From: Chris G. <ch...@il...> - 2004-04-13 00:11:42
|
Wow, it's really awesome to see excitement about Webware again. This is inspiring! :) One thing I'd like to help improve is the documentation -- specifically, the documentation that introduces people to Webware. There's a lot of great info on the website, the wiki, and in the source's pydoc strings, but it's hard to see the big picture at first because the amount of information is overwhelming. Being able to find what you're looking for is harder than it should be. I think it just needs a bit of the old top-down-hierarchical-organization-and-refactoring. :) When I was starting out, I found it kinda confusing that the "On-line Docs" were API references, and that most of the "Papers" covered a lot of the same thing, but with slight differences here and there (I think they're great as introductions, but they all be kneaded together into one really good document, placed on a page called "Turotial" :). It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it. I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME RIGHT NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!! Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people understand things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if more people realize how cool it is. |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-15 13:25:06
|
A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres too much at once going on. none really have the simple "just decend from page and self.writeln() your output. self.request() has the form type enviro. Took me a while to figure it out. But maybe a simple "heres how to do hello world" and next step "lets make a form" etc etc thru the complexities will do the trick. -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Chris Gahan wrote: > Wow, it's really awesome to see excitement about Webware again. This is > inspiring! :) > > One thing I'd like to help improve is the documentation -- specifically, > the documentation that introduces people to Webware. > > There's a lot of great info on the website, the wiki, and in the source's > pydoc strings, but it's hard to see the big picture at first because the > amount of information is overwhelming. Being able to find what you're > looking for is harder than it should be. I think it just needs a bit of > the old top-down-hierarchical-organization-and-refactoring. :) > > When I was starting out, I found it kinda confusing that the "On-line > Docs" were API references, and that most of the "Papers" covered a lot of > the same thing, but with slight differences here and there (I think > they're great as introductions, but they all be kneaded together into one > really good document, placed on a page called "Turotial" :). > > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it. > > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME RIGHT > NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!! > > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people understand > things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if more > people realize how cool it is. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > |
From: Chris G. <ch...@il...> - 2004-04-15 13:27:34
|
Definitely. I think there needs to be more simple learn-by-example programs to show why the webware way makes your life EASIER. :) > -----Original Message----- > A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres > too much at once going on. > > none really have the simple "just decend from page and > self.writeln() your output. self.request() has the form type > enviro. Took me a while to figure it out. > > But maybe a simple "heres how to do hello world" and next > step "lets make a form" etc etc thru the complexities will do > the trick. > > > -- > Shayne O'Neill > http://perth.indymedia.org > I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." > ----George W. Bush > > On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Chris Gahan wrote: > > > Wow, it's really awesome to see excitement about Webware > again. This > > is inspiring! :) > > > > One thing I'd like to help improve is the documentation -- > > specifically, the documentation that introduces people to Webware. > > > > There's a lot of great info on the website, the wiki, and in the > > source's pydoc strings, but it's hard to see the big > picture at first > > because the amount of information is overwhelming. Being > able to find > > what you're looking for is harder than it should be. I > think it just > > needs a bit of the old > > top-down-hierarchical-organization-and-refactoring. :) > > > > When I was starting out, I found it kinda confusing that > the "On-line > > Docs" were API references, and that most of the "Papers" > covered a lot > > of the same thing, but with slight differences here and > there (I think > > they're great as introductions, but they all be kneaded > together into > > one really good document, placed on a page called "Turotial" :). > > > > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be > confusing since > > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you > understand it. > > > > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME > > RIGHT NOW(tm). Damn you, > world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!! > > > > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people > > understand things and simplifying? The Webware community > will become > > kickass if more people realize how cool it is. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials Free Linux > > tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of GenToo > > technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > > > administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > > _______________________________________________ > > Webware-discuss mailing list > > Web...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > > > |
From: deelan <de...@in...> - 2004-04-15 15:47:42
|
Shayne ONeill wrote: > A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres too much at > once going on. > > none really have the simple "just decend from page and self.writeln() > your output. self.request() has the form type enviro. Took me a while to > figure it out. and don't forget little gotchas like: name your .py file like the servlet class name, and remember that "Index.py" is different from "index.py"! this annoys me a lot, a recent PEP 8 update suggests that module names should be written in lowercase letters, (no underscores) while classes should be named following CapWords convention. not to mention methodName instead method_name. bye. |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-15 17:25:24
|
The method name/class name thing I suspect was at the root of my mysteriously apearing and disapearing modules problem I had a module, render.py with a class called render: When I changed the module name to 'renderer', all the problems went away. Yet this *does* seem to conflict with the norms of webware coding I think. Perhaps webware is picking it up as a servlet (rather than a base class of other objects) and doing something.. .er.. magical?! namespace whackyness. -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, deelan wrote: > Shayne ONeill wrote: > > > A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres too much at > > once going on. > > > > none really have the simple "just decend from page and self.writeln() > > your output. self.request() has the form type enviro. Took me a while to > > figure it out. > and don't forget little gotchas like: name your .py file like > the servlet class name, and remember that "Index.py" is different > from "index.py"! this annoys me a lot, a recent PEP 8 update > suggests that module names should be written in lowercase letters, > (no underscores) while classes should be named following CapWords > convention. > > not to mention methodName instead method_name. > > bye. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > |
From: Tracy S. R. <tr...@re...> - 2004-04-15 14:28:19
|
