tuxkart-devel — TuxKart Developers.

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Pictures vanished from Wiki

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

Looks like this has been fixed already.

On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 23:12 +0200, Matze Braun wrote:
> Sorry for this. I accidently removed all wiki content while fixing the 
> login issues. And as it turned out the uploaded stuff wasn't included in 
> the backups you get in the admin interface :-((
> 
> On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Steve Baker wrote:
> > All of the images seem to have vanished from the Wiki pages!
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC this weekend?

[Caleb S. <gam...@gm...>]

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:45:10 -0500, Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> wrote:
> CROSS-POSTED FROM HAPPYPENGUIN:
> ===============================
> 
> Sepht wrote:
> 
>  > sbaker ill quote myself, we should have an IRC, and the ideal time for that would be
>  > Any irc meeting should be from 18:00 to 22:00 GMT on a weekend. (that would be 10am
>  > to 2pm PST, or 1pm to 5pm EST) just so that all timezones cna join.
> 
> Yeah - that sounds OK to me.  It'll certainly work for the N.America, S.America, Africa
> and Europe.   Do we have anyone from elsewhere on the planet?  Any Aussies maybe?


well I am a kiwi BTW sorry I have not been on in a while last week of
school so its now Holiday, will start work on some lvs in blender...

nice models from grumble....

> 
> Saturday or Sunday?  (Actually, for folk here in the USA, this is 4th July weekend - so
> they are likely to be neck-deep in relatives on Saturday - maybe Sunday is the best choice.)
> 
> I doubt we need 4 hours of formal discussions - let's put an agenda together, do an hour
> of optional intro's and chat at 18:00 GMT, and hold a formal meeting at 19:00 GMT and more
> informal chat after we get formal business out of the way.
> 
> Comments please?
> 
> Agenda Items Please?
> 
> ---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
> HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
> Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
>             http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
> V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 -
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> _______________________________________________
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> Tux...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
>

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Wiki problems.

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Matze Braun wrote:
> Sorry, there was another error for people that had a homepage created in 
> the old wiki. I now deleted the homepages and you have to recreate them. I 
> copied all the old texts here:
> 	http://netpanzer.berlios.de/tuxkart/index.php/OldUserPages
> 
> so you should be able to just copy&paste the old text in.

Yeah - that's fixed it - thanks!

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Wiki problems.

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Matze Braun wrote:

>>Could you also change the HTML title from 'TuxKart Home Page' to something like
>>'TuxKart Wiki'?  The home page is on SourceForge and having two things labelled
>>like that will confuse Googlers.   I'll put a link to the Wiki on the homepage.
> 
> Unfortunately that doesn't seem possible, as the first page the wiki 
> displays is always the "Home Page" :-/

So how about "Tuxkart's Wiki Home Page" ?

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Pictures vanished from Wiki

[Matze B. <ma...@br...>]

Sorry for this. I accidently removed all wiki content while fixing the 
login issues. And as it turned out the uploaded stuff wasn't included in 
the backups you get in the admin interface :-((
I hope you'll still have the images, I'll setup a more apropriate backup 
mechanism today.

Greetings,
	Matze

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Steve Baker wrote:

> All of the images seem to have vanished from the Wiki pages!
> 
> ---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
> HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
> Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
>             http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
> V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 - 
> digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches, 
> unmatched networking opportunities. Visit www.blackhat.com
> _______________________________________________
> Tuxkart-devel mailing list
> Tux...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
> 
> 

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC Meeting?

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes:

> Nobody replied (either here or on the HP forum) to the suggestion to
> hold an IRC meeting this weekend.
>
> I'm proposing 18:00 GMT on Sunday.

