visualpython-users

[Visualpython-users] Vpython active stereo 3D -- Will it work with the new Acer Aspire 5738DG that has 3D LCD display screen?

[Stanley S. <ove...@ea...>]

Acer has started selling a rather affordable laptop with a special 3D LCD
screen.   I remember reading a whitepaper a couple of years ago by the guys
who inventing this type of display, if it's the same technology.   The LCD
screen has an additional layer in front which has alternating horizontal
lines of polarizing filters so that even numbered display lines are
polarized one way and odd numbered lines are polarized opposite.   With
appropriate drivers, the graphics chip shows left eye images polarized one
way, then in the next frame the corresponding right eye image polarized
opposite.   By wearing simple polarized glasses that have left and right
polarizing filters oriented at 90 degrees to each other, the observer sees
stereoscopic 3D.  The glasses are passive, not the active shutter type.  The
Acer has a 120 Hz display, so each eye is updated at 60 Hz, which is fast
enough that no flicker would be seen.  One drawback is that the vertical
resolution is effectively cut in half in stereo mode since every other line
is used.  That is, the stereo mode would in effect be 1366 x 384, since the
Acer specs say the "maximum resolution is 1336 x 768".

Here's a link to one place that sells this new Acer:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938.
  Try
www.nextag.com to find competitive prices.

By the way, if you are thinking of getting one of these and using it with
other 3D glasses besides the ones that come with the laptop, be sure to get
the correct type of polarizing 3D glasses -- some have the eyes oriented
with the filters passing vertical and horizontal polarized light, but others
have the filters oriented diagonally at 90 degrees to each other's
polarization.  I don't have the laptop myself, so I don't know which kind it
needs.

Does anyone know if this laptop would display Vpython's active-mode stereo
correctly?   I've only read about Vpython doing active stereo with the LCD
shutter type of stereo, but it seems that this might be just the same from
the API, with the driver and graphics chip just doing the alternating
screens a different way at the display side.

Stan Sokolow

Re: [Visualpython-users] Vpython active stereo 3D -- Will it work with the new Acer Aspire 5738DG that has 3D LCD display screen?

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

As far as I know no one has had access to one of these stereo devices to 
try VPython stereo modes. There even exist screens that require no 
glasses at all, but you have to hold your head just right: baffles allow 
your right eye to see only the odd-numbered vertical display lines, and 
your left eye to see only the even-numbered vertical display lines.

For the Acer that you describe, it's possible that scene.stereo = 
'passive' (not active) would work, depending on how they've set up the 
interface to OpenGL (or if they even have an interface to OpenGL; what 
little I could find on the web about this product talks only about games 
using DirectX 9). The passive mode is intended for use with graphics 
cards that can drive two projectors, each with polarizers, whose images 
are superimposed on a metallic screen, which does not destroy 
polarization (ordinary projector screens return polarized light as 
unpolarized). Viewers wear polarized glasses.

Even without such a graphics card you can observe the scheme. With 
scene.stereo = 'passive' you get two images on the screen, one for each 
eye. If you use small enough images and are able to look "walleyed" you 
can see true stereo without glasses. Or set screen.stereo = 'crosseyed' 
and view the two images cross-eyed.

I don't see why the Acer would show alternate frames. Since there is 
polarization separation there's no reason not to display the left and 
right images at the same time. It's only active stereo with shutter 
glasses (and no separation by polarization) that involves whole left 
images in one frame and whole right images in the next frame, with 
shutters letting only one eye at a time to see the screen. Active stereo 
does require high frame rate, but passive stereo does not.

You say that they've chosen to have horizontal lines polarized, yielding 
1366 x 384. This seems odd; if they polarized vertical lines the 
resolution would be 683 x 768, which would seem to me to be a more 
reasonable choice.

