >> > > Integrating OS and WW make sense both technically and from >> > a promotion >> > point >> > > of view. >> > > Some combined promotion effort by JBoss and WW also makes sense. >> > >> > >> > Is the technical point about configuration? Or is there more to it? >> > >> > /Rickard >> > >> > -- >> > Rickard Öberg >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Webwork-devel mailing list >> > Web...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel >> > >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Webwork-devel mailing list >>Web...@li... >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Webwork-devel mailing list >Web...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com |
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From: Rickard <ri...@mi...> - 2002-04-04 07:41:43
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Victor Salaman wrote: > Patrick: >=20 > I really feel like this discussion is taking us anywhere. Me too, I think the discussion is great! We've had lots of good=20 arguments all round. Well, except for.. never mind.. > It is evident=20 > that what starts bad, ends bad, and most of the people involved in WW=20 > are not sensible towards any type of merger with OS. LOL. Dude, you're too funny. Sarcasm is a great way to make a point.=20 (see, I can be ironic too). > So instead of wasting your time and my time, let's discuss a plan=20 > towards creating something new that works as a whole under OpenSymphony= =20 > and discontinue this fruitless pursuit here, after all this is open=20 > source and Apache and Microsoft reinvent the wheel everyday and they're= =20 > are popular. Victor, that's a great idea! Go invent the next big web framework, and=20 when you're done let me know so I can "borrow" whatever good ideas you=20 came up with. > You as well as I do, know that users don't follow projects, they follow= =20 > people... you figure it out. You'll surely get a huge following. Good luck! /Rickard --=20 Rickard =D6berg |
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From: Victor S. <vsa...@ho...> - 2002-04-04 06:00:11
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>Lastly - I am wondering what has changed since JavaOne? The integration >was in the works beforehand. What has changed at JBoss that they are now a >component vendor? > Aside from the fact that Marc Fleury paid for Rickard's ticket, and TSS did not, and that Rickard quit TSS might have to do something with it, but that's just a theory... /V _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx |
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From: Rickard <ri...@mi...> - 2002-04-04 07:41:44
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Victor Salaman wrote: >> Lastly - I am wondering what has changed since JavaOne? The=20 >> integration was in the works beforehand. What has changed at JBoss=20 >> that they are now a component vendor? >=20 > Aside from the fact that Marc Fleury paid for Rickard's ticket, and TSS= =20 > did not, and that Rickard quit TSS might have to do something with it,=20 > but that's just a theory... See, here we go again. Subtle sarcasm. Works wonders in discussions. Victor, if you don't have anything to say, don't say anything. As for the above, it has NOTHING to do with the current discussion. What=20 *is* relevant is that, yes I was at J1, and yes Marc offered to host WW=20 at JBoss, and now we're discussing it. WHAT WOULD YOU WANT ME TO DO=20 VICTOR? Either just do it, or ignore it? Would that be preferred to you?=20 You may have some highly advanced telepathic ability to magically allows=20 you to know what everyone thinks, but I sure don't. So I asked. IT'S=20 THAT SIMPLE. Now, get with the program or go somewhere else. /Rickard --=20 Rickard =D6berg |
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From: Victor S. <vsa...@ho...> - 2002-04-04 07:55:07
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>Me too, I think the discussion is great! We've had lots of good arguments >all round. Well, except for.. never mind.. > Truth hurts doesn't it? >> It is evident that what starts bad, ends bad, and most of the people >>involved in WW are not sensible towards any type of merger with OS. > > >LOL. Dude, you're too funny. Sarcasm is a great way to make a point. (see, >I can be ironic too). > When in doubt, confuse... I only learned from you :) >Victor, that's a great idea! Go invent the next big web framework, and when >you're done let me know so I can "borrow" whatever good ideas you came up >with. > Well, come on, isn't that what you always do? Welcome to open source :) Feel free to "borrow" whatever you like, after all, it's business as usual. > >>You as well as I do, know that users don't follow projects, they follow >>people... you figure it out. > > >You'll surely get a huge following. > I don't measure my ego in terms of how popular I am, or many people download my works. I have a real life and a sucessful business outside of all this, so open source is not my ego-boosting outlet... It is sad to live a life like that. Anyhow, I'm out of here. :) Good luck, /V _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com |
