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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2011-11-28 15:55:10
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I too have seen the following problem on the latest Ubuntu but thought it must be a driver problem, and I haven't had the time to look more deeply. The bug report mentioned here implies that the problem is with visual. Has someone on this list successfully run python-visual on the latest version of Ubuntu? If so, what did you have to do? Thanks. Bruce Sherwood ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tuomas Airaksinen <tuo...@jy...> Date: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:27 AM Subject: Python-visual in ubuntu etc. Hi, Just a short question: Are you aware of any way to get python-visual work in Ubuntu Linux environment. I am using 64 bit Ubuntu 11.10, but I tried with virtual machine (virtualbox) 32 bit 11.10 and 10.04 versions, and none of them were working. There are bug reports out there https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-visual/+bug/787932 but no fix/workaround seem to be around. I used to find this module very useful but now it just segfaults after any command like sphere(). -- Tuomas Airaksinen Post-doctoral researcher GSM (work) +358 40 805 3247 Office: Agora AgC 423.3 University of Jyväskylä |
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From: Andrew M. <agm...@gm...> - 2011-11-28 16:08:15
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Hi All, I'm been running vpython in Ubuntu 11.04 and then Ubuntu 11.10. I did not encounter any problems with the transition. There is a caveat though: when I installed CUDA on my system and updated my NVIDIA drivers, vpython simply stopped working. I simply could not stop it from segfaulting when any vpython object was declared. The only solution was to entirely reformat and reinstall Ubuntu and not install CUDA. My guess is that something evil is happening with the gpu drivers for the 64 bit version. Try some older drivers perhaps? Andy On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bru...@nc...>wrote: > I too have seen the following problem on the latest Ubuntu but thought > it must be a driver problem, and I haven't had the time to look more > deeply. The bug report mentioned here implies that the problem is with > visual. Has someone on this list successfully run python-visual on the > latest version of Ubuntu? If so, what did you have to do? Thanks. > > Bruce Sherwood > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Tuomas Airaksinen <tuo...@jy...> > Date: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:27 AM > Subject: Python-visual in ubuntu etc. > > Hi, > > Just a short question: Are you aware of any way to get python-visual > work in Ubuntu > Linux environment. I am using 64 bit Ubuntu 11.10, but I tried with > virtual machine (virtualbox) 32 bit > 11.10 and 10.04 versions, and none of them were working. > > There are bug reports out there > > https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-visual/+bug/787932 > > but no fix/workaround seem to be around. > > I used to find this module very useful but now it just segfaults after > any command like > sphere(). > > -- > Tuomas Airaksinen > Post-doctoral researcher > GSM (work) +358 40 805 3247 > Office: Agora AgC 423.3 > University of Jyväskylä > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure > contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, > security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this > data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users > -- Sincerely, Andrew McCormick |
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From: John Z. <joh...@wa...> - 2011-11-28 17:13:39
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I don't have a solution, but I can confirm 3 different systems (all I've tried) with Ubuntu 11.10 having a broken python-visual module. These are 32-bit systems with a variety of video cards (Intel and NVIDIA), so I don't think 64/32-bit or video drivers is the issues. Two of the systems report the seg fault error; the other reports glib-mm Error about not being able to load glCreateProgramObjectARB. All three of these systems got to 11.10 via upgrade. I do not have any data points for what happens with a clean install. The apparent brittleness of Vpython on Linux is troublesome. --John John Zelle, PhD Professor of Computer Science Wartburg College ________________________________ From: Andrew McCormick [agm...@gm...] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:08 AM To: Bru...@nc... Cc: Tuomas Airaksinen; vpusers Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python-visual in latest Ubuntu Hi All, I'm been running vpython in Ubuntu 11.04 and then Ubuntu 11.10. I did not encounter any problems with the transition. There is a caveat though: when I installed CUDA on my system and updated my NVIDIA drivers, vpython simply stopped working. I simply could not stop it from segfaulting when any vpython object was declared. The only solution was to entirely reformat and reinstall Ubuntu and not install CUDA. My guess is that something evil is happening with the gpu drivers for the 64 bit version. Try some older drivers perhaps? Andy On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Bruce Sherwood <Bru...@nc...<mailto:Bru...@nc...>> wrote: I too have seen the following problem on the latest Ubuntu but thought it must be a driver problem, and I haven't had the time to look more deeply. The bug report mentioned here implies that the problem is with visual. Has someone on this list successfully run python-visual on the latest version of Ubuntu? If so, what did you have to do? Thanks. Bruce Sherwood ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Tuomas Airaksinen <tuo...@jy...<mailto:tuo...@jy...