Bruce Sherwood

Stanley Sokolow wrote:
> Acer has started selling a rather affordable laptop with a special 3D 
> LCD screen.   I remember reading a whitepaper a couple of years ago by 
> the guys who inventing this type of display, if it's the same 
> technology.   The LCD screen has an additional layer in front which 
> has alternating horizontal lines of polarizing filters so that even 
> numbered display lines are polarized one way and odd numbered lines 
> are polarized opposite.   With appropriate drivers, the graphics chip 
> shows left eye images polarized one way, then in the next frame the 
> corresponding right eye image polarized opposite.   By wearing simple 
> polarized glasses that have left and right polarizing filters oriented 
> at 90 degrees to each other, the observer sees stereoscopic 3D.  The 
> glasses are passive, not the active shutter type.  The Acer has a 120 
> Hz display, so each eye is updated at 60 Hz, which is fast enough that 
> no flicker would be seen.  One drawback is that the vertical 
> resolution is effectively cut in half in stereo mode since every other 
> line is used.  That is, the stereo mode would in effect be 1366 x 384, 
> since the Acer specs say the "maximum resolution is 1336 x 768".
>
> Here's a link to one place that sells this new Acer:  
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938 
> <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938> 
> .   Try www.nextag.com <http://www.nextag.com/> to find competitive 
> prices.
>
> By the way, if you are thinking of getting one of these and using it 
> with other 3D glasses besides the ones that come with the laptop, be 
> sure to get the correct type of polarizing 3D glasses -- some have the 
> eyes oriented with the filters passing vertical and horizontal 
> polarized light, but others have the filters oriented diagonally at 90 
> degrees to each other's polarization.  I don't have the laptop myself, 
> so I don't know which kind it needs.
>
> Does anyone know if this laptop would display Vpython's active-mode 
> stereo correctly?   I've only read about Vpython doing active stereo 
> with the LCD shutter type of stereo, but it seems that this might be 
> just the same from the API, with the driver and graphics chip just 
> doing the alternating screens a different way at the display side.
>
> Stan Sokolow
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Return on Information:
> Google Enterprise Search pays you back
> Get the facts.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>   

[Visualpython-users] Fwd: Vpython active stereo 3D -- Will it work with the new Acer Aspire 5738DG that has 3D LCD display screen?

[Stanley S. <ove...@ea...>]

Bruce,

Maybe you're right about the passive nature, rather than frame-switching.
I was just guessing.  They could be just merging the left and right images
into the alternate lines, rather than doing frame-sequential switching.
There isn't any technical data that I've found yet.  However, a few reviews
I've read have mentioned seeing faint horizontal lines when viewing without
the polarizing glasses.

I agree that it's odd that the vertical resolution has to be cut in half
rather than the horizontal.   I guess it doesn't really matter in terms of
the local resolution, since either way the number of pixels per inch would
be cut in half in 3D mode.  I suppose those fast-moving shooter games still
look ok anyway, since they are animations and fairly low resolution would
still look ok.

Asus recently released a 3D laptop, but it uses Nvidia graphics with
frame-sequential method that requires the active eyeglasses (LCD shutters).
That method would not cut the resolution in half.  But it's much more
expensive than the Acer.

After posting my message here, I looked around for 3D monitors and found
that there are many.   They used to cost thousands of dollars, but now you
can get them for a few hundred.   Nvidia's kit with eyeglasses and switching
signal device costs about $200.  A GeForce 8 series or better graphics card
is necessary, for about $250 (GeForce 8800). So to get 3D into a desktop,
you'd need to spend about as much as the cost of the entire Acer laptop.
But, you'd have lower resolution with the Acer.  It might be good enough for
Vpython models, though, if Acer provides an OpenGL driver for it.

