visualpython-users

RE: [Visualpython-users] VPython idle

[Patrick K. O'B. <po...@or...>]

Bruce,

This idea of replacing the default IDLE with the one from VPython strikes me
as backwards. And I am baffled by your assertion that the interpretive
environment is not suitable for novices. I would think most people would
install Python first and start working with it. Then they will discover
VPython and install it. I would expect VPython to install itself in its own
directory and leave all the existing Python stuff alone. Even if your
version of IDLE is a huge improvement, that doesn't seem like a good enough
reason to replace the regular IDLE and then leave it up to the user to
figure out how to get the regular IDLE working again.

I can't think of any reason why VPython couldn't just install into its own
folder, such as c:\python21\tools\vidle (on Windows), and add its own
*additional* links to the start menu and desktop. I happen to like both
versions of IDLE and would like to see them play nicely together. Your
approach strikes me as a wee bit adversarial. I'd rather not see it become
the standard for VPython.

I copied Guido in on this message to give both of you the chance to be
involved in this discussion. If either of you think I'm way off base please
feel free to enlighten me. Otherwise, please take this message in the spirit
of helpfulness in which it is given.

---
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech
"I am, therefore I think."

-----Original Message-----
From: vis...@li...
[mailto:vis...@li...]On Behalf Of Bruce
Sherwood
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:16 AM
To: vis...@li...
Subject: [Visualpython-users] VPython idle

--On Tuesday, May 29, 2001 14:29 -0500 "Patrick K. O'Brien"
<po...@or...> wrote:

> Mistakes happen. Thanks for the info. I will reinstall as you suggest. Any
> idea what the future folder name will be so that I can manually set my
> system up in anticipation of the official procedure? I'm assuming python's
> IDLE will continue to go into tools\idle while vpython's version will go
> into, what? Tools\vpython? Tools\vidle?

I don't know what name to give the "official" idle folder. But for the sake
of novice users it is the VPython idle that will go in Tools/idle, so that
all the shortcuts will point to it (experts who want the "official" one can
of course make a shortcut to it).

The VPython idle has a very large number of important enhancements which
are of particular importance to novices but useful for others as well:

Spawns a separate process, so if anything goes wrong during the run, IDLE
stays up.

One-button (F5) user interface much better for rapid edit/run cycle. This
is particularly important for novices, for whom the interpretative
environment is not suitable, but it works very well for experts, too.

Infinite undo.

Automatically saves file at start of run, so very difficult to lose any
work.

Rationalized menus.

Maintains scrolling output window across runs, scrolling forward on each
run, so easy to scroll back to earlier run, which has a header.

For Visual programs it is important that upon reaching the end of the
program the graphics window should NOT go away but be inspectable while
examining code. The VPython Idle and Visual environment conspire to make
this work properly.




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RE: [Visualpython-users] VPython idle

[Bruce S. <ba...@an...>]

There seem to be incompatible needs, which we've run into before in a 
slightly different context. As in the previous case, I think what is needed 
is simply better documentation and installers on the VPython web site to 
explain what's happening, and I'll do that.

There are two types of users of VPython with very different needs and 
expectations. One is the relatively expert programmer who comes to Python 
from other languages and then after some time comes to VPython. The other 
is the student (including in our own physics course) who may never have 
written a computer program before and for whom VPython is their first 
programming environment.

Such a student needs utterly simple installation procedures and completely 
obvious shortcuts to using VPython productively right away. After much 
experimentation, we've solved the nontrivial problem of making this work 
for such users. This includes keeping students out of the interactive mode, 
which can be a good place for experts but is quite inappropriate for 
novices.

The sophisticated user needs an explanation that this is what we've done, 
and how to get around it (easily), and that's where we've not done an 
adequate job. After recovering from a major textbook submission, I'll 
improve the web site and installers.

Bruce Sherwood

RE: [Visualpython-users] VPython idle

[Patrick K. O'B. <po...@or...>]

I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from, and I
agree that there are two types of users. (I guess I wouldn't have thought
physics students would have that much trouble installing and using software,
but I believe you.) At the same time, I'm still not ready to give in
completely on this issue. Here is why - I think we can find a solution that
satisfies the needs of both users.

To begin with, I think we need to agree to leave the Python default stuff
alone. So Guido gets tools/idle. VPython will need to create its own
directory. Let's say it's called tools/vidle or tools/vpython. Nobody is
ever really going to care and the students don't even need to know that it
got put there. All they need is an icon to click on. So have the installer
create an icon in Start | Programs | Python 2.1 that is labeled ... VPython,
of course.

"Okay, students. Click on Install to install VPython. After that is
finished, go to Start | Programs | Python 2.1 and click on VPython to start
the VPython tool. If you have any interest in learning how to program in
Python, you can select IDLE (Python GUI) to get to the Python interactive
mode. But do so on your own time because it isn't relevant to this class.
For this class we will only be using VPython."

What I have described above is exactly the setup I manually created on my
machine. I am on my third day of teaching my fifth grade daughter how to
program in Python (and having a blast, let me tell you). When we are doing
regular programming I tell her "click on IDLE" and when we are messing
around with VPython I tell her "click on VPython." If she can do it I would
hope your physics students could also. (Or perhaps they shouldn't be
studying physics.)

Your thoughts?

---
Patrick K. O'Brien
Orbtech
"I am, therefore I think."

-----Original Message-----
From: vis...@li...
[mailto:vis...@li...]On Behalf Of Bruce
Sherwood
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:54 PM
To: vis...@li...
Cc: gu...@py...
Subject: RE: [Visualpython-users] VPython idle

There seem to be incompatible needs, which we've run into before in a
slightly different context. As in the previous case, I think what is needed
is simply better documentation and installers on the VPython web site to
explain what's happening, and I'll do that.

There are two types of users of VPython with very different needs and
expectations. One is the relatively expert programmer who comes to Python
from other languages and then after some time comes to VPython. The other
is the student (including in our own physics course) who may never have
written a computer program before and for whom VPython is their first
programming environment.

Such a student needs utterly simple installation procedures and completely
obvious shortcuts to using VPython productively right away. After much
experimentation, we've solved the nontrivial problem of making this work
for such users. This includes keeping students out of the interactive mode,
which can be a good place for experts but is quite inappropriate for
novices.

The sophisticated user needs an explanation that this is what we've done,
and how to get around it (easily), and that's where we've not done an
adequate job. After recovering from a major textbook submission, I'll
improve the web site and installers.

Bruce Sherwood


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