>> Date: Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:27 AM Subject: Python-visual in ubuntu etc. Hi, Just a short question: Are you aware of any way to get python-visual work in Ubuntu Linux environment. I am using 64 bit Ubuntu 11.10, but I tried with virtual machine (virtualbox) 32 bit 11.10 and 10.04 versions, and none of them were working. There are bug reports out there https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python-visual/+bug/787932 but no fix/workaround seem to be around. I used to find this module very useful but now it just segfaults after any command like sphere(). -- Tuomas Airaksinen Post-doctoral researcher GSM (work) +358 40 805 3247<tel:%2B358%2040%20805%203247> Office: Agora AgC 423.3 University of Jyväskylä ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d _______________________________________________ Visualpython-users mailing list Vis...@li...<mailto:Vis...@li...> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users -- Sincerely, Andrew McCormick |
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From: Kevin K. <ka...@so...> - 2011-11-28 18:23:50
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I have, sadly, had to remove 32-bit Python from my machine, thus breaking Vpython. I had another package that I had to use for my research that only was too difficult to reconfigure to compile to 32-bit Python on a 64-bit machine. So I needed 64-bit Python to do my work. So I've had to give up on Vpython for my own use (though my son will still use it on the household computer, which does not need to run research code and can tolerate using 32-bit Python). I suppose, that with considerable effort I could dig up an old version of Python that could be compiled for a 32-bit machine, but the hassle involved is too large. Having both a 32-bit and 64-bit version of Python 2.7.2 on the same Mac seems to be very difficult to set up, as the Mac method for having multiple versions of python seems to rely on the version number to keep the directories straight. Unless the 32-bit kluge is fixed within the next year, Vpython will become just another good idea that disappeared because it was tied to obsolete technology. I suspect that Vpython will almost disappear within 3-5 years if it remains tied to legacy computers. Kevin Karplus |
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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2011-11-28 22:02:58
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The implication is that your problem is on the Mac, not Ubuntu. The problem on the Mac is significantly more worrisome than the Ubuntu problem, because the platform-specific machinery for creating a window and handling events is currently implemented in Carbon, for which 64-bit support was dropped. It was not found possible to implement this in Cocoa, due to thread priority issues. On the other hand, if you don't require the standard Mac look and feel but are comfortable with the X11 window manager, you can run VPython with 64-bit Python on a Mac: http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.visualpython.user/3245 Bruce Sherwood On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Kevin Karplus <ka...@so...> wrote: > > I have, sadly, had to remove 32-bit Python from my machine, thus > breaking Vpython. I had another package that I had to use for my > research that only was too difficult to reconfigure to compile to > 32-bit Python on a 64-bit machine. So I needed 64-bit Python to do my > work. > > So I've had to give up on Vpython for my own use (though my son will > still use it on the household computer, which does not need to run > research code and can tolerate using 32-bit Python). I suppose, that > with considerable effort I could dig up an old version of Python that > could be compiled for a 32-bit machine, but the hassle involved is too > large. Having both a 32-bit and 64-bit version of Python 2.7.2 on the > same Mac seems to be very difficult to set up, as the Mac method for > having multiple versions of python seems to rely on the version number > to keep the directories straight. > > Unless the 32-bit kluge is fixed within the next year, Vpython will > become just another good idea that disappeared because it was tied to > obsolete technology. I suspect that Vpython will almost disappear > within 3-5 years if it remains tied to legacy computers. > > Kevin Karplus > |
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From: John Z. <joh...@wa...> - 2011-11-28 19:11:11
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Hi again, I've gotten my python-visual on Intel video working under Ubuntu 11.10. Installing the libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev package fixed the GL error I was getting. I had to go to the site_settings.py library file and turn the shaders off. It seems to be working now without issues. It now appears to me that the seg fault issue is specific to NVIDIA graphics, which raises the possibility that it is a driver issue for NVIDIA cards. John Zelle, PhD Professor of Computer Science Wartburg College ________________________________________ From: Kevin Karplus [ka...@so...] Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:04 PM To: Bru...@nc... Cc: vis...@li... Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python-visual in latest Ubuntu I have, sadly, had to remove 32-bit Python from my machine, thus breaking Vpython. I had another package that I had to use for my research that only was too difficult to reconfigure to compile to 32-bit Python on a 64-bit machine. So I needed 64-bit Python to do my work. So I've had to give up on Vpython for my own use (though my son will still use it on the household computer, which does not need to run research code and can tolerate using 32-bit Python). I suppose, that with considerable effort I could dig up an old version of Python that could be compiled for a 32-bit machine, but the hassle involved is too large. Having both a 32-bit and 64-bit version of Python 2.7.2 on the same Mac seems to be very difficult to set up, as the Mac method for having multiple versions of python seems to rely on the version number to keep the directories straight. Unless the 32-bit kluge is fixed within the next year, Vpython will become just another good idea that disappeared because it was tied to obsolete technology. I suspect that Vpython will almost disappear within 3-5 years if it remains tied to legacy computers. Kevin Karplus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d _______________________________________________ Visualpython-users mailing list Vis...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users |