Stan


On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bruce Sherwood <Bru...@nc...>wrote:

> As far as I know no one has had access to one of these stereo devices to
> try VPython stereo modes. There even exist screens that require no
> glasses at all, but you have to hold your head just right: baffles allow
> your right eye to see only the odd-numbered vertical display lines, and
> your left eye to see only the even-numbered vertical display lines.
>
> For the Acer that you describe, it's possible that scene.stereo =
> 'passive' (not active) would work, depending on how they've set up the
> interface to OpenGL (or if they even have an interface to OpenGL; what
> little I could find on the web about this product talks only about games
> using DirectX 9). The passive mode is intended for use with graphics
> cards that can drive two projectors, each with polarizers, whose images
> are superimposed on a metallic screen, which does not destroy
> polarization (ordinary projector screens return polarized light as
> unpolarized). Viewers wear polarized glasses.
>
> Even without such a graphics card you can observe the scheme. With
> scene.stereo = 'passive' you get two images on the screen, one for each
> eye. If you use small enough images and are able to look "walleyed" you
> can see true stereo without glasses. Or set screen.stereo = 'crosseyed'
> and view the two images cross-eyed.
>
> I don't see why the Acer would show alternate frames. Since there is
> polarization separation there's no reason not to display the left and
> right images at the same time. It's only active stereo with shutter
> glasses (and no separation by polarization) that involves whole left
> images in one frame and whole right images in the next frame, with
> shutters letting only one eye at a time to see the screen. Active stereo
> does require high frame rate, but passive stereo does not.
>
> You say that they've chosen to have horizontal lines polarized, yielding
> 1366 x 384. This seems odd; if they polarized vertical lines the
> resolution would be 683 x 768, which would seem to me to be a more
> reasonable choice.
>
> Bruce Sherwood
>
> Stanley Sokolow wrote:
> > Acer has started selling a rather affordable laptop with a special 3D
> > LCD screen.   I remember reading a whitepaper a couple of years ago by
> > the guys who inventing this type of display, if it's the same
> > technology.   The LCD screen has an additional layer in front which
> > has alternating horizontal lines of polarizing filters so that even
> > numbered display lines are polarized one way and odd numbered lines
> > are polarized opposite.   With appropriate drivers, the graphics chip
> > shows left eye images polarized one way, then in the next frame the
> > corresponding right eye image polarized opposite.   By wearing simple
> > polarized glasses that have left and right polarizing filters oriented
> > at 90 degrees to each other, the observer sees stereoscopic 3D.  The
> > glasses are passive, not the active shutter type.  The Acer has a 120
> > Hz display, so each eye is updated at 60 Hz, which is fast enough that
> > no flicker would be seen.  One drawback is that the vertical
> > resolution is effectively cut in half in stereo mode since every other
> > line is used.  That is, the stereo mode would in effect be 1366 x 384,
> > since the Acer specs say the "maximum resolution is 1336 x 768".
> >
> > Here's a link to one place that sells this new Acer:
> >
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938
> > <
> http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938
> >
> > .   Try www.nextag.com <http://www.nextag.com/> to find competitive
> > prices.
> >
> > By the way, if you are thinking of getting one of these and using it
> > with other 3D glasses besides the ones that come with the laptop, be
> > sure to get the correct type of polarizing 3D glasses -- some have the
> > eyes oriented with the filters passing vertical and horizontal
> > polarized light, but others have the filters oriented diagonally at 90
> > degrees to each other's polarization.  I don't have the laptop myself,
> > so I don't know which kind it needs.
> >
> > Does anyone know if this laptop would display Vpython's active-mode
> > stereo correctly?   I've only read about Vpython doing active stereo
> > with the LCD shutter type of stereo, but it seems that this might be
> > just the same from the API, with the driver and graphics chip just
> > doing the alternating screens a different way at the display side.
> >
> > Stan Sokolow
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Return on Information:
> > Google Enterprise Search pays you back
> > Get the facts.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Visualpython-users mailing list
> > Vis...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Return on Information:
> Google Enterprise Search pays you back
> Get the facts.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>

Re: [Visualpython-users] Fwd: Vpython active stereo 3D -- Will it work with the new Acer Aspire 5738DG that has 3D LCD display screen?

[Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...>]

In the FAQ option in the Documentation section of vpython.org is an 
overview of how VPython has been used with shutter glasses. The problem 
with this "active" mode is that in the past at least it required a CRT 
rather than a flat-panel display, in order to get 50 to 60 frames per 
second for each eye (so 100-120 frames per second). Recent flat-panel 
displays advertise fast frame rates, so maybe active mode stereo will 
become feasible again.