IRC Log of todays meeting:

Jul 04 19:50:46 <blacksheep>	hey there! looks like now it is almost 18:00 GMT
Jul 04 19:51:11 <blacksheep>	there will be a meeting, right?
Jul 04 19:52:52 <straver>	hopefully
Jul 04 19:53:08 <blacksheep>	straver: are you Steve?
Jul 04 19:53:23 <straver>	blacksheep: nope
Jul 04 19:53:41 <blacksheep>	is he here?
Jul 04 19:54:06 -->	IanWill (~willian@200.226.12.32) has joined #tuxkart
Jul 04 19:54:10 <straver>	don't think so  but I'm unsure
Jul 04 19:54:42 <straver>	what nick does he use?
Jul 04 19:55:01 <blacksheep>	his email is sjbaker, so his nick should be similar...
Jul 04 19:56:00 <blacksheep>	i have just started reading a few messages from the mailing list, and it looks like there was a nasty discussion regarding the fact that Steve is somewhat disliking the Gotm ideas
Jul 04 19:56:25 <blacksheep>	but i hope he will be here. i mean, it is his game, afterall
Jul 04 19:57:38 <straver>	but he seemed to think too few people had said yes to the IRC-meeting
Jul 04 19:57:39 <blacksheep>	sik0fewl: Ryan, is it you?
Jul 04 19:58:11 <blacksheep>	i said no, but i managed to come
Jul 04 19:58:49 <blacksheep>	anyway, something that suprised me is how many ppl are daily in #supertux, and so few in #tuxkart (and #pingus, when it was gotm)
Jul 04 19:59:08 <--	DarkStarter has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Jul 04 20:00:23 <blacksheep>	it is 18:05 GMT. what about starting the meeting?
Jul 04 20:00:26 <blacksheep>	grumbel: there?
Jul 04 20:00:44 <grumbel>	yep
Jul 04 20:01:00 <blacksheep>	all righty!
Jul 04 20:01:27 <blacksheep>	grumbel: i've seen some of your characters. what characters collections do you have in mind?
Jul 04 20:02:23 <grumbel>	around 8 characters
Jul 04 20:02:40 <grumbel>	basically a few small ones, a few medium ones and a few big ones
Jul 04 20:03:37 <blacksheep>	i meant really the type of characters. i noticed that you are using a few characters from SuperTux and even from open source projects
Jul 04 20:04:38 <grumbel>	everything that looks like a nifty animal would be ok
Jul 04 20:05:01 <grumbel>	so tux, yeti, eviltux, dino/mozilla, nolok
Jul 04 20:05:07 <grumbel>	we need some small ones
Jul 04 20:05:17 <blacksheep>	it looks like ppl are looking forward to see physics improved. Have you looked at ODE yet?
Jul 04 20:05:23 <grumbel>	iceblocks doesn't have many fans and I agree with that
Jul 04 20:05:38 <grumbel>	blacksheep: I consider ODE a bad choice for tuxkart
Jul 04 20:05:41 <blacksheep>	grumbel: yep, i was the one asking not to do it.
Jul 04 20:06:07 <grumbel>	ode is just too real, have a hard time imagining how it could be cut down to mariokart like physics while still providing some usefull service
Jul 04 20:06:09 -->	Maff (~mi...@cp...) has joined #tuxkart
Jul 04 20:06:27 <blacksheep>	well, i am pretty sure we can disable a few stuff from ODE. and tweak others to give a better playability and less realism
Jul 04 20:06:52 <blacksheep>	but i dunno, since i have not really looked at it
Jul 04 20:07:10 <grumbel>	the thing is that ode is great when you want to have boxes that bounce around, but for tuxkart I want that exactly not
Jul 04 20:07:21 <grumbel>	karts should stay flat on the road
Jul 04 20:07:32 <archpollux>	hey
Jul 04 20:07:50 <blacksheep>	we can use sliding and other stuff, without really making use of jumping stuff...
Jul 04 20:08:13 <blacksheep>	anyway, wouldn't jumping karts make sense when you collide with something at a big speed?
Jul 04 20:08:17 <grumbel>	other thing is that these jump-slides of mariokart, are really not realistic in any way
Jul 04 20:08:57 <grumbel>	blacksheep: not really, in mariokart they just 'rotate' a bit when they hit something at big speed
Jul 04 20:09:46 <blacksheep>	so, in your opinion, we should implement physics code into tuxkart, instead of using some lib like ODE?
