Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[Albert Cahalan <acahalan@gm...>]

On 12/16/06, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 02:22:28PM -0500, Albert Cahalan wrote:

> > You can color over it, then write new text.
> >
> > Anything else would be too complicated for the little ones.
>
> It really is one of the #1 requested features, though.  I'm not sure why,
> exactly.  It's always from school settings, of course.

It would be good to find out a lot more about the usage case.
Some random mostly-wrong guesses, one of which may be right:

a. Teachers can not resist correcting bad spelling or math, and
    can not stand to let it be.

b. They really want a story+picture program, half word processor.
    Normal business software handles this by letting users embed
    objects into a word processing document. We can imagine a
    Tux Word program that allows this, possibly even starting up
    Tux Paint when the user clicks on an image.

c. They really want something more like a CAD program.

> > Consider changing the background after something has been drawn.
> > Go from white to black. How????
>
> Wow, I had never considered that.
> Of course, I see it from this standpoint: why would you draw fish on
> a reef, and then suddenly decide you want the skyline behind the fish...?

Maybe the reef's front overlay starts to get in the way. Maybe you
realize that goldfish don't like salt water. Maybe it's the reef that was
forgotten, and you drew the fish on plain white by mistake.

> > I really wonder what these people do.
> >
> > Do they save to floppies? Have they found floppies to be tolerant
> > of being taken to the gym, cafeteria, bus stop, etc.? Do the drives
> > work fine after reading potato chips? When the floppies go bad,
> > do the kids cry?
> >
> > Are the kids running with admin rights? Are they the ones who
> > keep the computers operating?
>
> *shrug*  I really don't understand why people use networked logons and
> then have everyone share.  But, I guess when you're dealing with hundreds
> of Kindergarteners, a population which itself changes year-by-year, if you
> have very little IT support, you don't want to go into the business of
> user account management...?

So what is the expectation? Is it indeed the floppy disk?
It seems they want access control... without doing access control!

Maybe they'd like Tux Paint to use CD-RW media and write
out an index.html file.

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[Bill Kendrick <nbs@so...>]

Petre S. was kind enough to forward a post by John to the K12OSN list
that does a short pro/con comparison of Tux Paint to the commerical
product that everyone compares Tux Paint to:  Kid Pix.

(Note: There seem to be numerous versions of Kid Pix out there, and, in fact,
it seems like two versions created by two companies, for OSX.  I'm not sure
which version of Tux Paint (I assume latest) is being compared to which
version of Kid Pix.)

I'm sending my reply back to Petre, as well as to the K12OSN list
(to which I am not currently subscribed, but hopefully a moderator will be
kind...), as well as to the 'tuxpaint-devel' mailing list.


On Thu, Dec 14, 2006 at 01:07:35PM -0600, Petre Scheie wrote:
> Bill-
> This message appeared on the K12LTSP mailing list, which you're no longer 
> on as I recall.  Just FYI.

Thanks again, Petre.


> Petre Scheie
> K12LTSP-er and TuxPaint enthusiast
> 
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	[K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective
> Date: 	Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:51:26 -0800
> From: 	john
> Reply-To: 	Support list for open source software in schools.
> <k12osn@...>
> To: 	Support list for open source software in schools. <k12osn@...>
> 
> 
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> One of our teachers took the time to do a side by side comparison of
> TuxPaint and KidPix. I thought it was well done, and I thought I would
> pass it along. If anyone can help me locate resources that would
> answer/fix some of the criticisms she had I'd be interested. We just
> might have a convert if I could help her along.

Thanks so much, John!  Presumably, Tux Paint's $0 price point is also
helpful.  (Kids can bring it home with them, without any worries about
piracy.  Cross-platform support is helpful, too!)


> The Teacher says:
> 
> "here are a few different things in Tux Paint that KidPix doesn't have
> that are nice: The magic function (but it selects outside the area you
> want to edit sometimes, i.e.. lighten/darken)   Realistic stamps -
> stamps have more size options (but no index, have to scroll through
> everything) The undo function goes back more than one step (nice!) Slide
> show easy to set up, but can't save it.

I've been curious as to how a 'saved slideshow' would work.  One way I've
imagined is to create an animated GIF out of the various PNGs, but then
I'm not sure how or if we'd want to be able to load the _GIF_ back up for
playback in Tux Paint.

(And, if MNG were more mature and commonly supported, I'd be suggesting
that format, rather than GIF.)


