tuxkart-devel

[TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[James G. <jam...@bt...>]

I'd like to try and implement split screen multiplayer, if that's OK
with other people?

The code to actually split the screen up is already there, so it's
basically just a matter of sorting out some controls (I hope). In the
future we need a config screen to setup controls, plus they'll need to
be saved to a file on game exit so it remembers your choices, but for
now they'll just be compiled in.

	James

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

James Gregory <jam...@bt...> writes:

> I'd like to try and implement split screen multiplayer, if that's OK
> with other people?

Might be a good idea to make the game restartable from ingame first.
Currently once you are on the race track you have no other choice than
to quit the game completly and start from scratch if you want to
change racetracks and such, which can be rather annoying.

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

Em Ter=E7a, 10 de Agosto de 2004 16:08, o James Gregory escreveu:
> On Tue, 2004-08-10 at 14:17, Ricardo Cruz wrote:
> >  Go ahead! I love multi player games!
> >
> >  Just want to say something about the controls. As Steve pointed in an
> > article (sorry, don't have a link), in multi-players games keys should
> > already be pre-configurated.
> >  I know this sounds like forcing the player, but it is better than the
> > player setup the keys and then they don't work, without understanding
> > why.
> >
> >  So, just want to ask the one that will make the control configuration =
to
> > make it in the same line as ClanBomber's one (sorry, didn't find a
> > screenshot), where the player can choose between: Gamepad 1 (2, 3... if
> > available), Keyboard cursors, Keyboard left part, Keyboard middle... and
> > mouse (if needed). Each "device" having an image.
>
> Huh? Don't have an option to setup keyboard controls? That's just silly,
> there are a number of reasons why you might not want to use the default
> setup:
>
> 1. You simply don't like the default setup . Maybe you've played so much
> Counterstrike you want to use some keys over on left of the keyboard for
> cursors.
>
 That's a good point, but the fact is that it is better to just let the pla=
yer=20
select from a few default key arrangements than let him choose himself, sin=
ce=20
it will eventually end up with a configuration that doesn't work.
 This gets really problematic with multi-player.

> 2. If you have just one player, you will probably want to use the
> cursors for movement, but some keys some distance away on the keyboard
> for fire, jump, etc (currently we use a,s,d,f). However, if there are 3
> or 4 people having to share the keyboard then there's no way you want
> player one using a,s,d,f, as someone is probably going to be using
> a,s,d,w as cursors.
>
 I guess you haven't heard of ghost keys... because it is actually due to 3=
=20
and 4 players that default key arrangements are needed.
 If they all play using the keyboard, most likely there will be problems wi=
th=20
the keys *.

> 3. Not all keyboards all over the world have the same key layout. Having
> an unchangeable setup is really going to upset people with, for
> instance, AZERTY keyboards. Although I'm not sure how common these are
> nowadays - I assume you're not using a QWERTZU keyboard, grumbel?
>
 Dunno how games solve this issue, maybe having different key arrangements =
for=20
different keyboards layouts.


* Please, read these articles to understand the issue:
http://sjbaker.org/steve/omniv/keyboards_are_evil.html (by Steve Baker - se=
ems=20
to be offline, at the moment)
http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_input.shtml#KeyboardGhosting

Cheers,
 Ricardo

> 	James
>

=2D-=20
I've read SEVEN MILLION books!!

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

Ricardo Cruz <ri...@ae...> writes:

>  That's a good point, but the fact is that it is better to just let
> the player select from a few default key arrangements than let him
> choose himself, since it will eventually end up with a configuration
> that doesn't work. This gets really problematic with multi-player.

People don't play multiplayer all the time, so it would just be damn
stupid to force them to some unconfortable layout.

>  I guess you haven't heard of ghost keys... because it is actually
> due to 3 and 4 players that default key arrangements are needed.

There is no way that you get 3 or 4 players, each with 6 keys, two of
them almost constantly pressed, working smoothly anyway, no matter if
you provide defaults or not.

> If they all play using the keyboard, most likely there will be
> problems with the keys *.

Yes, that is at is has been since the very early DOS days and it won't
go away even with more usefull choosen defaults keys. If people want
comfortable multiplayer, they have to buy a bunch of gamepads.