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From: Rickard <ri...@mi...> - 2002-04-04 08:13:16
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Victor Salaman wrote: > Anyhow, I'm out of here. :) Alright, you've been removed as WW developer. > Good luck, Likewise. /Rickard --=20 Rickard =D6berg |
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From: Kjetil P. <kje...@mo...> - 2002-04-04 08:28:22
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I'm not on any high horse - I just asked for some facts and also gave = some. I know that WW isn't very well known and I never stated so, I only = know the quality. I don't botter to take this further. /kjetilhp > OSCache and Sitemesh are both pretty widely recognized=20 > products (arcticles=20 > on JavaWorld have referenced them). To me this OS vs JBoss=20 > sounds like it is=20 > coming down to a popularity contest more than "what makes sense"... I=20 > seriously hope that isn't the case. >=20 > The thought that OS "needs" WW more than WW "needs" OS is=20 > just silly. I=20 > believe it could be a very symbiotic relationship, but=20 > clearly some people=20 > don't feel that way. On the other hand, if WW joins JBoss, I=20 > could just as=20 > easily take the parts of WW I require for my OS projects and=20 > be done with=20 > it, so it's not some sort of critical part needed for the=20 > survival of OS.=20 > Please... get off your high horse. >=20 > And in case anyone is counting, here is the stats for the=20 > last 30 days (from=20 > SF.net) regarding OS and WW: >=20 > OS > 285,035 page views > 14,893 downloads >=20 > WW > 51,113 page views > 9,485 downloads >=20 > And being that OS hasn't updated the SF downloads as recently=20 > as WW has, I=20 > think that says even more about those stats. OS has lots of room for=20 > housekeeping and making releases, and I'm pushing for this to=20 > happen very=20 > soon. When that does happen, I can see those stats easily doubling. >=20 > I'd love to talk about technical merits as to why this integration=20 > could/should happen, but this other talk will get us nowhere. >=20 > Rickard had talked about a "portal" extension using WebWork=20 > (correct me if=20 > I'm wrong here). OS could provide many valuable parts to that=20 > goal (I know,=20 > I use WebWork and OS every day at work). OSCore, OSUser, OSWorkflow,=20 > Sitemesh, and OSCache all work very nicely with WebWork=20 > currently, but even=20 > better integration is possible. WebWork could gain a lot from working=20 > closely with OSUser, Sitemesh, and OSCache. Sounds to me=20 > though that the=20 > decision has already been made. >=20 > -Pat >=20 > >From: "Kjetil Paulsen" <kje...@mo...> > >To: <web...@li...> > >Subject: OS || JBOSS (WAS -> RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne=20 > get together) > >Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:22:21 +0200 > > > >Could somebody enlighten me on how much traffic there are at=20 > the OS site=20 > >and how many users you have at your mailinglists? After=20 > talking to people=20 > >at JavaOne and elsewhere, OpenSymphony isn't actually a=20 > well-known-name... > > > >I just have a hard time seeing what we would gain from a OS=20 > merger, I do=20 > >however see that OS needs WW from the list below ;) > > > >/kjetilhp > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Fran=E7ois Beauregard [mailto:fbe...@py...] > > > Sent: 4. april 2002 05:08 > > > To: web...