Jul 04 20:09:57 <grumbel>	yep
Jul 04 20:10:28 <blacksheep>	moving on, GUI seems to be a pretty controvertial subject, since Steve would like to to keep it more or less the way it is. While other ppl would like to make it more like any other game menu
Jul 04 20:10:58 <grumbel>	looks like Steve is pretty alone with his gui opinion
Jul 04 20:11:13 <grumbel>	and I really don't get how he would even fit all those options in a single screen
Jul 04 20:11:19 <blacksheep>	it looks like to me that there are two extreme positions. One saying that options and all that stuff should be in only one menu, while others would prefer even menus with only a couple of entries
Jul 04 20:11:35 <grumbel>	there is just far to much that isn't shared across game modes, so you would need to hide all kinds of gui elements all the time
Jul 04 20:11:45 <grumbel>	wouldn't really be any easier than multiscreen gui
Jul 04 20:12:06 <blacksheep>	what about a more moderate it menu? Options in a menu, track/vehicle chosen in another, and so on
Jul 04 20:12:10 <grumbel>	http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/singlescreen.png
Jul 04 20:13:03 <grumbel>	track and vehicle must go on a seperate screen, suboptions (kart color, mirrored track, etc.) can of course go on the vehicle and track screens
Jul 04 20:13:40 <IanWill>	excuse me for jumping in ... separating options in basic and advanced/extra seems better
Jul 04 20:14:10 <IanWill>	basic are those most frequently tweaked, of course
Jul 04 20:14:10 <blacksheep>	IanWill: i don't think there are that many "advanced" stuff...
Jul 04 20:14:25 <blacksheep>	IanWill: what do you mean by Advanced?
Jul 04 20:14:40 <blacksheep>	i mean what kind of stuff would you considered to be Advanced?
Jul 04 20:14:44 <IanWill>	advanced or extra is stuff you won't change that much
Jul 04 20:15:01 <IanWill>	no need to call it advanced ::)
Jul 04 20:15:04 <grumbel>	there is also a bunch of stuff that you can do with the controlls, up/down for select the kart color, left/right to select the kart
Jul 04 20:15:06 <grumbel>	and such
Jul 04 20:15:13 <blacksheep>	this is not a race game where you can choose tyres and all that. so i am not really seeing advanced stuff
Jul 04 20:16:01 <blacksheep>	something that i would like to see more discussed (haven't seen so far) is game modes
Jul 04 20:16:01 <grumbel>	advanced stuff would really just be kart color and number of laps, mirror/reverse for track
Jul 04 20:16:12 <grumbel>	there really aren't that many options and there really shouldn't be
Jul 04 20:16:15 <IanWill>	I just mean separation options in those that you may want to change per race and those you set less frequently (like controls, network, sound)
Jul 04 20:16:20 <blacksheep>	i think this is what gives replay value to the game, so i found them important to the game
Jul 04 20:16:31 <blacksheep>	what kinda of game modes have you guys thinking of?
Jul 04 20:16:43 <archpollux>	blacksheep: there is ;) NFS Underground ;)
Jul 04 20:17:10 <archpollux>	blacksheep: oops, n/m, read that the wrong way :)
Jul 04 20:17:13 <basse_>	it's great, no matter what game it is, it's always the same people
Jul 04 20:17:19 <basse_>	we have to stop meeting like this
Jul 04 20:17:22 <archpollux>	it's a racing game..
Jul 04 20:17:50 <IanWill>	hey basse_ :)
Jul 04 20:18:10 <blacksheep>	anyway, is multi player supported in cvs?
Jul 04 20:18:18 <basse_>	hey hey..
Jul 04 20:18:39 <blacksheep>	there seems to be possible to view the computers playing... it is possible for another human to play?
Jul 04 20:19:04 <grumbel>	blacksheep: not yet
Jul 04 20:19:44 <blacksheep>	grumbel: just noticed that Mirror/Reverse option. that kinda of stuff would surely give replay to the game, but it should only be available for practise mode, right?