I'm excited, too! I've been a Webware user for almost 2+ years, and I, too, and BURIED WITH WORK(tm). It's great to see all the activity, and I would love to help create some simple examples/tutorials. I'm a big lover of diagrams and think about things visually all the time. I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things work within Webware. In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML). Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming tools? And, what has anyone wished they could see visually? I'm thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a good place to start. --Tracy On Apr 12, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Chris Gahan wrote: > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it. > > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME > RIGHT > NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!! > > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people > understand > things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if > more > people realize how cool it is. |
From: Chris G. <ch...@il...> - 2004-04-15 14:49:17
|
> I'm excited, too! I've been a Webware user for almost 2+ > years, and I, too, and BURIED WITH WORK(tm). It's great to > see all the activity, and I would love to help create some > simple examples/tutorials. I'm a big lover of diagrams and > think about things visually all the time. Sweet, another visual thinker! Too few in the Computer Science world. Everyone's so damn analytical. > I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of > how things work within Webware. In the open-source world, I > only know of ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a > tool that we can use (or the community edition of Poseidon, > the free/commercial version of ArgoUML). Poseidon is, in my opinion, a bloated sack of crap. ArgoUML is much cleaner and simpler, and crashes less. I think we should go for that. Since we're not writing anything in Java or generating source code, or managing a large project, the Poseidon features won't be of much help. > Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source > diagramming tools? And, what has anyone wished they could > see visually? I'm thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy > of a transaction" would be a good place to start. I think it would be cool if people understood how the Appserver itself worked, because if you don't understand how the Appserver works, at least generally, you're not going to get far with Webware. :) The idea of the pools-of-cached-servlets, plugins, Configurable classes, the global environment, etc., would be nice to capture somehow. Dunno how you'd make it easy to visualize though. Maybe an animated diagram with a request coming in and moving through the pipeline! :D |
From: Shayne O. <sh...@pe...> - 2004-04-15 17:17:02
|
boa-constructor (the vb/delphi like python enviro) generates uml. It'd be nice to develop a plug in for webware for it. looks like a complex subject tho. -- Shayne O'Neill http://perth.indymedia.org I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family." ----George W. Bush On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, Tracy S. Ruggles wrote: > I'm excited, too! I've been a Webware user for almost 2+ years, and I, > too, and BURIED WITH WORK(tm). It's great to see all the activity, and > I would love to help create some simple examples/tutorials. I'm a big > lover of diagrams and think about things visually all the time. > > I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things > work within Webware. In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML > (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the > community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML). > > Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming > tools? And, what has anyone wished they could see visually? I'm > thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a > good place to start. > > --Tracy > > On Apr 12, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Chris Gahan wrote: > > > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since > > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it. > > > > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME > > RIGHT > > NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!! > > > > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people > > understand > > things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if > > more > > people realize how cool it is. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss > |
From: Nick M. <ni...@go...> - 2004-04-15 14:37:23
|
Tracy S. Ruggles wrote: > I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things > work within Webware. In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML > (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the > community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML). > > Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming > tools? And, what has anyone wished they could see visually? I'm > thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a > good place to start. Umbrello is a UML modeller for KDE: http://uml.sourceforge.net/index.php |
From: Scott R. <sc...@to...> - 2004-04-15 15:08:18
|
Unmrello is a great modeller, and saves in the XMI format natively, which would be a big plus. Unfortunately, it's XMI is apparently unreadable by every other tool that reads XMI. :( It's still a very sharp modeller. On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 10:39, Nick Murtagh wrote: > Tracy S. Ruggles wrote: > > I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things > > work within Webware. In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML > > (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the > > community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML). > > > > Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming > > tools? And, what has anyone wished they could see visually? I'm > > thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a > > good place to start. > > Umbrello is a UML modeller for KDE: > > http://uml.sourceforge.net/index.php > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials > Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of > GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system > administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click > _______________________________________________ > Webware-discuss mailing list > Web...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss |
From: Ian B. <ia...@co...> - 2004-04-15 19:16:27
|
Chris Gahan wrote: > Wow, it's really awesome to see excitement about Webware again. This is > inspiring! :) > > One thing I'd like to help improve is the documentation -- specifically, > the documentation that introduces people to Webware. > > There's a lot of great info on the website, the wiki, and in the source's > pydoc strings, but it's hard to see the big picture at first because the > amount of information is overwhelming. Being able to find what you're > looking for is harder than it should be. I think it just needs a bit of > the old top-down-hierarchical-organization-and-refactoring. :) > > When I was starting out, I found it kinda confusing that the "On-line > Docs" were API references, and that most of the "Papers" covered a lot of > the same thing, but with slight differences here and there (I think > they're great as introductions, but they all be kneaded together into one > really good document, placed on a page called "Turotial" :). > > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it. > > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME RIGHT > NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!! > > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people understand > things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if more > people realize how cool it is. Definitely better documentation is always good -- there's always more to be done. If we put this stuff in the Wiki, people can improve the documentation with whatever pace they can manage -- the only problem might be reorganization, which (outside of reorganizing a single document) would probably be a bit of a pain in the Wiki. I'm planning on adding a comment feature to the wiki, which is basically a bottom-post with signature, which might encourage feedback on documentation; comments can serve as good source material for later reorganizations. Other ideas about the documentation are also welcome. Certainly we can open up space in Subversion for people to collaborate as well, if that seems like a better environment. (And *maybe* we could put the Wiki into Subversion... that would be clever; maybe not that hard) Ian |