@li... > > > Subject: RE: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together > > > > > > > > > > > I think it makes more sense technically to integrate=20 > OS and WW. > > > > Even if technically there is no integration to be made? Or > > > what would > > > > that imply, specifically? > > > I have not tought about all the technical possibilities but > > > here are some: > > > - Unified configuration file > > > - Management/Monitoring console > > > - Tag libraries > > > - I am sure there are ways to take advantage of OSCache in a > > > nice manner in > > > WW beside simply just using the tags > > > - I am sure we can also come up with ideas related to SiteMesh > > > - There is probably also oportunities with OSUser > > > - Some things in OSCore can probably be migrated into WW and > > > then keep very > > > general stuff in OSCore move other stuff out of OSCore=20 > into OSCoreEJB > > > - Other great ideas that would come out of community discussions > > > > > > Cheers, > > > ___________________________ > > > Fran=E7ois Beauregard, b.ing. > > > Vice-pr=E9sident > > > Recherche et d=E9veloppement > > > Pyxis Technologies > > > www.pyxis-tech.com > > > > > > T : (450) 681-9094, poste 102 > > > F : (450) 681-5758 > > > fbe...@py... > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Rickard [mailto:ri...@mi...] > > > Sent: April 3, 2002 4:18 PM > > > To: fbe...@py... > > > Cc: web...@li... > > > Subject: Re: [Webwork-devel] WW/JavaOne get together > > > > > > > > > Fran=E7ois Beauregard wrote: > > > > > > > I think it makes more sense technically to integrate OS and WW. > > > > > > > > > Even if technically there is no integration to be made?=20 > Or what would > > > that imply, specifically? > > > > > > > > > > The idea is to come up with value added components that can > > > be used in any > > > > J2EE environment (including JBoss). > > > > Mike explained in a previous post the reasoning behind the > > > Open Symphony > > > > name. > > > > Components developed in a truly open source and community > > > philosophy that > > > > work together as a Symphony. > > > > > > > > > Yes, that is very clear to me. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I vote to keep the already made decision of > > > slowly integrating > > > WW > > > > into OS by first : > > > > - Create a section for WW on OS's site > > > > - Issue a press release annoucing the collaboration, the > > > reasonning behind > > > > and the goals > > > > - Come up with ideas to enhance using OS components and=20 > WW together > > > (unified > > > > configuration file, management console, overlaps, ...). May > > > be create a > > > > subproject who would be responsible for this. > > > > - Components should always be usable on their own but be > > > easily integrated > > > > in a complete framework for J2EE. This promotes highly > > > modularized and > > > > customizable components. > > > > > > > > > But this has not much to do with the decision, but rather the > > > execution > > > of the decision if made in OS's favor. > > > > > > > > > > I also like Mike's idea of a showcase application using WW > > > that runs on > > > > JBoss and use it a promotion for JBoss, WW and OS. > > > > (Please don't start a discussion on joining the three) > > > > > > > > > Hehe... > > > > > > > > > > Bottom line : > > > > Integrating OS and WW make sense both technically and from > > > a promotion > > > point > > > > of view. > > > > Some combined promotion effort by JBoss and WW also makes sense. > > > > > > > > > Is the technical point about configuration? Or is there=20 > more to it? > > > > > > /Rickard > > > > > > -- > > > Rickard =D6berg > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Webwork-devel mailing list > > > Web...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Webwork-devel mailing list > >Web...@li... > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webwork-devel >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.=20 > http://www.hotmail.com >=20 |
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From: Rickard <ri...@mi...> - 2002-04-04 07:41:38
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Patrick Lightbody wrote: > OSCache and Sitemesh are both pretty widely recognized products=20 > (arcticles on JavaWorld have referenced them).=20 Not a single person at J1 knew about either (except Mike and he doesn't=20 count). And I mentioned it to a lot of (supposedly) knowledgeable people. > To me this OS vs JBoss=20 > sounds like it is coming down to a popularity contest more than "what=20 > makes sense"... I seriously hope that isn't the case. Well, it's a tradeoff between pro's and con's, and popularity is=20 certainly a factor. Don't be naive. Stuff like that counts. > OS > 285,035 page views This includes the online docs though, right? Not sure that "counts"=20 really.. anyway.. > Sounds to=20 > me though that the decision has already been made. If you have seen a post with "this is what we'll do", then the decision=20 has been made, otherwise not. /Rickard --=20 Rickard =D6berg |
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