visualpython-users

[Visualpython-users] re: Close, but no cigar

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

Also as to the VPython distro:

Guido has unambigiously stated a strong preference that IDLE start in
interactive mode. (He can correct me if I am wrong).

From my point of view, as the stated preference of the Developer of IDLE
(not the BDFL) , I would and will respect that preference.

Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt.

Incredibly. He states so repeatedly.

The VPython distro - despite, I think, Bruce knowing full well Guido 's
preference - imposes his own preference on the One And Only IDLE, over
Guido's.

So after the VPython install, the One and Only IDLE starts up as a text
editor.  And will do so forever for any user who does not understand the
fact that there is an ability to reset the default back to where it
started - Interactive Mode.  In other words, precisely the user for whom
Guido, it seems to me, feels it important that the Interactive Mode be
default.

Guido wrote the foundation code. David Scherer, Kurt Kaiser , and others
made significant contributions to its development.

Bruce - always, it seem to me, for good reason - pisses me off.

Art

Re: [Visualpython-users] Close, but no cigar

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

>Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt.

>Incredibly. He states so repeatedly.

All the more incredible, to me, because - particularly for teaching -
VPython's ability to function directly at the interactive prompt is one of
its more incredible features.

I worked hard to reconfigure PyGeo, in its latest version. to be able to
take full advantage of this capacity of VPython's.  Simply took me a while
to figure out how to do so.

So the argument is not purely theoretical, and not purely as an observer.
*I* want IDLE to start up interactively, and have every intention of
overriding Bruce's override in a PyGeo distro.

I simply can't stomach to reply directly to Bruce's comments about the
"data"  supporting his view - in light, among other things,  of the div
operator argument background, where his "data" seemed to be so influential.

He knows full well he can support that "data" with two sentences of
instructions to his students, to get them where we feels they need to be
when opening IDLE.  Rather than effecting all kinds of peoples who's needs
are quite different (stating generously that Bruce correctly perceives the
needs, and the importance of those needs, of his users).

This is silly stuff, really. And always has been.

But its hard to laugh.

Art

[Visualpython-users] Mac newbie needs more help

[Gary P. <pa...@in...>]

I've got OSX 10.2  (10.2.6, I think).  Fink is installed.  python from fink
is installed and runs.
THe December 2002 Apple Development tools are installed.

I've downloaded Numeric.  When I run setup.py install, I get an error "gcc
not found".

I understand that there's something really basic missing, but bear with me:
I am a complete Mac novice.

What's the magic incantation?

-Gary

Re: [Visualpython-users] Mac newbie needs more help -- addendum

[Gary P. <pa...@in...>]

I also have a working X11.  I think I got it from fink, not Apple.  Could
that be the problem?

-g

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Pajer" <pa...@in...>
To: <vis...@li...>
Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 7:30 PM
Subject: [Visualpython-users] Mac newbie needs more help


> I've got OSX 10.2  (10.2.6, I think).  Fink is installed.  python from
fink
> is installed and runs.
> THe December 2002 Apple Development tools are installed.
>
> I've downloaded Numeric.  When I run setup.py install, I get an error "gcc
> not found".
>
> I understand that there's something really basic missing, but bear with
me:
> I am a complete Mac novice.
>
> What's the magic incantation?
>
> -Gary
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users

Re: [Visualpython-users] Mac newbie needs more help

[Aaron T. <ti...@ma...>]

You may want to check that gcc is in your path. For instance, "which 
gcc" or "gcc -v" should return something that makes sense. For me, 
"which gcc" returns "/usr/local/bin".

I did have one problem with the Numeric installation, which was rather 
strange. Setup gave an error because it couldn't find /sw/bin/python 
even though I ran python2.2 to set up Numeric, so I created a symbolic 
link /sw/bin/python that pointed to /sw/bin/python2.2.

I assume that you specifically installed Python 2.2 from Fink and are 
using python2.2 to run your scripts.

I dont' think that's the magic incantation, but talking to your 
computer with a nice voice always helps :-)

AT

On Saturday, August 30, 2003, at 07:30 PM, Gary Pajer wrote:

> I've got OSX 10.2  (10.2.6, I think).  Fink is installed.  python from 
> fink
> is installed and runs.
> THe December 2002 Apple Development tools are installed.
>
> I've downloaded Numeric.  When I run setup.py install, I get an error 
> "gcc
> not found".
>
> I understand that there's something really basic missing, but bear 
> with me:
> I am a complete Mac novice.
>
> What's the magic incantation?
>
> -Gary
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
> Welcome to geek heaven.
> http://thinkgeek.com/sf
> _______________________________________________
> Visualpython-users mailing list
> Vis...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/visualpython-users
>

Re: [Visualpython-users] Mac newbie needs more help

[Gary P. <pa...@in...>]

I did a "locate gcc" and got a bunch of headers and libraries.  Nothing that
looked like an executable.  Certainly nothing in any .../bin directory.

(BTW sorry this is slightly OT, but the only reason [at the moment] that I
need to resolve this is to get visual running.  I'll take this issue
elsewhere if you want, or if you think I'll ge better results, and you can
tell me where to take it.)

Is gcc something that comes with OSX (Darwin)?  or does it install with the
Developer Tools? or something else?

To install the Developer Tools I double clicked the "Package"  (I think)
icon in the Dev.Tools folder... I didn't touch anything in the sub
directory.   Then I waited a very long time while the computer did
*something*.   It must have told me that the installation was successfully
completed; I think I'd have noticed if it didn't.  Does all that sound
right?

I never thought I'd say this, but I'm begining to pine for MS ...
specifically WinXP.