> "There are some things [TuxPaint] doesn't have [that KidPix does] that
> are useful:
> 
> - Text is not reselectable/movable once you switch to a different
> function


I'm assuming text in Kid Pix lives in its own, un-touchable world.
In Tux Paint, you can type some text, then draw over it, apply magic
effects to it, etc.  It simply /becomes/ part of the picture, just
as a line, square, stamp or rainbow would.


> No backgrounds to select (KidPix has a lot)

Do Tux Paint's "starters" not cover this?  (e.g., the reef, skyline, etc.)
I know there aren't so many, yet...


> - Not as many characters to select - for illustrating a story (would
> like more in KidPix even)

Characters?  I assume you're talking about Tux the Penguin?  If so, I
certainly would love more 'people' to put into Tux Paint.  They could even
come with clothes/costumes as separate stamps, so you could paste
'generic guy' or 'generic gal' on the picture, and then turn them into
police officers, clowns, football players, etc., by stamping on top of them.


> - Not as many colors to select to use;

This can be altered, although not in a user-friendly GUI way.
See the OPTIONS documentation:

  http://www.tuxpaint.org/docs/html/OPTIONS.html

(Search in that page for the keyword "colorfile".)


Here's an example file which reproduces the colors that Tux Paint currently
comes with:  http://www.tuxpaint.org/docs/default_colors.txt

This is a new feature, and still kind of experimental, admittedly...


> no texture to select within each color

This would, I suppose, be like the 'pattern' option in The Gimp.
(e.g., draw with a repeating texture, rather than a solid color.)
Duly noted. :)


> - Kids can't save to their [own] file - every station would have
> everyone's art - and can be deleted by anyone

Ah, but you can.  Along with Tux Paint Config and/or editing the
configuration text file by hand, there is a simply little GUI solution for
this that's admittedly not very mature, but should do the trick.

See:  ftp://ftp.tuxpaint.org/unix/x/tuxpaint/savedir/
 

Also, how well Tux Paint works out-of-the-box depends on how bizarrely
the network/logins are set up.  Seems to be that "everyone shares the
same account" craziness is the rule, rather than the acception.
(No offense intended, sorry. ;^) )


> - There isn't an import option to bring in pictures saved from the
> internet or a digital camera.

Files can be dropped into Tux Paint's "saved" folder, and it can load
various formats (PNG, JPEG, BMP) from the 'Open' screen.


> To sum up:
> 
> "I see Tux Paint as a fun alternative in creating some computer art.  It
> doesn't have the file management capabilities KidPix offers, or some of
> it's artistic options. "
> 
> I am downloading TuxPaint on my workstation and I'll see if I can figure
> out how to do some of the things that our teacher wants kids to do.
> Perhaps you all have some ideas or resources I could pass along?

The tuxpaint-users mailing list is a good start.  Checking over the
documentation (FAQ, OPTIONS, etc.) can be helpful, too.

And, as you've learned... just ask!  I'm happy to help!  (A little time
constrained lately, tho.  http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/bill/photos/wrk/ )

Thanks and take care!


*WHEW*

-- 
-bill!
bill@...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[Mark K. Kim <mkkim214@gm...>]

On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 12:28:43PM -0800, Bill Kendrick wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 02:22:28PM -0500, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> > See? People DO like actual photos. Cartoons are yucky.
> 
> Heh, I never argued with that.  I don't _mind_ cartoons, but I think kids
> are generally more excited about _real_ things.

I've had talks with people in the toy industry about this (which once
included myself.)  The consensus seems to be that the western kids
prefer realistic imagery over cartoonish imagery, whereas asian kids
prefer cartoonish imagery.

I think a good example of it is Street Fighter II (a Japanese product)
vs. Mortal Kombat (an American product).  Street Figher II did quite
well in the U.S., but Mortal Kombat, with its later entrance into the
market (I think) and less-than-smooth fighting sequence, still did quite
well in the U.S. market.  I don't even remember hearing a mention of
Mortal Kombat in Japan or Korea, though that could be because I ran in
a different circle.

[re: editable text feature]
> It really is one of the #1 requested features, though.  I'm not sure why,
> exactly.  It's always from school settings, of course.

Probably because people like to change their text.  It's something I
wanted to do with paint programs when I was little, too.  Texts stand
out distinctictly as individual objects in my mind that I wish to
manipulate as I paint.  It wasn't until I discovered poligon drawing
programs on Mac and PC (which has text manipulation post-insertion) I
realized text manipulation ruins bitmap painting program's paradigm.

I'm all for it if the two paradigms can be merged.  I'm not sure if it's
possible in any simple, elegant manner, though.