>> 3. Not all keyboards all over the world have the same key layout.
>> Having an unchangeable setup is really going to upset people with,
>> for instance, AZERTY keyboards. Although I'm not sure how common
>> these are nowadays - I assume you're not using a QWERTZU keyboard,
>> grumbel?

>  Dunno how games solve this issue, maybe having different key
> arrangements for different keyboards layouts.

There are two solutions:

a) use keysym instead of keyid, or however they are called, ie. the
first gives you the physical key on the keyboard that is pressed, the
second gives you the letter that it produces. Might work or not,
depending on your luck and the configuration on the users side.

b) Just provide a good config dialog, such as the one for zsnes, which
makes reconfiguring a joy, 5sec and a new joypad or the keyboard is up
and running perfectly.

-- 
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JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

Steve Baker wrote:

> Ricardo Cruz wrote:
>
>>  Go ahead! I love multi player games!
>>
>>  Just want to say something about the controls. As Steve pointed in 
>> an article (sorry, don't have a link), in multi-players games keys 
>> should already be pre-configurated.
>>  I know this sounds like forcing the player, but it is better than 
>> the player setup the keys and then they don't work, without 
>> understanding why.
>
>
> It might be possible to come up with several different key mappings 
> that work and
> give the player the option to choose between them...but it's quite 
> hard to find
> mappings that work for more than a couple of players.
>
> One thing that complicates matters is that some international 
> keyboards have
> different restrictions from US keyboards - also, some 'unusual' 
> keyboards like
> the more costly ergonomic ones have different restrictions.
>
> This is a VERY nasty problem. 


Maybe just restrict to a max of 1 or 2 players per keyboard (KEY1 & 
KEY2) requiring joypads or other devices for extra players.  Then the 
preselection becomes a bit easier (right?) since there can only be two 
players on at once.

- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Charles Goodwin wrote:

> Maybe just restrict to a max of 1 or 2 players per keyboard (KEY1 & 
> KEY2) requiring joypads or other devices for extra players.  Then the 
> preselection becomes a bit easier (right?) since there can only be two 
> players on at once.

Even with just one player, you can easily find key combinations that don't
work...a completely free choice of keys is really not possible in games
where keys are held down rather than just tapped briefly.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
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Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

Steve Baker wrote:

> Charles Goodwin wrote:
>
>> Maybe just restrict to a max of 1 or 2 players per keyboard (KEY1 & 
>> KEY2) requiring joypads or other devices for extra players.  Then the 
>> preselection becomes a bit easier (right?) since there can only be 
>> two players on at once.
>
>
> Even with just one player, you can easily find key combinations that 
> don't
> work...a completely free choice of keys is really not possible in games
> where keys are held down rather than just tapped briefly. 


Oh, I meant to say to give them a fixed choice like you suggested.

- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Ricardo C. <ri...@ae...>]

Em Quarta, 11 de Agosto de 2004 00:45, o Steve Baker escreveu:
> Charles Goodwin wrote:
> > Maybe just restrict to a max of 1 or 2 players per keyboard (KEY1 &
> > KEY2) requiring joypads or other devices for extra players.  Then the
> > preselection becomes a bit easier (right?) since there can only be two
> > players on at once.
>
> Even with just one player, you can easily find key combinations that don't
> work...a completely free choice of keys is really not possible in games
> where keys are held down rather than just tapped briefly.
>
 Steve is right. First time he mentioned this problem, I didn't really care 
about it. But since a SuperTux player told me that he couldn't jump and move 
at the same time and it was discovered it was because the keys he has used, I 
was urged to this problem.

 Anyway, I still think it is better to let the player choose the keys on a 
single player game, since it is not likely a problem might happen. But in a 
multi-player game - and especially a kart one, where you have to keep keys 
pressed -, it is just better to have default combinations.

 About Ingo bitching, players get used to keys combinations pretty fast and 
better this than having a broken control. Telling players to buy gamepads is 
not a solution either, IMHO.