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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2011-11-28 22:40:59
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I verified that I have libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev installed (that's one of the standard dependencies for Visual) , and I turned off shaders in site_settings.py, but I still crash. I have an NVIDIA card, so apparently the key point as you say is that you were running with Intel graphics, which again implies a problem with the NVIDIA graphics driver. However, for all I know at the moment there may be something that needs to be updated in the Visual code. Bruce Sherwood On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM, John Zelle <joh...@wa...> wrote: > Hi again, > > I've gotten my python-visual on Intel video working under Ubuntu 11.10. Installing the libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev package fixed the GL error I was getting. I had to go to the site_settings.py library file and turn the shaders off. It seems to be working now without issues. > > It now appears to me that the seg fault issue is specific to NVIDIA graphics, which raises the possibility that it is a driver issue for NVIDIA cards. > > John Zelle, PhD > Professor of Computer Science > Wartburg College > > > ________________________________________ > From: Kevin Karplus [ka...@so...] > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:04 PM > To: Bru...@nc... > Cc: vis...@li... > Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python-visual in latest Ubuntu > > I have, sadly, had to remove 32-bit Python from my machine, thus > breaking Vpython. I had another package that I had to use for my > research that only was too difficult to reconfigure to compile to > 32-bit Python on a 64-bit machine. So I needed 64-bit Python to do my > work. > > So I've had to give up on Vpython for my own use (though my son will > still use it on the household computer, which does not need to run > research code and can tolerate using 32-bit Python). I suppose, that > with considerable effort I could dig up an old version of Python that > could be compiled for a 32-bit machine, but the hassle involved is too > large. Having both a 32-bit and 64-bit version of Python 2.7.2 on the > same Mac seems to be very difficult to set up, as the Mac method for > having multiple versions of python seems to rely on the version number > to keep the directories straight. > > Unless the 32-bit kluge is fixed within the next year, Vpython will > become just another good idea that disappeared because it was tied to > obsolete technology. I suspect that Vpython will almost disappear > within 3-5 years if it remains tied to legacy computers. > > Kevin Karplus > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure > contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, > security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this > data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure > contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, > security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this > data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users > |
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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2011-11-28 22:04:59
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Thanks much for this very useful information, John. It certainly does seem like a driver problem, though I suppose it is possible that Visual contains some inappropriate use of OpenGL that shows up only with new drivers. Bruce Sherwood On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM, John Zelle <joh...@wa...> wrote: > Hi again, > > I've gotten my python-visual on Intel video working under Ubuntu 11.10. Installing the libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev package fixed the GL error I was getting. I had to go to the site_settings.py library file and turn the shaders off. It seems to be working now without issues. > > It now appears to me that the seg fault issue is specific to NVIDIA graphics, which raises the possibility that it is a driver issue for NVIDIA cards. > > John Zelle, PhD > Professor of Computer Science > Wartburg College > > > ________________________________________ > From: Kevin Karplus [ka...@so...] > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:04 PM > To: Bru...@nc... > Cc: vis...@li... > Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python-visual in latest Ubuntu > > I have, sadly, had to remove 32-bit Python from my machine, thus > breaking Vpython. I had another package that I had to use for my > research that only was too difficult to reconfigure to compile to > 32-bit Python on a 64-bit machine. So I needed 64-bit Python to do my > work. > > So I've had to give up on Vpython for my own use (though my son will > still use it on the household computer, which does not need to run > research code and can tolerate using 32-bit Python). I suppose, that > with considerable effort I could dig up an old version of Python that > could be compiled for a 32-bit machine, but the hassle involved is too > large. Having both a 32-bit and 64-bit version of Python 2.7.2 on the > same Mac seems to be very difficult to set up, as the Mac method for > having multiple versions of python seems to rely on the version number > to keep the directories straight. > > Unless the 32-bit kluge is fixed within the next year, Vpython will > become just another good idea that disappeared because it was tied to > obsolete technology. I suspect that Vpython will almost disappear > within 3-5 years if it remains tied to legacy computers. > > Kevin Karplus > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure > contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, > security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this > data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure > contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, > security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this > data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users > |
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From: Seth M. <sm...@ps...> - 2011-11-28 23:00:39
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I am running Fedora, not Ubuntu, but I experience similar problems. When I use the nVidia drivers that come from RPMFusion, I get a segfault whenever I try to display an scene with VPython (just as I have seen described as with the latest Ubuntu). I have been experiencing this issue since Fedora 11 (current release is 15); it now seems that its made it's way over to Ubuntu. I have found that installing the driver that is downloaded directly from nVidia's web site gets rid of this issue. It seems that some of the black magic happening in the RPM (and I am assuming the .deb for Ubuntu) affects things that the binary from nVidia does not. The drawback then is that when I use nVidia's driver and then update the kernel, X windows crashes (not a VPython issue, but worthy of note). One also has to manually disable the nouveau driver that comes with Fedora. Seth On 11/28/2011 05:04 PM, Bruce Sherwood wrote: > Thanks much for this very useful information, John. > > It certainly does seem like a driver problem, though I suppose it is > possible that Visual contains some inappropriate use of OpenGL that > shows up only with new drivers. > > Bruce Sherwood > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 12:11 PM, John Zelle<joh...@wa...> wrote: >> Hi again, >> >> I've gotten my python-visual on Intel video working under Ubuntu 11.10. Installing the libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev package fixed the GL error I was getting. I had to go to the site_settings.py library file and turn the shaders off. It seems to be working now without issues. >> >> It now appears to me that the seg fault issue is specific to NVIDIA graphics, which raises the possibility that it is a driver issue for NVIDIA cards. >> >> John Zelle, PhD >> Professor of Computer Science >> Wartburg College >> >> >> ________________________________________ >> From: Kevin Karplus [ka...@so...] >> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:04 PM >> To: Bru...@nc... >> Cc: vis...@li... >> Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python-visual in latest Ubuntu >> >> I have, sadly, had to remove 32-bit Python from my machine, thus >> breaking Vpython. I had another package that I had to use for my >> research that only was too difficult to reconfigure to compile to >> 32-bit Python on a 64-bit machine. So I needed 64-bit Python to do my >> work. >> >> So I've had to give up on Vpython for my own use (though my son will >> still use it on the household computer, which does not need to run >> research code and can tolerate using 32-bit Python). I suppose, that >> with considerable effort I could dig up an old version of Python that >> could be compiled for a 32-bit machine, but the hassle involved is too >> large. Having both a 32-bit and 64-bit version of Python 2.7.2 on the >> same Mac seems to be very difficult to set up, as the Mac method for >> having multiple versions of python seems to rely on the version number >> to keep the directories straight. >> >> Unless the 32-bit kluge is fixed within the next year, Vpython will >> become just another good idea that disappeared because it was tied to >> obsolete technology. I suspect that Vpython will almost disappear >> within 3-5 years if it remains tied to legacy computers. >> >> Kevin Karplus >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure >> contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, >> security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this >> data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d >> _______________________________________________ >> Visualpython-users mailing list >> Vis...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure >> contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, >> security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this >> data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d >> _______________________________________________ >> Visualpython-users mailing list >> Vis...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > All the data continuously generated in your IT infrastructure > contains a definitive record of customers, application performance, > security threats, fraudulent activity, and more. Splunk takes this > data and makes sense of it. IT sense. And common sense. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-novd2d > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users |
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From: James T. <jt...@mi...> - 2011-12-06 17:26:50