Jul 04 20:20:04 <grumbel>	btw: http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/tmp/yetifaces.jpg
Jul 04 20:20:31 <grumbel>	blacksheep: might be available in grandprix as well
Jul 04 20:20:35 <blacksheep>	grumbel: that guy really needs a big kart ;)
Jul 04 20:20:49 <grumbel>	at least mirror could be available everywhere
Jul 04 20:20:57 <grumbel>	reverse is much more difficult
Jul 04 20:21:45 <blacksheep>	just wondering, is anyone here that started to do coding?
Jul 04 20:21:49 <archpollux>	grumbel: hehe, that looks more like a monkey to me :)
Jul 04 20:22:03 <archpollux>	grumbel: but of course, i'm really not sure what Yeti should look like, anyway :)
Jul 04 20:22:23 <blacksheep>	archpollux: Yeti looks depends very much on the culture
Jul 04 20:22:41 <archpollux>	blacksheep: my culture doesn't include yeti ;))
Jul 04 20:22:42 <grumbel>	I guess yeti isn't to far away from a monkey, might even be some kind of gorilla, but nobody knows for sure :)
Jul 04 20:22:52 <blacksheep>	archpollux: lucky you :D
Jul 04 20:22:58 <grumbel>	archpollux: yeti is bigfoot in white
Jul 04 20:23:01 <archpollux>	hehe
Jul 04 20:23:04 <archpollux>	i know :)
Jul 04 20:23:31 <basse_>	grumbel: little mouth corner streching.. 
Jul 04 20:23:58 <archpollux>	maybe thicker lips
Jul 04 20:23:58 <blacksheep>	i have seen this great idea for AI in the mailing list that consists in using vectors that are applied to the sides of the track. Is this the way it is planned to go?
Jul 04 20:24:01 <grumbel>	yep, mouth needs work
Jul 04 20:24:31 <grumbel>	blacksheep: maybe, question would be how to generate those vector fields
Jul 04 20:25:12 <blacksheep>	speaking about that, is any Blender bridge planned?
Jul 04 20:25:30 <basse_>	grumbel: what do those different stages mean? sub-d levels? 
Jul 04 20:25:39 <blacksheep>	In my opinion, it is really needed, since most artists make use of it
Jul 04 20:25:40 <grumbel>	blacksheep: there is already an export script for tracks 
Jul 04 20:25:48 <archpollux>	blacksheep: somebody came up with a python script to .ac
Jul 04 20:25:51 <grumbel>	blacksheep: for karts the standard ac3d exporter of blender will do
Jul 04 20:26:18 <IanWill>	btw I wrote both ac3d import/export and the new tuxkart exporter
Jul 04 20:26:25 <blacksheep>	okay
Jul 04 20:26:28 <basse_>	how do you export animation cycles?
Jul 04 20:26:32 <archpollux>	IanWill: yeah, it was u :)
Jul 04 20:26:39 <grumbel>	basse_: lower sub-d and the really low poly are with decimator applied
Jul 04 20:26:41 <IanWill>	I'm here to offer help case there's something missing
Jul 04 20:26:49 <grumbel>	basse_: anim cycles arn't yet supported
Jul 04 20:27:07 <IanWill>	steve has a tool for animation in plib
Jul 04 20:27:10 <grumbel>	basse_: there has been some talk about using cal3d, which already has a blender exporter
Jul 04 20:27:18 <grumbel>	might allow to use bones and stuff directly
Jul 04 20:27:25 <IanWill>	you export lines for the skeleton, than animate with his program
Jul 04 20:27:26 <basse_>	bones would be great
Jul 04 20:27:42 <archpollux>	grumbel: that's a lib only, right?
Jul 04 20:27:54 <basse_>	was it ogre3d or what .. hmm, 3d engine, that alrady had some sort of blender support..
Jul 04 20:28:04 <archpollux>	basse_: yep, ogre3d
Jul 04 20:28:06 <grumbel>	archpollux: cal3d is a lib yep, matzb however said that it has a solid blender exporter
Jul 04 20:28:17 <archpollux>	grumbel: nice
Jul 04 20:28:39 <IanWill>	some engines have exporters from blender, neoengine, cs (no anim), etc
Jul 04 20:29:21 <basse_>	there's also the blender engine :)
Jul 04 20:29:53 <blacksheep>	grumbel: just noticed that one of the ODE uses would be for collision detection, as well. Aren't you afraid that creating a physic and collision detection engine would just be too much work?