> > Consider changing the background after something has been drawn.
> > Go from white to black. How????
> 
> Wow, I had never considered that.
> Of course, I see it from this standpoint: why would you draw fish on
> a reef, and then suddenly decide you want the skyline behind the fish...?

Maybe it's a flyfish... =p

I don't know.  Changing background seems reasonable enough thing to do.
But I think Bill is concerned more about the complexity of the program
getting too much for kids to handle easily, which I do agree with.

-Mark

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[<tore.jorgensen@at...>]

Mark K. Kim skrev:
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 12:28:43PM -0800, Bill Kendrick wrote:
>   
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 02:22:28PM -0500, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>>     
>>> Consider changing the background after something has been drawn.
>>> Go from white to black. How????
>>>       
>> Wow, I had never considered that.
>> Of course, I see it from this standpoint: why would you draw fish on
>> a reef, and then suddenly decide you want the skyline behind the fish...?
>>     
>
> Maybe it's a flyfish... =p
>
> I don't know.  Changing background seems reasonable enough thing to do.
> But I think Bill is concerned more about the complexity of the program
> getting too much for kids to handle easily, which I do agree with.
>   
I don't see a big reason to change the starter image. If you look at a 
old vacation images, it might look like changing the background is a big 
thing (mom and dad in front of famous building, mom and dad in front of 
famous bridge, ... ;-)
but when you create a picture, I don't think it is a normal action in 
most cases.

I think a more interesting feature would be to change which stamps are 
available, based on which starter image you choose. Underwater-image: 
fish, submarine, ... Street-picture: cars, people, bicycles, ...  
Space-picture:  ufo, astronaut, space ships, ...  Picture of your local 
school: teachers, pupils, ...

With such a feature, it would be possible to set up projects to work 
with themes, whitout your theme getting drowned among all the other 
stamps. For instance have a picture of your local park, and stamps with 
local flowers with a informative text description connected to them.

Kind regards,
Tore

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[Albert Cahalan <acahalan@gm...>]

On 12/16/06, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> (Note: There seem to be numerous versions of Kid Pix out there, and, in fact,
> it seems like two versions created by two companies, for OSX.  I'm not sure
> which version of Tux Paint (I assume latest) is being compared to which
> version of Kid Pix.)

Yeah, that's messed up. How can two competing companies
share the same product name?

> > "here are a few different things in Tux Paint that KidPix doesn't have
> > that are nice: The magic function (but it selects outside the area you
> > want to edit sometimes, i.e.. lighten/darken)

The problem here is that magic choices conflict with brush choices.
The magic can be divided into several categories: actions on the
whole image, actions on a small well-defined area (which would work
well with the brushes) and actions on a small ill-defined area.

Screen space is a serious concern.

There is also the need to resist adding complicated features. The UI
needs to remain workable for the 3-year-olds. At some point you just
have to say "use a grown-up program" or "use a special-purpose tool".

> > Realistic stamps -

See? People DO like actual photos. Cartoons are yucky.

> > stamps have more size options (but no index, have to scroll through
> > everything) The undo function goes back more than one step (nice!) Slide
> > show easy to set up, but can't save it.
>
> I've been curious as to how a 'saved slideshow' would work.  One way I've
> imagined is to create an animated GIF out of the various PNGs, but then
> I'm not sure how or if we'd want to be able to load the _GIF_ back up for
> playback in Tux Paint.

No way. This is terrible creeping complexity for little gain.

There are tools for slide shows: OpenOffice.org Impress

> > "There are some things [TuxPaint] doesn't have [that KidPix does] that
> > are useful:
> >
> > - Text is not reselectable/movable once you switch to a different
> > function

You can color over it, then write new text.

Anything else would be too complicated for the little ones.

> > No backgrounds to select (KidPix has a lot)
>
> Do Tux Paint's "starters" not cover this?  (e.g., the reef, skyline, etc.)
> I know there aren't so many, yet...

The starters look like saved images. This is confusing. There are
numerous other usability problems, some fundamental to the whole
idea of a background.

Consider changing the background after something has been drawn.
Go from white to black. How???? Can it be done without leaving ugly
white halos around every object? Remember, Tux Paint alpha blends
against the background. FYI this can be made to work, but it greatly
changes the CPU requirement. (or requires a complete rewrite to use
3D graphics hardware, which often doesn't have open source drivers)

> > - Not as many characters to select - for illustrating a story (would
> > like more in KidPix even)
>
> Characters?  I assume you're talking about Tux the Penguin?  If so, I
> certainly would love more 'people' to put into Tux Paint.

