visualswing-developers

[Visualswing-developers] RE: Features list

[Scott C. <sc...@mi...>]

> Features:
> Gui view
> Code view
> Generate .java code
> Generate .class files
> Persistent data saved as xml
> Ability to set properites
> Abstracts adding event listeners

I remember Senthil describing using introspection on the GUI components
that we allow the user to use.  Although I was wondering if we might
also consider possibly an XML definition of elements (ala XUL) so that a
user might develop (for example) custom panels that could be added to
the palette of choices. (This also assumes that can store user creations
in an XML format that we can read in.  + 1 for "Persistent data saved as
xml")

> Options to be considered later:
> User selected layout type
I'd like to know if a use case for the project is to allow the user to
create something as complex as the UI that we develop for this project?
If so, I think layouts are a requirement.

> The basic appearance should be a mix of Visual Studio and Forte.
For us non Visual Studio, types does anyone have screen shots of it to
help with a feel for that product?  Is that where the click-and-drag
placement of elements comes from?  The only problem that I have with
that is that absolutely positioned and absolutely sized elements in
Swing tend to not resize well when the user changes his/her window size.
(Please note: I'm coming from a Swing-centric UI background.)

[Visualswing-developers] New proposal to feature list

[Timo H. <tim...@ko...>]

Hi all,

I joined a few weeks ago to this project. I am from Windows environment and not so
familiar to open source development (escpecially not familiar in co-operation that is needed in
open source development) but want to learn.

I have another project to which I was planning to develop same kind of GUI development tools. 
However, I joined this project because wanted to help with visual swing project and learn more 
how to build GUI editors. There was also idea that perhaps we can share some code between 
projects.

However, when thinking more, I was wondering might it be possible to use visual swing like 
"plugin" in another software. So, there should not be necessary need to build another GUI builder.

To be honest, for my personally it would be nice if visual swing can be
implemented as "Java Bean" or so that it can be added  e.g. to JPanel (I
mean that visual swing is e.g. derived from JComponent and can be added e.g.
to the JPanel). It should be also possible to "start" visual swing from the main-method like
any other normal stand-alone java application as planned earlier.

What do you thing about this kind of idea?

It would be great if visual swing can be integrated to another softwares, but if this idea is 
not ok for others, it is great for me to help with visual swing project and learn more with it.

I have also some comments to Scott's mail:

        Although I was wondering if we might also consider possibly an XML
        definition of elements (ala XUL) so that a user might develop (for example)
        custom panels that could be added to the palette of choices.
        (This also assumes that can store user creations in an XML format that we can read in.
         + 1 for "Persistent data saved as xml")

This sounds good. I think it would be nice to add also possibility to add "any" elements to the
palette of choices. So that user can develop any kind of complex componets (including nested
panels/components) e.g. also using another development tools and add those to the palette of choices. 

        I'd like to know if a use case for the project is to allow the user to
        create something as complex as the UI that we develop for this project?
        If so, I think layouts are a requirement.

My opinion is that layouts are required and it should be possible to develop a quite complex UIs with visual swing.

        The only problem that I have with
        that is that absolutely positioned and absolutely sized elements in
        Swing tend to not resize well when the user changes his/her window size.
        (Please note: I'm coming from a Swing-centric UI background.)

I agree. I was wondering is it possible to use e.g. new SpringLayout but I haven't found much examples about this
layout from the web. Some times ago I was thinking might it be possible to predefine (=draw by development tool=>by visualswing) 
"forms" which are like panels with own layout and predefined places for components. User might then be able 
to drag and drop components from the palette to the predefined places on the form and components will be automatically
resized on the correct places. User should be possible to create new forms and define rules between "places" of components
so that when resized, the forms and components in it are resized based on those rules. (like in SpringLayout).

But, probably this is too far compared to the original ideas. 

Thanks, 
Timo

RE: [Visualswing-developers] New proposal to feature list

[Scott C. <sc...@mi...>]

Timo said -


> I was wondering might it be possible to use visual swing like 
> "plugin" in another software. So, there should not be necessary need
to 
> build another GUI builder.

> To be honest, for my personally it would be nice if visual swing can
be
> implemented as "Java Bean" or so that it can be added  e.g. to JPanel
(I
> mean that visual swing is e.g. derived from JComponent and can be
added   > e.g. to the JPanel). It should be also possible to "start"
visual swing 
> from the main-method like any other normal stand-alone java
application as > planned earlier.

Other than IDE plugin, what other sort of application would you imagine
VisualSwing be embedded into?

