visualpython-users

[Visualpython-users] two directions

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

I just realized that there's a useful way of expressing the nature of the
conflicting views of needs and expectations of users. Arthur is
appropriately concerned about the needs and expectations of current Python
users who might consider adding the Visual module to their installation. I
have been concerned about the needs and expectations of nonusers of Python
(who are in many cases nonprogrammers) who are coming to Python (and even to
programming) for the first time. I can't begin to list all of the hidden
assumptions that are associated with thinking about these two opposite
directions of approach to VPython! A related way of capturing the two
directions is to say that the current Python user wants to add the Visual
module, not install VPython. "VPython" is a term that describes a bundle
that gets the newcomer to Python up and running and doing interesting things
quickly.

It was suggested that if I really wanted a simple installation I should have
bundled Python itself in with everything else, so that novices could do one
installation. As was asked, if two installers, why not three or more? If I
had seen how to make it one, I would have done it, because despite lots of
effort, even just two installations has caused problems (not frequent, but
annoying). Every additional installation will bring in its own chances for a
problem. In his "Brief History of Time," Stephen Hawking said that his
publisher told him that he would cut his readership in half by every
equation he included. He decided to include one equation and take the 50%
cut in audience.

On Windows, the current VPython installer uses Python registry entries to
find the PythonXX directory and install into it. Earlier installers merely
asked the user to install into the PythonXX directory, but many users didn't
and then couldn't figure out why nothing worked. Even with the
registry-based scheme I occasionally get reports from novices that they get
the message "can't find visual module". I've never been able to extract a
coherent statement of what went wrong, but if they uninstall and reinstall
they typically get it working, and I'm guessing that it has something to do
with where they installed Python. There's an echo here of a recent comment
by Guido in response to someone having a problem with Python when they chose
to install it somewhere other than in C:\PythonXX. His comment was basically
that they shouldn't have done that! So maybe there's something wrong with
Python itself with respect to location on Windows.

I'm hopeful that through the use of distutils we can make things good for
both approaches, either with appropriate interactions with the user in the
installation process or by providing two different packages.

Bruce Sherwood

[Visualpython-users] idlefork

[Gary P. <pa...@in...>]

The recent discussion about idlefork and SciTE reminded me that I don't use
idlefork, but I didn't remember why.  Now I remember. It doesn't work for
me.  (Win98, here)  After running a visual script once or twice it crashes
with a dialog box about a page fault.  The dialog box won't close, and won't
go away.  Gotta restart Windows.  I tried the alpha on SF, but that doesn't
work either.  For that one, after closing the visual window I get a dialog
telling my that vpython is still running, do I want to kill it?  Yes, but it
won't die.  At least this time I can use the Close Program dialog to wipe it
out.  Any clues about that?

So I'm using my fave texteditor, NoteTab Pro, and keeping a DOS window open.
Works fine, but no syntax highlighting.  Bells and whistles are possible,
but I'd have to figure out the editor's macro language to customize for
python.  I tried SciTE, and that seems to work.

-Gary

Re: [Visualpython-users] idlefork

[Bruce S. <bas...@un...>]

With hundreds of student users and many others including myself I've not
seen the problem you report, at least using the idlefork version distributed
with VPython. Sounds idiosyncratic to your installation, somehow. No clue
what the problem could be.

The very severe problems you describe in the recent alpha distribution of
idlefork are being worked on intensely.

Bruce Sherwood

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Pajer" <pa...@in...>
To: "vpusers" <vis...@li...>
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: [Visualpython-users] idlefork


> The recent discussion about idlefork and SciTE reminded me that I don't
use
> idlefork, but I didn't remember why.  Now I remember. It doesn't work for
> me.  (Win98, here)  After running a visual script once or twice it crashes
> with a dialog box about a page fault.  The dialog box won't close, and
won't
> go away.  Gotta restart Windows.  I tried the alpha on SF, but that
doesn't
> work either.  For that one, after closing the visual window I get a dialog
> telling my that vpython is still running, do I want to kill it?  Yes, but
it
> won't die.  At least this time I can use the Close Program dialog to wipe
it
> out.  Any clues about that?
>
> So I'm using my fave texteditor, NoteTab Pro, and keeping a DOS window
open.
> Works fine, but no syntax highlighting.  Bells and whistles are possible,
> but I'd have to figure out the editor's macro language to customize for
> python.  I tried SciTE, and that seems to work.
>
> -Gary
>
>
>
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