Cheers,
 Ricardo

-- 
"The bad reputation UNIX has gotten is totally undeserved, laid on by people
who don't understand, who have not gotten in there and tried anything."
		-- Jim Joyce, owner of Jim Joyce's UNIX Bookstore

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[James G. <jam...@bt...>]

On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 18:42, Ricardo Cruz wrote:
> Em Quarta, 11 de Agosto de 2004 00:45, o Steve Baker escreveu:
> > Charles Goodwin wrote:
> > > Maybe just restrict to a max of 1 or 2 players per keyboard (KEY1 &
> > > KEY2) requiring joypads or other devices for extra players.  Then the
> > > preselection becomes a bit easier (right?) since there can only be two
> > > players on at once.
> >
> > Even with just one player, you can easily find key combinations that don't
> > work...a completely free choice of keys is really not possible in games
> > where keys are held down rather than just tapped briefly.
> >
>  Steve is right. First time he mentioned this problem, I didn't really care 
> about it. But since a SuperTux player told me that he couldn't jump and move 
> at the same time and it was discovered it was because the keys he has used, I 
> was urged to this problem.
> 
>  Anyway, I still think it is better to let the player choose the keys on a 
> single player game, since it is not likely a problem might happen. But in a 
> multi-player game - and especially a kart one, where you have to keep keys 
> pressed -, it is just better to have default combinations.
> 
>  About Ingo bitching, players get used to keys combinations pretty fast and 
> better this than having a broken control. Telling players to buy gamepads is 
> not a solution either, IMHO.
> 

I don't think forcing controls on a player is a solution, either.
Putting a link to Steve's page about why certain key combinations don't
work in the README might be a nice idea, but I don't like the idea of
forcing player 1 and player 2 to use awkward keys in an effort to make
3/4 player sharing of the keyboard easier when very few people are ever
going to share the keyboard between more than 2 people.

	James

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

James Gregory wrote:

> I don't think forcing controls on a player is a solution, either.
> Putting a link to Steve's page about why certain key combinations don't
> work in the README might be a nice idea, but I don't like the idea of
> forcing player 1 and player 2 to use awkward keys in an effort to make
> 3/4 player sharing of the keyboard easier when very few people are ever
> going to share the keyboard between more than 2 people.

I was suggesting that we come up with (say) 6 different alternative settings
for single player, (say) 3 different pairs of settings for two players and
just one set of settings for 3 or 4 players.

There are only so many conventions that programs have for this kind of thing
and for single player, we can provide all of the common conventions (eg Arrow
keys, number pad, A/S/W/Z, etc.  For two players, we can also come up with a
few sets of choices that'll work - but the more keys have to work together,
the fewer choices there are.

To get four people playing together - all using the keyboard - may actually
be impossible.

Allowing any set of choices - with some kind of an explanation in a README
file flat out won't work.  Players DON'T READ THE MANUAL.   Also, the rules
for what keys work together are pretty complex.  I doubt that many non-programmers
would understand them.

It's better to provide a few sets that work than leave people to flounder around
trying to find sets that work.

Either way, they can't have the exact set of keys they want - that's just not
possible in general.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Split screen multiplayer

[James G. <jam...@bt...>]

On Wed, 2004-08-11 at 22:48, Steve Baker wrote:
> James Gregory wrote:
> 
> > I don't think forcing controls on a player is a solution, either.
> > Putting a link to Steve's page about why certain key combinations don't
> > work in the README might be a nice idea, but I don't like the idea of
> > forcing player 1 and player 2 to use awkward keys in an effort to make
> > 3/4 player sharing of the keyboard easier when very few people are ever
> > going to share the keyboard between more than 2 people.
> 
> I was suggesting that we come up with (say) 6 different alternative settings
> for single player, (say) 3 different pairs of settings for two players and
> just one set of settings for 3 or 4 players.
> 
> There are only so many conventions that programs have for this kind of thing
> and for single player, we can provide all of the common conventions (eg Arrow
> keys, number pad, A/S/W/Z, etc.  For two players, we can also come up with a
> few sets of choices that'll work - but the more keys have to work together,
> the fewer choices there are.
> 
> To get four people playing together - all using the keyboard - may actually
> be impossible.
> 
> Allowing any set of choices - with some kind of an explanation in a README
> file flat out won't work.  Players DON'T READ THE MANUAL.   Also, the rules
> for what keys work together are pretty complex.  I doubt that many non-programmers
> would understand them.
> 
> It's better to provide a few sets that work than leave people to flounder around
> trying to find sets that work.
> 
> Either way, they can't have the exact set of keys they want - that's just not
> possible in general.

Well, OK. If anyone else wants to come up with some sets of keys that
work according to Steve's guide to the evilness of keyboards then they
can email them to this list I'll put them in.

	James