I think the possibility of making visual swing into an IDE plugin is not
a bad idea (and has been mentioned by several others in earlier
postings); it would keep us from having to author a text editor for
example, if we were a plugin to something that already contained a text
editor.  But that means that we must tie ourselves to the development of
that other product.  If we do decide to become a plugin, I think we
should stick to Eclipse, JEdit, etc. - namely something open source with
a fairly stable API.

Timo said [regarding layouts...]

> But, probably this is too far compared to the original ideas. 

Do the original designers of this project have an opinion on supporting
layout managers in the project?  Because I agree with Timo, I think
including layouts is critical to any GUI design tool for Java.  I also
think that most developers familiar with Swing would find the project
lacking if it didn't support them (even if it wasn't the default
behavior).

Now that we have a list of possible features, can we come to any
agreement on what should go in a first release for the project - so that
some more thought might be put into design?

Scott Corley

RE: [Visualswing-developers] New proposal to feature list

[todd r. <tod...@ya...>]

--- Scott Corley <sc...@mi...> wrote:
> 
> Timo said -
> 
> 
> > I was wondering might it be possible to use visual
> swing like 
> > "plugin" in another software. So, there should not
> be necessary need
> to 
> > build another GUI builder.
> 
> > To be honest, for my personally it would be nice
> if visual swing can
> be
> > implemented as "Java Bean" or so that it can be
> added  e.g. to JPanel
> (I
> > mean that visual swing is e.g. derived from
> JComponent and can be
> added   > e.g. to the JPanel). It should be also
> possible to "start"
> visual swing 
> > from the main-method like any other normal
> stand-alone java
> application as > planned earlier.
> 
> Other than IDE plugin, what other sort of
> application would you imagine
> VisualSwing be embedded into?
> 
> I think the possibility of making visual swing into
> an IDE plugin is not
> a bad idea (and has been mentioned by several others
> in earlier
> postings); it would keep us from having to author a
> text editor for
> example, if we were a plugin to something that
> already contained a text
> editor.  But that means that we must tie ourselves
> to the development of
> that other product.  If we do decide to become a
> plugin, I think we
> should stick to Eclipse, JEdit, etc. - namely
> something open source with
> a fairly stable API.

Personally, I'd like to see a standalone IDE, at least
initially.  As I've mentioned before though, I love
Eclipse and fully support building VS as a plugin.  I
agree that limiting the scope would be wise as trying
to make this work for every editor out there will be
impossible.  

If an Eclipse plugin or standalone IDE won't work for
you Timo, try to keep reminding the team to keep
things modular.  That way, you should be able to pull
out major portions to integrate into your other
project. 


> 
> Timo said [regarding layouts...]
> 
> > But, probably this is too far compared to the
> original ideas. 
> 
> Do the original designers of this project have an
> opinion on supporting
> layout managers in the project?  

To be honest, I don't think it matters.  If anyone
feels strongly one way or the other, let them make a
case for it.  Many of us joined this project because
we wanted to create a free, open source java IDE, but
knew we couldn't make it by ourselves.  With that in
mind, whatever the group as a whole decides, is what
will be supported. 

> Because I agree
> with Timo, I think
> including layouts is critical to any GUI design tool
> for Java.  I also
> think that most developers familiar with Swing would
> find the project
> lacking if it didn't support them (even if it wasn't
> the default
> behavior).


Seems to me the group has spoken - support for layout
managers is in. 

> 
> Now that we have a list of possible features, can we
> come to any
> agreement on what should go in a first release for
> the project - so that
> some more thought might be put into design?

Scott, are you willing to write something up?  Maybe
something we can post?

> 
> Scott Corley
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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[Visualswing-developers] Re: New proposal to feature list

[Timo H. <tim...@ko...>]

Scott wrote:

> >
> > Other than IDE plugin, what other sort of
> > application would you imagine
> > VisualSwing be embedded into?
> >

I have another (not so active) project in SF:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/pronetha

It is like integrated IDE and platform to run application programs over
the network. Client part is coded by Java and server side by C++.

I have planned to add there possibility to build GUIs graphically for
the application programs (and have done already some prototypes) but
designing and coding of this kind of functionality is not piece of cake.

>
> If an Eclipse plugin or standalone IDE won't work for
> you Timo, try to keep reminding the team to keep
> things modular.  That way, you should be able to pull
> out major portions to integrate into your other
> project.
>

Yes, I think you are right. It may be possible that my project needs
some features which are not necessary or even reasonable to add to
visual swing. But if it is needed and ok to others, I can do both
develop visual swing and maintain modified version that is integrated to
my own project. What do you think is this ok for you?

- Timo

P.S. Yes, I am going to change the look of my projects's home page. It
probably looks very messy in some browsers and has too much necessary
items :-)