Bruce Sherwood

Stanley Sokolow wrote:
>
> Bruce,
>
> Maybe you're right about the passive nature, rather than 
> frame-switching.   I was just guessing.  They could be just merging 
> the left and right images into the alternate lines, rather than doing 
> frame-sequential switching.  There isn't any technical data that I've 
> found yet.  However, a few reviews I've read have mentioned seeing 
> faint horizontal lines when viewing without the polarizing glasses.
>
> I agree that it's odd that the vertical resolution has to be cut in 
> half rather than the horizontal.   I guess it doesn't really matter in 
> terms of the local resolution, since either way the number of pixels 
> per inch would be cut in half in 3D mode.  I suppose those fast-moving 
> shooter games still look ok anyway, since they are animations and 
> fairly low resolution would still look ok.
>
> Asus recently released a 3D laptop, but it uses Nvidia graphics with 
> frame-sequential method that requires the active eyeglasses (LCD 
> shutters).  That method would not cut the resolution in half.  But 
> it's much more expensive than the Acer.
>
> After posting my message here, I looked around for 3D monitors and 
> found that there are many.   They used to cost thousands of dollars, 
> but now you can get them for a few hundred.   Nvidia's kit with 
> eyeglasses and switching signal device costs about $200.  A GeForce 8 
> series or better graphics card is necessary, for about $250 (GeForce 
> 8800). So to get 3D into a desktop, you'd need to spend about as much 
> as the cost of the entire Acer laptop.   But, you'd have lower 
> resolution with the Acer.  It might be good enough for Vpython models, 
> though, if Acer provides an OpenGL driver for it.
>
> Stan
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bruce Sherwood 
> <Bru...@nc... <mailto:Bru...@nc...>> wrote:
>
>     As far as I know no one has had access to one of these stereo
>     devices to
>     try VPython stereo modes. There even exist screens that require no
>     glasses at all, but you have to hold your head just right: baffles
>     allow
>     your right eye to see only the odd-numbered vertical display
>     lines, and
>     your left eye to see only the even-numbered vertical display lines.
>
>     For the Acer that you describe, it's possible that scene.stereo =
>     'passive' (not active) would work, depending on how they've set up the
>     interface to OpenGL (or if they even have an interface to OpenGL; what
>     little I could find on the web about this product talks only about
>     games
>     using DirectX 9). The passive mode is intended for use with graphics
>     cards that can drive two projectors, each with polarizers, whose
>     images
>     are superimposed on a metallic screen, which does not destroy
>     polarization (ordinary projector screens return polarized light as
>     unpolarized). Viewers wear polarized glasses.
>
>     Even without such a graphics card you can observe the scheme. With
>     scene.stereo = 'passive' you get two images on the screen, one for
>     each
>     eye. If you use small enough images and are able to look
>     "walleyed" you
>     can see true stereo without glasses. Or set screen.stereo =
>     'crosseyed'
>     and view the two images cross-eyed.
>
>     I don't see why the Acer would show alternate frames. Since there is
>     polarization separation there's no reason not to display the left and
>     right images at the same time. It's only active stereo with shutter
>     glasses (and no separation by polarization) that involves whole left
>     images in one frame and whole right images in the next frame, with
>     shutters letting only one eye at a time to see the screen. Active
>     stereo
>     does require high frame rate, but passive stereo does not.
>
>     You say that they've chosen to have horizontal lines polarized,
>     yielding
>     1366 x 384. This seems odd; if they polarized vertical lines the
>     resolution would be 683 x 768, which would seem to me to be a more
>     reasonable choice.
>
>     Bruce Sherwood
>
>     Stanley Sokolow wrote:
>     > Acer has started selling a rather affordable laptop with a
>     special 3D
>     > LCD screen.   I remember reading a whitepaper a couple of years
>     ago by
>     > the guys who inventing this type of display, if it's the same
>     > technology.   The LCD screen has an additional layer in front which
>     > has alternating horizontal lines of polarizing filters so that even
>     > numbered display lines are polarized one way and odd numbered lines
>     > are polarized opposite.   With appropriate drivers, the graphics
>     chip
>     > shows left eye images polarized one way, then in the next frame the
>     > corresponding right eye image polarized opposite.   By wearing
>     simple
>     > polarized glasses that have left and right polarizing filters
>     oriented
>     > at 90 degrees to each other, the observer sees stereoscopic 3D.  The
>     > glasses are passive, not the active shutter type.  The Acer has
>     a 120
>     > Hz display, so each eye is updated at 60 Hz, which is fast
>     enough that
>     > no flicker would be seen.  One drawback is that the vertical
>     > resolution is effectively cut in half in stereo mode since every
>     other
>     > line is used.  That is, the stereo mode would in effect be 1366
>     x 384,
>     > since the Acer specs say the "maximum resolution is 1336 x 768".
>     >
>     > Here's a link to one place that sells this new Acer:
>     >
>     http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938
>     <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938>
>     >
>     <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938
>     <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5285802&CatId=4938>>
>     > .   Try www.nextag.com <http://www.nextag.com>
>     <http://www.nextag.com/> to find competitive
>     > prices.
>     >
>     > By the way, if you are thinking of getting one of these and using it
>     > with other 3D glasses besides the ones that come with the laptop, be
>     > sure to get the correct type of polarizing 3D glasses -- some
>     have the
>     > eyes oriented with the filters passing vertical and horizontal
>     > polarized light, but others have the filters oriented diagonally
>     at 90
>     > degrees to each other's polarization.  I don't have the laptop
>     myself,
>     > so I don't know which kind it needs.
>     >
>     > Does anyone know if this laptop would display Vpython's active-mode
>     > stereo correctly?   I've only read about Vpython doing active stereo
>     > with the LCD shutter type of stereo, but it seems that this might be
>     > just the same from the API, with the driver and graphics chip just
>     > doing the alternating screens a different way at the display side.
>     >
>     > Stan Sokolow
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     > Return on Information:
>     > Google Enterprise Search pays you back
>     > Get the facts.
>     > http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev
>     >
>     >
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > Visualpython-users mailing list
>     > Vis...@li...
>     <mailto:Vis...@li...>
>     > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>     >
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Return on Information:
>     Google Enterprise Search pays you back
>     Get the facts.
>     http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev
>     _______________________________________________
>     Visualpython-users mailing list
>     Vis...@li...
>     <mailto:Vis...@li...>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Return on Information:
> Google Enterprise Search pays you back
> Get the facts.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>   