We seem to have lost a fireman.

Note: people with exposed flesh can easily turn into some nasty political
correctness problems. The typical result is one white woman and one
man of African ancestry going by whatever name is currently in fashion.
Outside the USA, there are places that take offence to any pictures of
women.

> They could even
> come with clothes/costumes as separate stamps, so you could paste
> 'generic guy' or 'generic gal' on the picture, and then turn them into
> police officers, clowns, football players, etc., by stamping on top of them.

It doesn't work all that well for the cop car.

> > no texture to select within each color
>
> This would, I suppose, be like the 'pattern' option in The Gimp.
> (e.g., draw with a repeating texture, rather than a solid color.)
> Duly noted. :)

There are animated brushes.

> > - Kids can't save to their [own] file - every station would have
> > everyone's art - and can be deleted by anyone
...
> Also, how well Tux Paint works out-of-the-box depends on how bizarrely
> the network/logins are set up.  Seems to be that "everyone shares the
> same account" craziness is the rule, rather than the acception.
> (No offense intended, sorry. ;^) )

I really wonder what these people do.

Do they save to floppies? Have they found floppies to be tolerant
of being taken to the gym, cafeteria, bus stop, etc.? Do the drives
work fine after reading potato chips? When the floppies go bad,
do the kids cry?

Are the kids running with admin rights? Are they the ones who
keep the computers operating?

Elementary schools don't hire good-quality full-time sysadmins.
Perhaps they ought to, but that doesn't fit the politics.

> > - There isn't an import option to bring in pictures saved from the
> > internet or a digital camera.
>
> Files can be dropped into Tux Paint's "saved" folder, and it can load
> various formats (PNG, JPEG, BMP) from the 'Open' screen.

Full filesystem browsing would be a big disaster.

Possibly the installer should allow using the "desktop" directory
as the "saved" folder.

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[<tore.jorgensen@at...>]

Albert Cahalan skrev:
> I really wonder what these people do.
>
> Do they save to floppies? Have they found floppies to be tolerant
> of being taken to the gym, cafeteria, bus stop, etc.? Do the drives
> work fine after reading potato chips? When the floppies go bad,
> do the kids cry?
>   
Reminds me of my days as a student (about 15 years ago when the 5 1/4" 
was still the standard).
Two cases I myself witnessed:
One person couldn't get his floppy to work. It had been in his backpack 
without its cover (not to mention without any hard box or book to 
protect it from being damaged), and he had actually managed to get 
butter on the exposed part of the disc!
Another person managed to put his floppy between the two floppy drives 
(in the narrow opening between the physical boxes) and couldn't get it 
out again.

You don't have to be a small child to get in trouble with floppies ;-)

Now they might use memory sticks which at least will survive a lot more 
than a floppy. A friend forgot to remove his memory stick from his 
pocket before putting his trousers into the washing machine, and the 
memory stick still worked after it was washed.

Kind regards,
Tore

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[Bill Kendrick <nbs@so...>]

On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 02:22:28PM -0500, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> 
> > > Realistic stamps -
> 
> See? People DO like actual photos. Cartoons are yucky.

Heh, I never argued with that.  I don't _mind_ cartoons, but I think kids
are generally more excited about _real_ things.  Things they can later try
to draw themselves.  Also, it's a lot easier for me to whip out my digital
camera and take a photo of a banana than it is for me to draw one... :^)


<snip>
> No way. This is terrible creeping complexity for little gain.

Yeah.  Really I want a Tux Toon app that can loaded TP imagery and let
you do stuff with them, add sound, etc. etc.

Sorry, newborn trumps that idea for the moment. :^)


<snip>
> You can color over it, then write new text.
> 
> Anything else would be too complicated for the little ones.

It really is one of the #1 requested features, though.  I'm not sure why,
exactly.  It's always from school settings, of course.


> The starters look like saved images. This is confusing. There are
> numerous other usability problems, some fundamental to the whole
> idea of a background.

Yes, I'd like to move Starters to their own display that comes up
when you hit "New", at some point.


> Consider changing the background after something has been drawn.
> Go from white to black. How????

Wow, I had never considered that.
Of course, I see it from this standpoint: why would you draw fish on
a reef, and then suddenly decide you want the skyline behind the fish...?

Perhaps I (we?) see Tux Paint more as virtual paper than others
(hence the stamps, etc. being 'applied' to the picture, rather than objects
that may be moved later.)


> > Characters?  I assume you're talking about Tux the Penguin?  If so, I
> > certainly would love more 'people' to put into Tux Paint.
> 
> We seem to have lost a fireman.