Jul 04 20:30:36 <archpollux>	basse_: how does the blender engine work, though? how do u include animations in a game from it?
Jul 04 20:30:41 <grumbel>	blacksheep: I think plib already has some basic stuff for collission detection
Jul 04 20:30:53 <basse_>	archpollux: you do the whole game with it :)
Jul 04 20:31:04 <archpollux>	basse_: ah :) with python scripting? :)
Jul 04 20:31:29 <blacksheep>	grumbel: but it can't be very good, if you take in consideration the number of bugs regarding that
Jul 04 20:31:39 <basse_>	archpollux: yep.. and there are some building blocks too in the ui..
Jul 04 20:31:54 <archpollux>	basse_: yeah, figured... but i'm concerned about speed
Jul 04 20:31:56 <blacksheep>	the hole in the track bug and one you collide with a rect side
Jul 04 20:32:05 <basse_>	archpollux: blazing fast on my XP2800+ :)
Jul 04 20:32:18 <archpollux>	basse_: cool, i have the same cpu :)
Jul 04 20:32:33 <basse_>	actually, it's not that slow on lower end machines either..
Jul 04 20:32:49 <grumbel>	blacksheep: well, yes it needs work, but ODE doesn't come for free either
Jul 04 20:33:04 <grumbel>	blacksheep: and for plain collission detection there are already other libs
Jul 04 20:33:17 <blacksheep>	sounds reasonable
Jul 04 20:33:20 <IanWill>	the game engine is useful for testing tracks before exporting, it's easy to set up a basic racing game with it
Jul 04 20:33:44 <sik0fewl>	I think Matze is going to try out ODE, just to see if it works well in tuxkart
Jul 04 20:34:03 <straver>	another gui-proposal http://www.apollo.nu/~straver/temp/tuxkartmenu.jpeg
Jul 04 20:34:13 <blacksheep>	grumbel: you seem to have said that tracks shouldn't have many bonus/maluses. Is that right?
Jul 04 20:34:37 <IanWill>	collision detection is tricky, easy to miss a collision.  There are modelling tricks to help there (like making objects have some interior hidden faces) 
Jul 04 20:34:43 <grumbel>	straver: should the above buttons act as 'tabs'?
Jul 04 20:34:49 <straver>	yep
Jul 04 20:35:02 <blacksheep>	straver: i don't really like that much. Would prefer to see one where when you select Options, you would go for options and not using some kind of tabs system
Jul 04 20:35:35 <blacksheep>	it is confusing and not that usable
Jul 04 20:36:03 <archpollux>	i think tabs would work best
Jul 04 20:36:04 <sik0fewl>	and you can only have one kart selection at a time (shitty for multiplayer).
Jul 04 20:36:11 <straver>	blacksheep: I think it might give a better overlook
Jul 04 20:36:15 <sik0fewl>	tabs could work
Jul 04 20:36:33 <grumbel>	straver: wouldn't provide enough guidance I think, anyway, visualizing the current 'position' in the GUI would be ok, mariokart on GBA does that
Jul 04 20:37:06 <basse_>	what's the polycount on carts?
Jul 04 20:37:12 <basse_>	maximum
Jul 04 20:37:29 <grumbel>	basse_: at the moment I use ~3000
Jul 04 20:38:25 <basse_>	ok
Jul 04 20:40:09 <IanWill>	blacksheep: quickie about game modes, wrote this in 2000! for tuxkart: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=150186&forum_id=3712
Jul 04 20:40:20 <grumbel>	basse_: ever done any in-game 3d models (ie. non pre rendered)?
Jul 04 20:41:18 <grumbel>	IanWill: could you integrate that into the Wiki?
Jul 04 20:41:46 <blacksheep>	IanWill: give it a fast look. That idea of the looking for an object sounds pretty funny. About the battle mode, we need more bonues/maluses for it to work
Jul 04 20:42:29 <basse_>	grumbel: you mean low poly.. yes.. I've done some characters and objects..
Jul 04 20:42:53 <IanWill>	grumbel: maybe better to discuss a little about it in ml first, see  what looks ok for the current plans...
Jul 04 20:43:26 <grumbel>	basse_: how do you texture them? in blender or do you use a seperate uv-mapping tool?