Re: [Visualpython-users] Fwd: Vpython active stereo 3D -- Will it work with the new Acer Aspire 5738DG that has 3D LCD display screen?

[Stanley S. <ove...@ea...>]

Bruce,

The Asus 3D laptop (G51J) is so far the only other 3D display laptop, as far
as I know.   Here's a brief overview of it:
http://gizmodo.com/5407435/the-asus-g51j-3d-laptop-is-3d-done-right .  It
does say that the display is 120 Hz, so a 60 FPS rate is what it delivers in
its frame-sequential 3D mode.  It uses an nVidia graphics processor, with
nVidia's 3D software.

The Acer uses TriDef 3D software.   TriDef has a description of the kinds of
3D graphics that exist now:
http://www.tridef.com/display/profile/all.html.  The Acer apparently
has "line interlaced", as opposed to "page-flipped
(OpenGL Stereo)" that the Asus laptop has.    Maybe OpenGL does not support
line interlaced.

Stan

On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 4:50 PM, Bruce Sherwood <Bru...@nc...>wrote:

> In the FAQ option in the Documentation section of vpython.org is an
> overview of how VPython has been used with shutter glasses. The problem
> with this "active" mode is that in the past at least it required a CRT
> rather than a flat-panel display, in order to get 50 to 60 frames per
> second for each eye (so 100-120 frames per second). Recent flat-panel
> displays advertise fast frame rates, so maybe active mode stereo will
> become feasible again.
>
> Bruce Sherwood
>
>