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Re: [Visualpython-users] Python 2.5
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From: Bruce S. <Bru...@nc...> - 2006-10-06 20:43:29
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Many thanks for your initiative, Art. While I intend to get back to working on Visual after November 1 (the deadline for sending our publisher the second edition of our physics textbook), I can't do anything now, and I'm not at all confident of my abilities to replace Visual dependencies on Numeric/Numarray by suitable connections to Numpy. At the very least, I could sure use help. There are two rather different routes toward supporting Visual on Python 2.5. The better route is to work with Visual 4, since that's what we all want to use, given its greatly enhanced graphics capabilities. However, if changing to Numpy doesn't require much effort (I have no idea), it would be good to put that into Visual 3, because there are some serious problems with Visual 4, the most worrisome being the following (extracted from summary in Recent Developments section of vpython.org): 1) Mouse interactions on Windows, including scene.mouse.getclick(), are associated with crashes. A tight loop without a rate() statement may crash or be hard to kill. 2) Some animations run in a jerky manner due to slow rendering of the scene. The program gas.py is an example. The issue may be that the detail level on spheres needs to be decreased. 3) Graphing (from visual.graph import *) works well for many simple uses, but if the axes must be continually adjusted it can be very slow. If you know the extent of your variables and can specify xmax and ymax for the graph, the graphing is very fast. I feel competent to deal with 3) and probably with 2) if it is just a matter of reducing the level of detail. But I don't feel competent to track down and fix problem 1), which might well involve tricky multithread issues. (For the graphing issue it is necessary to do some work analogous to some coding I've already experimented with, having to do with supporting different scale factors in x and y.) And there's the long-standing issue of finding someone to write a Mac version of the platform-specific files in Visual that handle creating a window and handling mouse and keyset events, so that there could be a Mac-native version of VPython, not dependent on running X11 and fink and difficult opaque installs. Hugh Fisher in Australia indicated recently that he might be able to get free to do this in the near future. If we could get over the hump of having a usable Visual 4 for Windows and Mac (as far as I know it works fine on Linux), perhaps we would attract some new developers who could contribute, because Visual 4 comes much closer to offering "professional-grade" graphics likely to interest people in the graphics area. I should thank the National Science Foundation for supporting VPython for several years, but that grant just ended (last week!). I'm personally committed to continued support of VPython, but a community effort is needed to move forward. Again, thanks much, Art. Bruce Sherwood ajs...@op... wrote: >I have began to look at this as well, at least for the 3.xxx tree. I don't know >to what extent things are different for 4.xxx. > >For 3.xxx, I don't think that the Numeric to Numpy script solves the issue >because the integration with Numeric is via the boost.python library. > >>From what I see there is another 3rd party code module that is used to >enhance the boost.python support for Numeric and Numarray. > >The good news that there has been a new release of this module quite >recently specifcally shifting its focus to Numpy. I have the details on my >Linux box at home. > >Is this in line with others' understanding? > >I am not much of a C++ programmer, but this is something I might be able >to get to the bottom of with some work. > >But with Jonathan gone, I am suggesting that the vpython project >should reach out to the wider Python community. > >I think that the vpython project is (or should be) significant enough to >that community as a whole - it certainly is to me - that the project should >be able to elicit support from appropriate quarters. > >I would be happy to help try to elicit assitance on this with some >consensus that doing so is appopriate. > >I am copying this to the Python edu-sig list, where I had just >raised the issue of Numopy incompatible this morning, and expressed >some concern - with Bruce tied-up, and Jonathan gone - of getting >the issue proper attention. > > >Art > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Gary Pajer >Date: Friday, October 6, 2006 2:55 pm >Subject: Re: [Visualpython-users] Python 2.5 >To: vpusers > > > >>Bruce Sherwood wrote: >> >> >> >>>Questions have been asked about Visual for Python 2.5. A >>> >>> >>significant >> >> >>>hurdle to overcome is that there is not and will not be a >>> >>> >>version of >> >> >>>Numeric for Python 2.5 (the last to be made was for Python >>> >>> >>2.4). Its >> >> >>>successor Numarray does exist for Python 2.5 but is likely to >>> >>> >>be the >> >> >>>last, as the download instructions say "Use Numpy!" Thanks to >>> >>> >>Jonathan >> >> >>>Brandmeyer's work, Visual can be compiled for Numarray, but >>> >>> >>some >> >> >>>existing VPython programs that used explicit Numeric >>> >>> >>capabilities may >> >> >>>break due to some incompatibilities between Numeric and Numarray. >>> >>>The right thing to do is to revise Visual to use Numpy, which >>> >>> >>is the >> >> >>>designated to-be-supported replacement for both Numeric and >>> >>> >>Numarray. I >> >> >>>do not know how much work will be required to do this. >>> >>>Bruce Sherwood >>> >>> >>> >>I seem to recall that a Numeric-to-Numpy script was once available. >>I don't know its current status. >>I also don't know if it would work with vpython. >> >>I'm pretty busy right now, but I'll guess that Bruce is busier. >>This weekend I'll try to find some time to dig a little deeper >>into this >>problem. >> >>-gary >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------- >>-------- >>Take Surveys. Earn Cash. 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