visualpython-users

Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Hugh F. <hug...@an...>]

> From: Bruce Sherwood <bas...@nc...>
> 
> If you have the necessary expertise to contribute to finding a way to
> base VPython on Cocoa, please let me know!

Redesigning Visual Python around a Qt core would give cross-platform 
with native look and feel for Macintosh and MS Windows. AFAIK Trolltech 
have rewritten a good chunk of Qt to run on Cocoa for the same reason of 
the transition to 64 bit.

It wouldn't be as smooth for Linux (although Qt apps run perfectly well 
under GNOME) but I don't believe native look & feel and tight desktop 
integration is quite so important on Linux.

Using Qt is banned by the current iPhone/iPad SDK license agreement, but 
Python interpreters were already banned so we'd be no worse off.

-- 
	Hugh Fisher
	CECS, ANU

Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Bruce S. <bas...@nc...>]

This is a very useful suggestion.

At one time David Scherer and I searched for an appropriate
cross-platform environment that would offer native look and feel on
each platform, but at that time we didn't find what we were looking
for. I even tried using GTK on all platforms, Windows and Mac as well
as Linux, but the Windows GTK environment was horribly complex (see
http://vpython.org/gtkmm_on_windows.html), and of course the look and
feel was non-native on Windows and Mac. Moreover, as Scherer put it
(given the relationship between GTK and Gimp ( GNU Image Manipulation
Program), "using GTK on Windows is like importing all of Photoshop
into Visual".

For those of you with broad experience, would you agree with Hugh that
Qt is the best currently available environment for a cross-platform
Visual? I gather that the free GPL version of Qt would be fine for
Visual?

Bruce

On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Hugh Fisher <hug...@an...> wrote:
>> From: Bruce Sherwood <bas...@nc...>
>>
>> If you have the necessary expertise to contribute to finding a way to
>> base VPython on Cocoa, please let me know!
>
> Redesigning Visual Python around a Qt core would give cross-platform
> with native look and feel for Macintosh and MS Windows. AFAIK Trolltech
> have rewritten a good chunk of Qt to run on Cocoa for the same reason of
> the transition to 64 bit.
>
> It wouldn't be as smooth for Linux (although Qt apps run perfectly well
> under GNOME) but I don't believe native look & feel and tight desktop
> integration is quite so important on Linux.
>
> Using Qt is banned by the current iPhone/iPad SDK license agreement, but
> Python interpreters were already banned so we'd be no worse off.
>
> --
>        Hugh Fisher
>        CECS, ANU
>
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Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Guy K. K. <g....@ma...>]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 04:48:05 Bruce Sherwood wrote:
> For those of you with broad experience, would you agree with Hugh that
> Qt is the best currently available environment for a cross-platform
> Visual?

"Best" is always very subjective ... But I do think that Qt is a *very* good 
alternative to the problem. It's well proven and tested across the whole 
variety of platforms. Personally, that's what I would choose.

BTW, also the Enthought guys are using Qt for their development, although, 
they do provide multiple front ends (wxWindows and Qt definitely).

> I gather that the free GPL version of Qt would be fine for Visual?

That would be by now the LGPL version of Qt. This leaves you with more option 
to also be able to use Qt for proprietary (non GPL) development.

Guy

-- 
Guy K. Kloss
Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences
Te Kura Pūtaiao o Mōhiohio me Pāngarau
Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland)
473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building
voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9266   fax: +64 9 441-8181
G....@ma... http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss

Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Bruce S. <bas...@nc...>]

No doubt that Qt is capable of producing cross-platform applications
with native look and feel, but the VPython situation is not one of
producing an "application" but an add-on to a programming language
(Python). Recall that experts on the Cocoa mailing list said that it
had been extremely difficult to get Java working in a Cocoa
environment, for the same reasons that it looks extremely difficult
for VPython (in particular, who owns the interact loop). And working
through Qt sounds even more indirect than what was apparently done for
Java.

So I should rephrase my question to ask whether there is reason to
hope that Qt could be used as a base for VPython on the Mac.

Bruce Sherwood

On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 3:34 PM, Guy K. Kloss <g....@ma...> wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Aug 2010 04:48:05 Bruce Sherwood wrote:
>> For those of you with broad experience, would you agree with Hugh that
>> Qt is the best currently available environment for a cross-platform
>> Visual?
>
> "Best" is always very subjective ... But I do think that Qt is a *very* good
> alternative to the problem. It's well proven and tested across the whole
> variety of platforms. Personally, that's what I would choose.
>
> BTW, also the Enthought guys are using Qt for their development, although,
> they do provide multiple front ends (wxWindows and Qt definitely).
>
>> I gather that the free GPL version of Qt would be fine for Visual?
>
> That would be by now the LGPL version of Qt. This leaves you with more option
> to also be able to use Qt for proprietary (non GPL) development.
>
> Guy
>
> --
> Guy K. Kloss
> Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences
> Te Kura Pūtaiao o Mōhiohio me Pāngarau
> Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland)
> 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building
> voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9266   fax: +64 9 441-8181
> G....@ma... http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by
>
> Make an app they can't live without
> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>
>

Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Joe H. <hea...@gm...>]

> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:52:26 -0600
> From: Bruce Sherwood <bas...@nc...>
> Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately
> 	needed on the Mac
> 
> No doubt that Qt is capable of producing cross-platform applications
> with native look and feel, but the VPython situation is not one of
> producing an "application" but an add-on to a programming language
> (Python). Recall that experts on the Cocoa mailing list said that it
> had been extremely difficult to get Java working in a Cocoa
> environment, for the same reasons that it looks extremely difficult
> for VPython (in particular, who owns the interact loop). And working
> through Qt sounds even more indirect than what was apparently done for
> Java.
> 
> So I should rephrase my question to ask whether there is reason to
> hope that Qt could be used as a base for VPython on the Mac.

As my feeble attempt to add to this conversation, I offer the following.

Software Bisque (www.bisque.com) uses Qt for many (all?) of their flagship products. I know this because I  know one of their developers; we're star party buddies. He's also an OpenGL expert. I'll tell him about VPython (come to think of it, I've already shown it to him at least twice) and I'll see whether he thinks implementing Visual on OS X will work with Qt.

Joe Heafner
Sent from my MacBook Pro

Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Daniel <boy...@gm...>]

Hi all,

Joe this would be very useful!

Bruce makes a good point here: vpython is an extension to the python language.

Now it could be that I don't understand the code so bare with me - I'm just some one that uses python in all 3 platforms.

I think gnuplot has a similar problem I.e. A drawing engine that needs to render on MacOS with a native feel. They solved this problem by having a native client application, called AquaTerm which does all of the rendering.

For MacOS I could imagine a similar solution. Users download a nice vpyterm.app application that displays certain services to the system. Vpython would send drawing instructions to the terminal. It would do this through various ways of interprocess communication on MacOS using the Python Cocoa bridge to make direct calls to the Cocoa. This should be two way, so any interaction instructions can also be returned to vpython. The terminal app is a Cocoa based app that draws with open gl.

Does this move to much of the rendering code out of vp?

Best

Dan 


On 18 Aug 2010, at 00:45, Joe Heafner <hea...@gm...> wrote:

> 
> 
>> Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2010 16:52:26 -0600
>> From: Bruce Sherwood <bas...@nc...>
>> Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately
>> 	needed on the Mac
>> 
>> No doubt that Qt is capable of producing cross-platform applications
>> with native look and feel, but the VPython situation is not one of
>> producing an "application" but an add-on to a programming language
>> (Python). Recall that experts on the Cocoa mailing list said that it
>> had been extremely difficult to get Java working in a Cocoa
>> environment, for the same reasons that it looks extremely difficult
>> for VPython (in particular, who owns the interact loop). And working
>> through Qt sounds even more indirect than what was apparently done for
>> Java.
>> 
>> So I should rephrase my question to ask whether there is reason to
>> hope that Qt could be used as a base for VPython on the Mac.
> 
> As my feeble attempt to add to this conversation, I offer the following.
> 
> Software Bisque (www.bisque.com) uses Qt for many (all?) of their flagship products. I know this because I  know one of their developers; we're star party buddies. He's also an OpenGL expert. I'll tell him about VPython (come to think of it, I've already shown it to him at least twice) and I'll see whether he thinks implementing Visual on OS X will work with Qt.
> 
> Joe Heafner
> Sent from my MacBook Pro
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by 
> 
> Make an app they can't live without
> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev 
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users

Re: [Visualpython-users] Cocoa-based VPython desperately needed on the Mac

[Guy K. K. <g....@ma...>]

On Tue, 17 Aug 2010 17:21:03 Hugh Fisher wrote:
> It wouldn't be as smooth for Linux (although Qt apps run perfectly well 
> under GNOME) but I don't believe native look & feel and tight desktop 
> integration is quite so important on Linux.

Don't get things confused here. Qt does and has always worked *very* well 
under Linux. And GNOME is *not* part of Linux, but just one popular desktop 
environment.

Qt has been developed from the very start to be cross platform for the 
environments UN*X/Linux, Mac and Wintendo. So, running a Qt app under Gnome is 
no different than running a Gtk app (e. g. Gimp) under KDE. And Gnome as well 
as KDE are pretty much interchangeable towards being usable as well as 
supported.

> Using Qt is banned by the current iPhone/iPad SDK license agreement, but 
> Python interpreters were already banned so we'd be no worse off.

The good thing is that Nokia bought Trolltech, and they're putting heavy loads 
of work in putting Qt onto everything mobile (Linux as well as Symbian based) 
as well as desktop. They're also using Python heavily for mobile apps, and 
they're developing PySide (LGPL PyQt replacement). So, let's see where this 
will all lead us, especially with the current Java issues on Android.

But this is going off on a tangent, now ...

Guy

-- 
Guy K. Kloss
Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences
Te Kura Pūtaiao o Mōhiohio me Pāngarau
Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland)
473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building
voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9266   fax: +64 9 441-8181
G....@ma... http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss