visualpython-users

[Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Matthew K. <mak...@un...>]

I'd like to add my two cents to the discussion of the best way to 
distribute VPython and its associated modules.  I've been involved with 
Bruce in an introductory course that makes use of VPython for a few 
years.  I can attest to the fact that there is a huge variance in the 
level of introductory university students' computer savvy.  Some of our 
students come into the class with experience in compiling software.  But 
many others have never downloaded and installed a software package before!

We've had many cases where students have told us that they can't get 
VPython running on their own computers.  When pressed, they reveal that 
they've only installed VPython and not Python, even though the website 
clearly states that you need to install two executables.  Students are 
often notoriously poor at following directions, especially ones that 
have several steps.

The majority of our students don't have any problems with installation 
issues.  But when you're dealing with a class of 100 students or more, 
even if a small fraction of students have problems, it's enough to give 
instructors major headaches.  If educators are going to be one target 
audience of VPython, the installation procedure has to be as simple as 
possible for their students.

The best solution, IMO, is for there to be two distribution methods--one 
for those who have never used Python, and one for Python experts. 
Ideally, (though Bruce has pointed out the practical difficulties of 
doing this) the novice installation package should contain everything 
needed to get started (Python, VPython, Numarray, etc.).



Matt Kohlmyer

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

> for those who have never used Python, and one for Python experts.
> Ideally, (though Bruce has pointed out the practical difficulties of
> doing this) the novice installation package should contain everything
> needed to get started (Python, VPython, Numarray, etc.).

Again - I am not as far off from that thinking as might be surmised.  I
would like to get PyGeo in the hands as many folks as possible - its quite
cool, IMO - and do not want to limit the audience to geeks of any stripe.
So an all-in-one environment - that includes Python itself - is an
alternative that interests me as well.  The additional upside, if its
configured not to interfere with anything that might already exist on
anyone's machine, is that there would be alot of freedom to do things like
configure a IDE and help files specific to VPython.  I already have, for
example, a working compilation of a nice open source editor - ScITE -
configured for the syntax hightlighting of PyGeo keywords.  Easy enough to
do that for VPython.  (Frankly I think that VPython should unmarry itself
from IDLE.  There are a lot of alternatives, free and open source, that
might be explored.)

But I also agree with Bruce that a line needs to be drawn as to what
platforms will be supported.  The all-in-one distribution, for example,
might sensibly have more limited platform support than the distutils based
distribution, for example.

For my purposes Windows would be the target of the all-in-one distro.  I do
understand the importance of Apple in the educational community - but don't
know enough about it to comment about what is appropriate there.  Other than
understanding that Linux compatibility is being achieved.

But an effort at an all-in-one Linux distribution seems to me a bad idea.
Though it is probably achievable in some reasonable way if limited to let's
say a version or two of Redhat and compatables, and done via rpm.

And again, I certainly think there should be a good distribution for those
"in the loop" as to geeky kinds of things.

 There is no reason those folks will not appreciate VPython, and are the
ones likely to help create a community capable of sustaining and extending
it.

Some of the recent demos posted up to VPython gives a good idea of the kinds
of things it is capable of in experienced hands.

Art

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Matthew K. <mak...@un...>]

Arthur wrote:

> For my purposes Windows would be the target of the all-in-one distro.  I do
> understand the importance of Apple in the educational community - but don't
> know enough about it to comment about what is appropriate there.  Other than
> understanding that Linux compatibility is being achieved.
> 
> But an effort at an all-in-one Linux distribution seems to me a bad idea.
> Though it is probably achievable in some reasonable way if limited to let's
> say a version or two of Redhat and compatables, and done via rpm.
> 
> And again, I certainly think there should be a good distribution for those
> "in the loop" as to geeky kinds of things.
> 

I agree.  I mostly had Windows in mind when I made my comments, since 
it's the most widespread OS.  I think once you've crossed into the 
technical, "geeky" Unix/Linux domain, you're entitled to less hand-holding.


Matt

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

Sounds like we are in fierce agreement!

Small technical note: There isn't any real "marriage" of Visual and
idlefork; anyone can obviously edit Visual programs with any editor
whatsoever. But there has to be at least one way to do it in a bundled
distribution, and idlefork has served the purpose well.

Bruce Sherwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur" <ajs...@op...>
To: "Matthew Kohlmyer" <mak...@un...>;
<vis...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues


> > for those who have never used Python, and one for Python experts.
> > Ideally, (though Bruce has pointed out the practical difficulties of
> > doing this) the novice installation package should contain everything
> > needed to get started (Python, VPython, Numarray, etc.).
>
> Again - I am not as far off from that thinking as might be surmised.  I
> would like to get PyGeo in the hands as many folks as possible - its quite
> cool, IMO - and do not want to limit the audience to geeks of any stripe.
> So an all-in-one environment - that includes Python itself - is an
> alternative that interests me as well.  The additional upside, if its
> configured not to interfere with anything that might already exist on
> anyone's machine, is that there would be alot of freedom to do things like
> configure a IDE and help files specific to VPython.  I already have, for
> example, a working compilation of a nice open source editor - ScITE -
> configured for the syntax hightlighting of PyGeo keywords.  Easy enough to
> do that for VPython.  (Frankly I think that VPython should unmarry itself
> from IDLE.  There are a lot of alternatives, free and open source, that
> might be explored.)
>
> But I also agree with Bruce that a line needs to be drawn as to what
> platforms will be supported.  The all-in-one distribution, for example,
> might sensibly have more limited platform support than the distutils based
> distribution, for example.
>
> For my purposes Windows would be the target of the all-in-one distro.  I
do
> understand the importance of Apple in the educational community - but
don't
> know enough about it to comment about what is appropriate there.  Other
than
> understanding that Linux compatibility is being achieved.
>
> But an effort at an all-in-one Linux distribution seems to me a bad idea.
> Though it is probably achievable in some reasonable way if limited to
let's
> say a version or two of Redhat and compatables, and done via rpm.
>
> And again, I certainly think there should be a good distribution for those
> "in the loop" as to geeky kinds of things.
>
>  There is no reason those folks will not appreciate VPython, and are the
> ones likely to help create a community capable of sustaining and extending
> it.
>
> Some of the recent demos posted up to VPython gives a good idea of the
kinds
> of things it is capable of in experienced hands.
>
> Art

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

I had the vague notion that ScITE is Windows-specific -- right or wrong?

Highlighting Visual keywords might be nice, but it is really the high
interactivity of idlefork that matters to me. Anything that offers one-key
edit/run cycles is what I want, and what I want for my students. Is that
possible with ScITE?

Bruce Sherwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur" <ajs...@op...>
To: "Bruce Sherwood" <bas...@un...>;
<vis...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues


> > Small technical note: There isn't any real "marriage" of Visual and
> > idlefork; anyone can obviously edit Visual programs with any editor
> > whatsoever. But there has to be at least one way to do it in a bundled
> > distribution, and idlefork has served the purpose well.
>
> I might be getting ahead of myself.  But even the new IDLE is only syntax
> aware as to Python. Is it easy enough to, for example, add syntax
> highlighting of VPython keywords?
>
> I do know that with something like SciTE, with a little futzing that even
> someone of my modest C++ skills is capable of, you can have an editor
aware
> of Python *and* VPython keywords - with the potential of acutally going
> quite a bit further than that in customizing it as a VPython environment.
>
> BTW, the creator of ScITE is also the author of scintilla, SciTE's
> underlying C++ library. Scintilla is widley used in the non-Python world,
> but is also used as an underlying library for PythonWin and the wxPython
> editor text widget.  And though it is C++,  its creator considers Python
his
> favorite programming langauge, and he in fact uses Python as a
configration
> tool for customizations.  So its all in the family.  And probably why
> someone like myself is comforatable with it's customization features.
>
> Just a thought really.  Its the conclusion I have reached as to what works
> best as to PyGeo, in any case.
>
> Art
>
>
>

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

> I had the vague notion that ScITE is Windows-specific -- right or wrong?

Windows and Linux GTK.   Mac out in the cold, once again.

>
> Highlighting Visual keywords might be nice, but it is really the high
> interactivity of idlefork that matters to me. Anything that offers one-key
> edit/run cycles is what I want, and what I want for my students. Is that
> possible with ScITE?

Absolutely.  Out of the box, it works with about 25 languages.  One thing I
do in my cusotmization is narrow it down to 1 - Python.

F5 is "Go" - run Python against the current script.
Cntrl 1 runs a Python syntax check.

No "seperate process" issues as in the standard IDLE, that as per your
posting - confirmed by own own testing of alpha2 - have not been corrected
yet in the merged IDLE. (Though I am confident it will be.)

And the opportunity to go much further down the road toward VPython specific
customization beyond simple keyword syntax highlighting -  like VPython word
completion (cntrl enter), hints, etc.

A good counter argument is the importance of IDLE's inactive prompt. Which I
happen to believe *is* important. I happen to use IDLE only for that.  And
have never found it strange to use it only for that and something else for
editing.   But there is an argument to be made that an "all in one" tool has
its advantages.

PyGeo does not work at the interactive prompt the way VPython can.  So
perhaps I am prejudiced by that, and that IDLE does make more sense for
VPython than it might for PyGeo.

Anyway, more offering to lend assistance if you think the concept has
merit - not selling it too heavily.

Art

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

Sounds interesting indeed, Arthur. Thanks for the overview. It doesn't
matter that the Mac is out in the cold, I suspect. If ScITE runs on Linux it
should run on Mac OSX + Apple X11, which is also the only environment where
idlefork has a chance of running on a Mac.

Indeed, the terminate program issues in idlefork are being addressed. An
advantage of the separate process is that if something goes wrong in the
run, the editing environment is still up.

Another feature important for my uses is the automatic save that is done on
a run, which protects students from losing work. Is that a possibility in
ScITE?

I don't care at all about the interactive capability and I don't have my
students use that facility at all. For novices the Python shell is a bad
environment, because it undercuts the notion of a program as a thing to be
executed, and edit and import history in the shell is very murky. In
contrast to what some others think, to me the shell is useful only for
experts. And when there is one-key rapid turnaround as there is in idlefork
(and I gather in ScITE) the need for a shell is extremely small.

I should indeed take a look at ScITE. I vaguely remember bouncing off it a
long time ago, but I now forget why. Maybe it was Windows-only at that time?

Bruce Sherwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur" <ajs...@op...>
To: "Bruce Sherwood" <bas...@un...>;
<vis...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues


> > I had the vague notion that ScITE is Windows-specific -- right or wrong?
>
> Windows and Linux GTK.   Mac out in the cold, once again.
>
> >
> > Highlighting Visual keywords might be nice, but it is really the high
> > interactivity of idlefork that matters to me. Anything that offers
one-key
> > edit/run cycles is what I want, and what I want for my students. Is that
> > possible with ScITE?
>
> Absolutely.  Out of the box, it works with about 25 languages.  One thing
I
> do in my cusotmization is narrow it down to 1 - Python.
>
> F5 is "Go" - run Python against the current script.
> Cntrl 1 runs a Python syntax check.
>
> No "seperate process" issues as in the standard IDLE, that as per your
> posting - confirmed by own own testing of alpha2 - have not been corrected
> yet in the merged IDLE. (Though I am confident it will be.)
>
> And the opportunity to go much further down the road toward VPython
specific
> customization beyond simple keyword syntax highlighting -  like VPython
word
> completion (cntrl enter), hints, etc.
>
> A good counter argument is the importance of IDLE's inactive prompt. Which
I
> happen to believe *is* important. I happen to use IDLE only for that.  And
> have never found it strange to use it only for that and something else for
> editing.   But there is an argument to be made that an "all in one" tool
has
> its advantages.
>
> PyGeo does not work at the interactive prompt the way VPython can.  So
> perhaps I am prejudiced by that, and that IDLE does make more sense for
> VPython than it might for PyGeo.
>
> Anyway, more offering to lend assistance if you think the concept has
> merit - not selling it too heavily.
>
> Art

RE: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[jon s. <js...@so...>]

I picked up ScITE just a few weeks ago and it has quickly become my default
programming environment.
Its really first rate.
When I need a shell, I open another window and run python or idle.


------------------------------------------
Jonathan Schull, Ph.D.
Sc...@Di... <mailto:Sc...@Di...>
http://radio.weblogs.com/0104369/stories/2002/09/24/JonathanSchullOnOnePage.
html
<http://radio.weblogs.com/0104369/stories/2002/09/24/JonathanSchullOnOnePage
.html>
36 Brunswick St., Rochester NY 14607
585-738-6696 cell and v-mail
585-242-9497 landline
978-246-0487 fax
------------------------------------------



> -----Original Message-----
> From: vis...@li...
> [mailto:vis...@li...]On Behalf Of
> Bruce Sherwood
> Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 9:33 AM
> To: vis...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues
>
>
> Sounds interesting indeed, Arthur. Thanks for the overview. It doesn't
> matter that the Mac is out in the cold, I suspect. If ScITE runs
> on Linux it
> should run on Mac OSX + Apple X11, which is also the only
> environment where
> idlefork has a chance of running on a Mac.
>
> Indeed, the terminate program issues in idlefork are being addressed. An
> advantage of the separate process is that if something goes wrong in the
> run, the editing environment is still up.
>
> Another feature important for my uses is the automatic save that
> is done on
> a run, which protects students from losing work. Is that a possibility in
> ScITE?
>
> I don't care at all about the interactive capability and I don't have my
> students use that facility at all. For novices the Python shell is a bad
> environment, because it undercuts the notion of a program as a thing to be
> executed, and edit and import history in the shell is very murky. In
> contrast to what some others think, to me the shell is useful only for
> experts. And when there is one-key rapid turnaround as there is
> in idlefork
> (and I gather in ScITE) the need for a shell is extremely small.
>
> I should indeed take a look at ScITE. I vaguely remember bouncing off it a
> long time ago, but I now forget why. Maybe it was Windows-only at
> that time?
>
> Bruce Sherwood
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Arthur" <ajs...@op...>
> To: "Bruce Sherwood" <bas...@un...>;
> <vis...@li...>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 18, 2003 10:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues
>
>
> > > I had the vague notion that ScITE is Windows-specific --
> right or wrong?
> >
> > Windows and Linux GTK.   Mac out in the cold, once again.
> >
> > >
> > > Highlighting Visual keywords might be nice, but it is really the high
> > > interactivity of idlefork that matters to me. Anything that offers
> one-key
> > > edit/run cycles is what I want, and what I want for my
> students. Is that
> > > possible with ScITE?
> >
> > Absolutely.  Out of the box, it works with about 25 languages.
> One thing
> I
> > do in my cusotmization is narrow it down to 1 - Python.
> >
> > F5 is "Go" - run Python against the current script.
> > Cntrl 1 runs a Python syntax check.
> >
> > No "seperate process" issues as in the standard IDLE, that as per your
> > posting - confirmed by own own testing of alpha2 - have not
> been corrected
> > yet in the merged IDLE. (Though I am confident it will be.)
> >
> > And the opportunity to go much further down the road toward VPython
> specific
> > customization beyond simple keyword syntax highlighting -  like VPython
> word
> > completion (cntrl enter), hints, etc.
> >
> > A good counter argument is the importance of IDLE's inactive
> prompt. Which
> I
> > happen to believe *is* important. I happen to use IDLE only for
> that.  And
> > have never found it strange to use it only for that and
> something else for
> > editing.   But there is an argument to be made that an "all in one" tool
> has
> > its advantages.
> >
> > PyGeo does not work at the interactive prompt the way VPython can.  So
> > perhaps I am prejudiced by that, and that IDLE does make more sense for
> > VPython than it might for PyGeo.
> >
> > Anyway, more offering to lend assistance if you think the concept has
> > merit - not selling it too heavily.
> >
> > Art
>
>
>
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Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

[Bruce]
> I should indeed take a look at ScITE. I vaguely remember bouncing off it a
> long time ago, but I now forget why. Maybe it was Windows-only at that
time?

I am glad.

Because after pledging not to hardsell it, I was going to relent - having
thought about it some more - and pitch it a little more.

I will discuss it as to PyGeo.

What I think is important about the environment, as customized, is not only
what it has, but what it doesn't have.  I have been doing Python for some
time, and have never used a class browser, formal debugger, etc.  Simply was
inconsistent with how I approached the learning curve, and what felt natural
to me specifically as it concerns Python.