-gary


> You may want to check that gcc is in your path. For instance, "which
> gcc" or "gcc -v" should return something that makes sense. For me,
> "which gcc" returns "/usr/local/bin".
>
> I did have one problem with the Numeric installation, which was rather
> strange. Setup gave an error because it couldn't find /sw/bin/python
> even though I ran python2.2 to set up Numeric, so I created a symbolic
> link /sw/bin/python that pointed to /sw/bin/python2.2.
>
> I assume that you specifically installed Python 2.2 from Fink and are
> using python2.2 to run your scripts.
>
> I dont' think that's the magic incantation, but talking to your
> computer with a nice voice always helps :-)
>
> AT
>

Re: [Visualpython-users] Mac newbie needs more help

[Aaron T. <ti...@ma...>]

On Wednesday, September 3, 2003, at 08:39 AM, Gary Pajer wrote:

>
> I did a "locate gcc" and got a bunch of headers and libraries.  
> Nothing that
> looked like an executable.  Certainly nothing in any .../bin directory.
>
> (BTW sorry this is slightly OT, but the only reason [at the moment] 
> that I
> need to resolve this is to get visual running.  I'll take this issue
> elsewhere if you want, or if you think I'll ge better results, and you 
> can
> tell me where to take it.)
>
> Is gcc something that comes with OSX (Darwin)?  or does it install 
> with the
> Developer Tools? or something else?
>

I think it is installed with Developer Tools.

> To install the Developer Tools I double clicked the "Package"  (I 
> think)
> icon in the Dev.Tools folder... I didn't touch anything in the sub
> directory.   Then I waited a very long time while the computer did
> *something*.   It must have told me that the installation was 
> successfully
> completed; I think I'd have noticed if it didn't.  Does all that sound
> right?
>

Yes, that sounds right.

> I never thought I'd say this, but I'm begining to pine for MS ...
> specifically WinXP.
>
>

Oh, no. Please don't jump :-)

When you type "which gcc", what does it tell you?

AT

Re: [Visualpython-users] re: Close, but no cigar

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

You are correct that Guido wants the default to be that IDLE start in 
the shell, not in an edit window, and he is not comfortable with the 
autosave feature, but IDLE does have features for changing these 
behaviors, both of which come from the VPython project and were 
innovations implemented by Dave Scherer. This is why the VPython 
installer instructions say very explicitly that these defaults are 
reversed by this installer, and alerts users to this. There was some 
discussion during the long idlefork development that the way to 
customize IDLE could include changing config-main.def, which was to be 
considered a legitimate move. That's how I knew how to achieve this effect.

For a huge number of users of VPython known to me (hundreds of students) 
it is important that IDLE start in an edit window and do autosaves. I've 
tried in various forums to explain what data these decisions are based 
on, and I won't repeat all of that here. I've prominently documented in 
the installer instructions what the situation is, and it is easy for a 
user to change it (and I'm open to improved wording of this). It makes 
sense to put a minor burden on the more sophisticated user rather than 
on the less sophisticated user (the latter alternative would be to start 
in the shell and disable autosave, but explain in the installer how to 
change this; abundant experience with users new to Python shows that the 
fewer the instructions the better, by a lot). By the way, all users will 
see the shell, because that's what the output window is.

Arthur, I do appreciate your writing up your concerns. I think you're 
right in your previous note to say that the desktop icon should be "IDLE 
for VPython" as it was when using the predecessor to the new IDLE, or 
some such, and I'll be happy to change it. I was a bit wary of this name 
because it could perhaps be misconstrued as claiming all of the new IDLE 
as a product of the VPython effort, which it is only in part. Maybe you 
or someone can come up with a better icon name (something like "IDLE - 
VPython demos", although you have to do an Open to get a demo). I'll 
wait a few days to see what suggestions crop up. Thanks.

Bruce Sherwood

Arthur wrote:

> Also as to the VPython distro:
> 
> Guido has unambigiously stated a strong preference that IDLE start in
> interactive mode. (He can correct me if I am wrong).
> 
> From my point of view, as the stated preference of the Developer of IDLE
> (not the BDFL) , I would and will respect that preference.
> 
> Bruce simply does not see any significance to the interactive prompt.
> 
> Incredibly. He states so repeatedly.
> 
> The VPython distro - despite, I think, Bruce knowing full well Guido 's
> preference - imposes his own preference on the One And Only IDLE, over
> Guido's.
> 
> So after the VPython install, the One and Only IDLE starts up as a text
> editor.  And will do so forever for any user who does not understand the
> fact that there is an ability to reset the default back to where it
> started - Interactive Mode.  In other words, precisely the user for whom
> Guido, it seems to me, feels it important that the Interactive Mode be
> default.
> 
> Guido wrote the foundation code. David Scherer, Kurt Kaiser , and others
> made significant contributions to its development.
> 
> Bruce - always, it seem to me, for good reason - pisses me off.
> 
> Art
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Visualpython-users] re: Close, but no cigar

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

> You are correct that Guido wants the default to be that IDLE start in
> the shell, not in an edit window, and he is not comfortable with the
> autosave feature

Bruce,

I would like to remind you that I had some time ago, at considerable effort,
created - essentially for your benefit - a prototype Standalone VPython.  In
a Python runtime environment. With full Inno set-up files completed. And
made it available for download.

Indicating to you that it was my opinion that this might be the simplest
approach that would allow you full "rights" to customize to your hearts
content, and while actually putting *less* of a burden on your users than
you are currently - while avoiding assaults by the likes of me, who feels
your current approach is not fully responsible.  One download, all complete.

There were posts to the list indicating some definite interest in this
approach. At least as a possible alternative, and something to explore.

That's the last I heard of it.

Some clue, maybe?

Art