RE: [Unityca-announce] Termination

[Chip S. <ch...@sh...>]

I fully agree.  As one of the non-technical people, there is a lot I can
do, but unfortunately coding isn't my strong suit.
=20
If we had small, interim steps that people could see a roadmap, vision
and progress, that would probably allow others to jump in where they
could.  there are two ways to go about a project like this, one is to
have a perfect product, engineered to death, and miss the market.  The
other is to introduce a basic, limited, maybe even barely functional
product, but get interest from both users and coders that can help.
=20
MY opinion, is that the latter is more effective.  If we could create
something quick and dirty, that may WORK but isn't elegant, and put it
on a website for others to experiment with, that would create interest
and excitement both within our group as well as draw more and more
people in to help the project.
=20
I understand much of what Christian originally wrote may be hard coded,
but wouldn't it be easier to get something JUST WORKING from this code
base, then say things like, "we need the interface for module xyz
modified to handle abc", then use our "experimental" site to implement
and test the improvements?
=20
It may take a while, but eventually, the project will creep to where we
want it to be, then we roll to version 1.0 and make another
announcement.
=20
Anyway, that's my $.02
=20
Chip

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Butler [mailto:ad...@ad...]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 6:50 AM
To: Christian Barmala
Cc: uni...@li...
Subject: Re: [Unityca-announce] Termination


I think this is an unfortunate response...  Personally, I have looked
thru the documentation on the site and wondered exactly what "todo list"
was being discussed...  But then there was no real discussion, just
requests/demands that I select something on a list (I couldn't find) and
take complete ownership of said item...

Perhaps, before abandoning the project so quickly, Christian, you could
recognize that there are a lot of documents, RFCs, "architectures,"
etc., and it's difficult for those of us who didn't write some or all of
these documents to know immediately what is being asked of us when you
refer to one part of one specific document that (apparently) I haven't
read...and I swear I read them all (and emailed you my comments!) not so
long ago!

Please don't take this as an insult or complaint.  Instead, recognize it
for what it is: I am (apparently) quite ignorant as to what you want of
us, and so I understand why you're frustrated (because, being ignorant,
I probably have NOT done what you've asked for) but I also think I can
see room for some understanding on your part.  How are we to "take up
the reigns" and commit to parts of this project when there is no real
roadmap for doing so...?

Yes, yes -- I recognize that there is indeed a "roadmap" document, as
well as an "architecture" document, plus goodness knows what else--and
apparently there is even some code in the CVS repositiory.  But as
you've said yourself, the majority of people on this list (and the
majority who have agreed to help) are either *not* entirely technically
focused, or have entirely other motivations altogether (such as policy
making, or technical writing...coming up with web sites and/or
instructions for end-users, etc.). =20

And of the technically-minded folk, you have more than a few who have
said things like "I just got PHP installed and I bought a book on it --
give me a bit of time to learn how it works."

These people are not worthless, nor are they lazy--far from it!  WHen
people are willing to pick up a book and learn an entirely new language
just so they can jump on-board with our project, that's significant
(imho) and not something we should just ignore in our frustrations that
they weren't  100% ready to start coding on Day 1. =20

Some of these people just need direction.  Perhaps a little
"higher-level" *and* "lower-level" direction is required here. =20

When I started this project, initiated all the forums and mailing lists,
etc., I really envisioned (perhaps incorrectly?) that we would use this
forum to *discuss* what needed to be done on both a high level (e.g.
"our code can issue certificates, but we want it to also do X, Y, Z")
and a low level (e.g. "those of you working on module foo.php, are you
running into parsing errors with function bar()?") -- but the discussion
list (and the forums, for that matter) has remained fairly silent.

The only discussions that seem to have thrived here are when we *did*
get into technical or policy-related talks, such as the one related to
language and UTF-8 not so long ago.  (Not surprisingly, this is the
*exact* type of discussion that thrived on CAcert's mailing list...
Discussions of "should we do X or Y?" and "how do we fix this problem?"
often resulted in multiple emails explaining the benefits of one thing
or another, or even code samples!)

Instead, we seem to be (perhaps unintentionally) using this forum to
complain about how people aren't using this forum to our liking.  By
repeatedly telling people that they haven't jumped on board, that they
haven't taken ownership for an item on a to-do list (which I don't think
was published on this list, because I'm looking at the archives now and
I don't see it) ---well, we're not accomplishing much.

But rather than abandon ship, perhaps we should just abandon this
current methodology?  Maybe we should suggest specific things that need
to be done, discuss them in a modular fashion (focusing on a part at a
time) and having both high level discussions (so the policy-minded folks
can have a say) and low-level discussions (so the coders can be involved
and keep us grounded in what is "doable" and what is not, ask questions
about this and that, etc.).

In essence, I wonder if we couldn't use this forum more effectively if
we simply started asking a few questions about how X, Y, Z should be
done---get the ball rolling (in any direction, whether it be high level
or low level), and get people engaged with the discussion.

It seems unrealistic to just announce a new project and get all kinds of
interest from all kinds of people immediately -- but we did!!  So our
project idea must be appealing in some form or fashion to the folks
involved.  With that in mind, maybe we shouldn't be asking "what's wrong
with these folks, why won't they just work on this now?" and instead,
maybe we should wonder how we managed to take all of these interested
folks and deflate their excitement so completely (and quickly)?

This *is* an exciting project.  None of us would be here if we didn't
think it was important, groundbreaking, and necessary work.  So we have
the foundation of a good group of people who want to see this thing
succeed -- my question is then (not just to Christian, but to everyone)
what do we need to do to get this ball rolling? =20

Do we need an outline of some sort?  (God knows I'd love a step-by-step
list of what we need to do to "get started" so I could better understand
where the hell we are and what we need to do...  Anyone else?)  Do we
need to take some of the documents (which christian spent a LOT of time
on and are VERY valuable) and distill them down into something a bit
more short-term...?  Perhaps if we had reasonable goals ahead of us,
tasks that could be completed in days or weeks instead of months...  I
don't know.

It's up to you guys.  Let's hear some voices here.  I admit to being
silent a bit (because I didn't want to show my ignorance in that UTF-8
discusssion!) but I want this project to succeed as much as the rest of
us...  So what is holding us back?

Leadership?  A good plan?  A more specific, but shorter-term roadmap?  A
list of modules, what we want them to do, and what their statuses are?

What would allow YOU (whether you're a tech writer, a web designer, or a
coder) to start contributing in the way you first imagined?  What's
holding you back? =20

Let us know, and maybe we can remove some of those obstacles -- rather
than just cursing the darkness, perhaps we can turn on a light or two.
:)

Thanks for all of you, your thoughts/suggestions up to now, and your
willingness to move forward.  We can do this, and we want to help make
it happen, but we need your help to shape the direction we move in.

I look forward to hearing from you--as I'm sure Christian does, too.

Thanks,

Adam

Christian Barmala wrote:


Hi,



When I asked you, who is interested in this project, several project
members

didn't reply at all. From those who replied, the majority explained,
that

they currently have no time to support the project. From those who had
time,

the majority explained that they were not programmers. Those who
remained,

subscribed to the developers list but until now, nobody volunteered for
any

of the @todos of the software.



This sad calculation reminds me to the difference between the topmost
line

of my salary slip and what remains in my bank account after all payments

have been deduced. I understand that this loss seems to be a rule of
life,

but then let's be honest and admit that we aren't able to run a project.



I therefore consider the cooperation for software development as failed.

I'll withdraw from Unityca and do the development on my own based on my
own

needs. If you should continue with Unityca one day and extend my
software to

fit your needs, you may do this on your own, based on the GPL license.



This is sad, but still better than pretending to cooperate and thus
raise

mutual expectations, which won't be fulfilled.



Christian







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