He's in my version, near the fire, explosion and lightning.


<snip>
> It doesn't work all that well for the cop car.

Good point, but the cop car is pretty small, and it's a little hard to tell
what the stamp is, or how to use it.

It's also really only good for that one stamp.  (I've considered using some
metadata to all stamps to be joined... e.g., the cop car stamp could be
linked to the car stamp...  to the user, it looks like its own stamp, when
in fact it's an amalgamation.  Any other vehicle emblem stamps we come up
with for the car could also share the car stamp.  Overkill, I'm guessing...)


> > > no texture to select within each color
> >
> > This would, I suppose, be like the 'pattern' option in The Gimp.
> > (e.g., draw with a repeating texture, rather than a solid color.)
> > Duly noted. :)
> 
> There are animated brushes.

It's not the same, but yes, there are animated brushes.

That raises a question... does Kid Pix have animated brushes?
I'm almost positive it doesn't have directional brushes.
It's kind of a silly feature for Tux Paint, and I've never seen it
elsewhere.  (Admittedly, my gfx app experience is with PaintShop Pro and Gimp)


> > Also, how well Tux Paint works out-of-the-box depends on how bizarrely
> > the network/logins are set up.  Seems to be that "everyone shares the
> > same account" craziness is the rule, rather than the acception.
> > (No offense intended, sorry. ;^) )
> 
> I really wonder what these people do.
> 
> Do they save to floppies? Have they found floppies to be tolerant
> of being taken to the gym, cafeteria, bus stop, etc.? Do the drives
> work fine after reading potato chips? When the floppies go bad,
> do the kids cry?
> 
> Are the kids running with admin rights? Are they the ones who
> keep the computers operating?

*shrug*  I really don't understand why people use networked logons and
then have everyone share.  But, I guess when you're dealing with hundreds
of Kindergarteners, a population which itself changes year-by-year, if you
have very little IT support, you don't want to go into the business of
user account management...?


<snip>
> Full filesystem browsing would be a big disaster.
> 
> Possibly the installer should allow using the "desktop" directory
> as the "saved" folder.

Nice.  And maybe have a small batch script that lives in the
Start->All Programs->Tux Paint that actually figures out where the
saved folder is, and launches a windows file explorer window there...?

-- 
-bill!
bill@...
http://www.newbreedsoftware.com/

Re: [Tuxpaint-devel] [Fwd: [K12OSN] TuxPaint 0.9.16 vs. KidPix a teachers perspective]

[Albert Cahalan <acahalan@gm...>]

On 12/16/06, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2006 at 02:22:28PM -0500, Albert Cahalan wrote:

> > You can color over it, then write new text.
> >
> > Anything else would be too complicated for the little ones.
>
> It really is one of the #1 requested features, though.  I'm not sure why,
> exactly.  It's always from school settings, of course.

It would be good to find out a lot more about the usage case.
Some random mostly-wrong guesses, one of which may be right:

a. Teachers can not resist correcting bad spelling or math, and
    can not stand to let it be.

b. They really want a story+picture program, half word processor.
    Normal business software handles this by letting users embed
    objects into a word processing document. We can imagine a
    Tux Word program that allows this, possibly even starting up
    Tux Paint when the user clicks on an image.

c. They really want something more like a CAD program.

> > Consider changing the background after something has been drawn.
> > Go from white to black. How????
>
> Wow, I had never considered that.
> Of course, I see it from this standpoint: why would you draw fish on
> a reef, and then suddenly decide you want the skyline behind the fish...?

Maybe the reef's front overlay starts to get in the way. Maybe you
realize that goldfish don't like salt water. Maybe it's the reef that was
forgotten, and you drew the fish on plain white by mistake.

> > I really wonder what these people do.
> >
> > Do they save to floppies? Have they found floppies to be tolerant
> > of being taken to the gym, cafeteria, bus stop, etc.? Do the drives
> > work fine after reading potato chips? When the floppies go bad,
> > do the kids cry?
> >
> > Are the kids running with admin rights? Are they the ones who
> > keep the computers operating?
>
> *shrug*  I really don't understand why people use networked logons and
> then have everyone share.  But, I guess when you're dealing with hundreds
> of Kindergarteners, a population which itself changes year-by-year, if you
> have very little IT support, you don't want to go into the business of
> user account management...?

So what is the expectation? Is it indeed the floppy disk?
It seems they want access control... without doing access control!

Maybe they'd like Tux Paint to use CD-RW media and write
out an index.html file.