Jul 04 20:44:28 <grumbel>	IanWill: wiki is still pretty much a collecting pod for ideas, just mark it as 'non-final'
Jul 04 20:46:12 <IanWill>	grumbel: I feel a little strange jumping in, I was to help with tuxkart since 4 years ago, exchanged *many* emails with Steve then got involved learning about programming / 2d/3d art and never finished a track
Jul 04 20:46:40 <sik0fewl>	herring should be replaced (or modified) to be more intuitive
Jul 04 20:46:46 <sik0fewl>	it's hard to remember what they are
Jul 04 20:46:49 <IanWill>	in fact I'm handling my time so badly that I don't believe 4 years have passed this fast
Jul 04 20:47:24 <IanWill>	a more cartoony and 3d fish would look much better
Jul 04 20:47:32 <sik0fewl>	yeah
Jul 04 20:47:33 <grumbel>	IanWill: wikis are meant to be edited, if people don't like stuff they just add comments and stuff :)
Jul 04 20:48:04 <straver>	sik0fewl: I get supprised everytime the green herring is bad.
Jul 04 20:48:07 <grumbel>	IanWill: problem with fish is that it would only be usefull for tux, neither for the karts nor for the other characters
Jul 04 20:48:17 <IanWill>	grumbel: ok, will clean that text a bit first then post it
Jul 04 20:48:17 <grumbel>	straver: I know that feeling :)
Jul 04 20:49:07 <sik0fewl>	straver: me too
Jul 04 20:49:07 <sik0fewl>	I like the silver/gold herring for filling up the meter
Jul 04 20:49:08 <sik0fewl>	to give more bonuses
Jul 04 20:49:15 <grumbel>	for bonus blocks I would suggest we do something similar to mariokart, pretty simple, plain and not to confusing
Jul 04 20:49:15 <--	stpere has quit ("Leaving")
Jul 04 20:49:18 <sik0fewl>	but I find the red/green herring realy confusing
Jul 04 20:49:39 <sik0fewl>	grumbel: I agree
Jul 04 20:50:03 <IanWill>	grumbel: it's just a "meta" item :), the herring, like the flower in mario.  A less realistic, flashier look will do to keep it, I guess.
Jul 04 20:50:08 <sik0fewl>	and maluses should look more like the bonuses (so players get them by mistake, ala mariokart)
Jul 04 20:51:12 <grumbel>	IanWill: the problem is that a herring doesn't contain anything, people don't expect to get something out of a fish
Jul 04 20:51:40 <straver>	perhaps the bonus could shift from good to bad look when you get close to them.
Jul 04 20:51:44 <grumbel>	IanWill: in mario you have coins and ?-blocks, both extremly generic items, which do exactly what you expect
Jul 04 20:51:48 <sik0fewl>	grumbel: yep. but I think we should keep silver/gold herring for the bonus meter
Jul 04 20:51:56 <IanWill>	they get used in a second, it's part of the game atmosphere
Jul 04 20:52:14 <grumbel>	straver: bad-bonuses that look like good ones should really be keep to an absolute minimum
Jul 04 20:52:36 <sik0fewl>	maluses shouldn't look exactly the same
Jul 04 20:52:44 <sik0fewl>	but you shouldn't be able to tell them apart until you get close
Jul 04 20:53:01 <straver>	sik0fewl: that was what I meant
Jul 04 20:53:13 <sik0fewl>	otherwise people will easily avoid them if they can see them from far away
Jul 04 20:53:36 <IanWill>	track design: you place them in places the player can fall easily
Jul 04 20:53:42 <grumbel>	currently green herrings are *WAY* overused in tuxkart
Jul 04 20:53:51 <IanWill>	like after a zipper, hard to avoid
Jul 04 20:54:03 <grumbel>	in mariokart those things are special items droped by enemies, they aren't all around on the track
Jul 04 20:54:26 <--	Si\ has quit ("Leaving")
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Jul 04 20:54:45 <sik0fewl>	yeah, I think they worked best in the mariokart fashion
Jul 04 20:54:59 <sik0fewl>	if they are part of the track they are still easy to avoid if you've played the track a couple times