Having superfluous features in the environment I think makes it feel
foreign.  And one is not sure as to what features one should or should not
be exploring.

The features you describe you are focusing one for your students, are the
same features I have wanted and accessed as a user -  and essentially only
those.  And I have gotten pretty far with them.

A very focused environment, uncluttered is the ideal, IMO.  And with some
customization - more taking away unneeded features (e.g. the ability to
syntax highlight REXX), than adding new ones  - one can be left with very
much that.

And in fact this kind of customization as an environment for specialized
needs is exactly the niche ScITE is designed to fill.  And I think that is
also important.  It is using ScITE/scintilla exactly as it designed to be
used - not hacking at it.

Art

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

It's true that I don't ever use those other wonderful tools, either. But
maybe I should? You're right that none of that is appropriate for my
students.

Bruce Sherwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur" <ajs...@op...>
To: "Bruce Sherwood" <bas...@un...>;
<vis...@li...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 19, 2003 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues


> [Bruce]
> > I should indeed take a look at ScITE. I vaguely remember bouncing off it
a
> > long time ago, but I now forget why. Maybe it was Windows-only at that
> time?
>
> I am glad.
>
> Because after pledging not to hardsell it, I was going to relent - having
> thought about it some more - and pitch it a little more.
>
> I will discuss it as to PyGeo.
>
> What I think is important about the environment, as customized, is not
only
> what it has, but what it doesn't have.  I have been doing Python for some
> time, and have never used a class browser, formal debugger, etc.  Simply
was
> inconsistent with how I approached the learning curve, and what felt
natural
> to me specifically as it concerns Python.
>
> Having superfluous features in the environment I think makes it feel
> foreign.  And one is not sure as to what features one should or should not
> be exploring.
>
> The features you describe you are focusing one for your students, are the
> same features I have wanted and accessed as a user -  and essentially only
> those.  And I have gotten pretty far with them.
>
> A very focused environment, uncluttered is the ideal, IMO.  And with some
> customization - more taking away unneeded features (e.g. the ability to
> syntax highlight REXX), than adding new ones  - one can be left with very
> much that.
>
> And in fact this kind of customization as an environment for specialized
> needs is exactly the niche ScITE is designed to fill.  And I think that is
> also important.  It is using ScITE/scintilla exactly as it designed to be
> used - not hacking at it.
>
> Art
>
>
>

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

To facilitate people trying out Arthur's ideas, I've put his distutils
machinery in the "contributed" section of http://vpython.org as a
pseudo-permanent place to find the machinery. There are two items there,
both with minor revisions by me (and labeled as such so that errors can be
ascribed to me rather than to Arthur!).

One of the files is just the setup.py program alone, and the other is a 3 MB
zip file containing all of the pieces other than Numeric (includes
idlefork). In particular, I added some stuff to provide the next/back/up
icons needed by the Visual docs, which they used to get from the Python doc
icons when the Visual docs were in the Python docs folder.

Arthur, as you come up with revisions or new ideas I'll be happy to post
them in the contributed section. I was stimulated to post things by a
request from a user for your files, due I think to the fleeting nature of
attachments (or their nonexistence for those readers who get the news as a
daily digest). On the other hand, you have your own web site and might
consider if you prefer putting test versions there. Whatever you like.

Bruce Sherwood

Re: [Visualpython-users] Installer issues

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

> I agree.  I mostly had Windows in mind when I made my comments, since
> it's the most widespread OS.  I think once you've crossed into the
> technical, "geeky" Unix/Linux domain, you're entitled to less
hand-holding.

But how do I sneak PyGeo into it? :)

Art

[Visualpython-users] Distutils metadata

[Arthur <ajs...@op...>]

Those with an interest in the installation and packaging thread that has
been undertaken here might want to check out the following feature of
Python2.3, now released in alpha 2 version.

From the "what's new":

a.. Package index and metadata for distutils. This is support of the Python
catalog, now open for business at python.org/pypi. (PEP 301)

Essentially this is the first step in what is hoped to be an online
cataloguing mechanism for Python moudles, extensions, and applications. The
mechanics seemed to just adding a line ow two to one's setup.py and using it
to "register" one's distribution.

IMO, another good reason for VPython to consider conversion to the distutils
methodolgies, ASAP.

Art