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Another data point. I'm running LMDE (debian testing) 64-bit and I get the segfault error with the ATI proprietary driver. libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev was not installed but installing it made no difference. Playing around with site_settings.py made no difference. Purge-reinstall made no difference. Seems like this is a perpetual problem I keep running into every time I come back to visual after an extended break or on a new system. Now I'm regretting not making good on my intention 2 years ago to re-implement vPython in Python (like it should be) two years ago. I have a library and a lot of simulation code that is unusable because I can't get visual to run. My last hope is to bypass the repositories and hope that a newer version or building from sources will fix this. Otherwise I'm fairly well screwed. JT |
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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2011-12-06 17:51:00
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Thanks for the report. It's helpful to know that you see the problem with an ATI card, in addition to the reports concerning computers with NVIDIA cards. So that pretty much rules out the graphic driver being the problem. I've come to a pause in other high-priority work and will make a serious attempt at debugging this. I'll mention that when David Scherer first created VPython in the spring of 2000, he first tried implementing it in pure Python but had to give up because the performance was quite poor. However, maybe there are now better tools and platforms in the Python world, and if you can get this to work in a pure Python environment that would be great. A parallel is that the new GlowScript environment Scherer and I are developing (glowscript.org), with an API similar to VPython but which runs in a browser, is implemented in pure JavaScript, which is feasible because JavaScript is compiled rather than interpreted. Bruce Sherwood On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 9:59 AM, James Thomas <jt...@mi...> wrote: > Another data point. I'm running LMDE (debian testing) 64-bit and I get the > segfault error with the ATI proprietary driver. libgtkglextmm-x11-1.2-dev > was not installed but installing it made no difference. Playing around with > site_settings.py made no difference. Purge-reinstall made no difference. > > Seems like this is a perpetual problem I keep running into every time I come > back to visual after an extended break or on a new system. Now I'm > regretting not making good on my intention 2 years ago to re-implement > vPython in Python (like it should be) two years ago. I have a library and a > lot of simulation code that is unusable because I can't get visual to run. > > My last hope is to bypass the repositories and hope that a newer version or > building from sources will fix this. Otherwise I'm fairly well screwed. > > JT > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization > This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of > discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model > of a cloud services business. Read Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ > _______________________________________________ > Visualpython-users mailing list > Vis...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users > |
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From: Aaron M. <mav...@gm...> - 2011-12-06 20:19:13
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James/Bruce, If there is a serious attempt made at migrating Visual onto a pure Python graphics back-end, I'd definitely be interested in joining that project. The Python API for Visual is brilliant and the graphics are fast, but the nature of the current implementation imposes several limitations (notably, GTK+ event loop issues and some disconnects in display and object interaction) that might be easier to address -- and failing that, for users to monkey-patch their way around -- if it were pure Python. This is, of course, in addition to the aforementioned. On a related note, there seems to be much demand for a good native 3D geometry library in pure Python [1]. If the above were to happen, it might make sense to spin off a separate efficient geometry library at the same time (something in which I'd be even more interested in participating). [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1076778/good-geometry-library-in-python -- Aaron Mavrinac www.mavrinac.com |
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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2011-12-06 22:12:40
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If some people do get serious about redoing VPython, here's something to keep in mind. I believe that one of the reasons why very few people have made substantive contributions to VPython development is that it involves multithreaded C++ and must work on all platforms, all of which requires uncommon expertise (and some fearlessness). Compare with the GlowScript project (JavaScript + WebGL instead of Python + OpenGL; see glowscript.org). Basically, JavaScript doesn't have threads (ignore the special and strictly limited "worker" thread for purposes of this discussion). If you write an infinite loop in JavaScript, nothing can break into that loop, and your web page is hung forever. In VPython the render thread interrupts your Python calculations, and there are complex issues associated with having more than one thread. In GlowScript, this strategy is literally impossible to implement. Rather, your program MUST be organized into chunks that are called at times you specify. GlowScript uses the Streamline library to chop up your VPython-like program into such chunks; for example, a rate(50) statement in a loop causes GlowScript/Streamline to compile the loop contents into a separate routine that is driven 50 times a second. One of the timer-driven chunks is the render routine, which runs about 30 times a second, similar to VPython, but it's not a thread, it's just one of the many timer-driven short routines. One consequence is that in GlowScript, if you execute a lengthy piece of code to set up a complex 3D scene, you know that the scene will be completely defined and appear all at once when you execute that code and the render routine gets a chance to run (the render routine may have been delayed for much more than 1/30 second but will run immediately when other activity has ceased). In contrast, in VPython the render thread will break into your scene creation and display a partial, incomplete scene unless you make the scene invisible until you're finished with creating the scene. Even though the Python environment permits threading, it's worth considering a GlowScript-like strategy, simply to avoid the complexities of multithreading and thereby reduce the barriers to people making contributions to the core code. An important issue to bear in mind is that one would like the look and feel to be native on all platforms, but I repeat that there's a serious problem on the Mac, in that we didn't find a way to base VPython on Cocoa due to threading issues, and Carbon is deprecated and doesn't run with 64-bit programs. If the threading issues go away, maybe the Mac issue could also go away. Another thing to keep in mind is that in 2000 few people had graphics cards with powerful GPUs, whereas a new "VPython" presumably should require such cards and be built from the start to exploit them. I agree with Aaron that the most important feature of VPython is its API, not the particular implementation. If some of you see a better way to implement that API, go for it! And if you do go for it, do pay attention to GlowScript development, whose API is very similar to but not identical to VPython, and I think the (relatively minor) changes are good ones. I would be very willing to help anyone interested in rebuilding VPython by providing explanations of the existing code, though I confess that there are some aspects that I don't fully understand. On the other hand, the current code may be mostly irrelevant; it's the API that defines what needs to be done. Bruce Sherwood On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 1:19 PM, Aaron Mavrinac <mav...@gm...> wrote: > James/Bruce, > > If there is a serious attempt made at migrating Visual onto a pure > Python graphics back-end, I'd definitely be interested in joining that > project. The Python API for Visual is brilliant and the graphics are > fast, but the nature of the current implementation imposes several > limitations (notably, GTK+ event loop issues and some disconnects in > display and object interaction) that might be easier to address -- and > failing that, for users to monkey-patch their way around -- if it were > pure Python. This is, of course, in addition to the aforementioned. > > On a related note, there seems to be much demand for a good native 3D > geometry library in pure Python [1]. If the above were to happen, it > might make sense to spin off a separate efficient geometry library at > the same time (something in which I'd be even more interested in > participating). > > [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1076778/good-geometry-library-in-python > > -- > Aaron Mavrinac > www.mavrinac.com |
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From: marco b. <mar...@un...> - 2011-12-08 09:35:04
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James and Bruce, our group is using VP in a variety of applications and we are involved in writing 3D numerical solutions of heat and fluid transport in porous media. We started using VP as our visualization systems of choice for both structured and unstructured grids. We would be very interested in VP as Python graphics back-end. We found many valuable features of VP. Marco -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Aaron Mavrinac [mailto:mav...@gm...] Inviato: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:19 PM A: vis...@li... Oggetto: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python-visual in latest Ubuntu James/Bruce, If there is a serious attempt made at migrating Visual onto a pure Python graphics back-end, I'd definitely be interested in joining that project. The Python API for Visual is brilliant and the graphics are fast, but the nature of the current implementation imposes several limitations (notably, GTK+ event loop issues and some disconnects in display and object interaction) that might be easier to address -- and failing that, for users to monkey-patch their way around -- if it were pure Python. This is, of course, in addition to the aforementioned. On a related note, there seems to be much demand for a good native 3D geometry library in pure Python [1]. If the above were to happen, it might make sense to spin off a separate efficient geometry library at the same time (something in which I'd be even more interested in participating). [1] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1076778/good-geometry-library-in-python -- Aaron Mavrinac www.mavrinac.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Cloud Services Checklist: Pricing and Packaging Optimization This white paper is intended to serve as a reference, checklist and point of discussion for anyone considering optimizing the pricing and packaging model of a cloud services business. Read Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51491232/ _______________________________________________ Visualpython-users mailing list Vis...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users |
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