Jul 04 20:55:32 <grumbel>	yep, and biggest problem with them is that they only give frustration, they provide nothing possitive
Jul 04 20:55:40 <IanWill>	well: if herrings are kept: player grabs, then mourns about it being rotten, then it becomes an item to be used against competitors, dropped when the owner feels like, like in mk
Jul 04 20:55:56 <sik0fewl>	grumbel: yep
Jul 04 20:56:02 <IanWill>	I mean: only after getting it it can become green
Jul 04 20:56:49 <blacksheep>	grumbel: just wondering, are you afraid that the Karts you are doing will not get recoginized by the player during the game, the way Steve is?
Jul 04 20:57:02 ---	Received a CTCP PING 2172982375 from quickflash_
Jul 04 20:57:11 <grumbel>	blacksheep: not at all
Jul 04 20:57:32 <straver>	IanWill: wouldn't that slow down the action?
Jul 04 20:57:37 <grumbel>	even if they would all look exactly the same, it wouldn't be much of a problem
Jul 04 20:58:14 <sik0fewl>	color is the biggest way to tell them apart (especially from a distance)
Jul 04 20:58:31 <IanWill>	straver: it just makes red herring work like those "?" boxes in mk 64: you don't  know what it will serve for until you grab it.
Jul 04 20:58:54 <--	Maff has quit ("Leaving")
Jul 04 20:59:06 <blacksheep>	grumbel: i don't agree with that last sentence. I mean, then you'd just need to make a kart and use it for all the others...
Jul 04 20:59:30 <grumbel>	blacksheep: exactly
Jul 04 20:59:48 <grumbel>	blacksheep: the point is that it completly unimportant for the game to differentiate them
Jul 04 21:00:13 <blacksheep>	as a player, i like to see different characters, even if they are AI players
Jul 04 21:00:44 <straver>	IanWill: thought you meant that you had to pick up a herring and wait for it to rotten before you can use it
Jul 04 21:00:53 <grumbel>	the only way you recognize the karts is like "the kart who just overtook me", not like mario, luigi or whatever
Jul 04 21:00:57 <basse_>	grumbel: i dont. I've only done blends
Jul 04 21:01:09 <basse_>	grumbel: sorry took a bit long to reply.. :) 
Jul 04 21:01:15 <grumbel>	having them look different is just a graphic, not a gameplay relevant thing
Jul 04 21:01:18 <IanWill>	it's even an option if you don't stick karts to racers: the player can choose both the driver and the kart to use (or win the kart after finishing cups or breaking pre-defined track times)
Jul 04 21:01:24 <grumbel>	unless of course we have special charater items
Jul 04 21:02:38 <basse_>	i have to say this, because I saw some screenshots and sketches.. and.. why do all linux opensource games have to have the same characters?
Jul 04 21:02:40 <grumbel>	basse_: same here, havn't done much uv-texturing either
Jul 04 21:02:44 <blacksheep>	IanWill: that sounds interesting, but might be tricky to implement, since models have different sizes and stuff
Jul 04 21:02:51 <IanWill>	grumbel: in mario they also use sound to identify who passed you: they shout at you.
Jul 04 21:02:57 <grumbel>	basse_: not all, just the ones with tux in its name :)
Jul 04 21:03:04 <basse_>	grumbel: heh
Jul 04 21:03:18 <grumbel>	basse_: basically we are just cloning mario, every single game with mario actually :)
Jul 04 21:03:20 <archpollux>	basse_: yeah, i'm pretty much tired of tux games
Jul 04 21:03:34 <IanWill>	blacksheep: surely, that's something to be decided early on
Jul 04 21:04:21 <grumbel>	archpollux: me too, however for fun-games, tux provides a pretty good basis
Jul 04 21:04:32 <basse_>	grumbel: uvmapping lowpoly characters is quite easy.  for highpoly, it's going to be easier soon.. :)
Jul 04 21:04:57 <blacksheep>	personally, i like the use of Tux. It is a pretty good game character. Of course, TuxKart should allow the choosing of other charatcers
Jul 04 21:05:33 <IanWill>	basse_: make a basic big-head racer and then players can map their faces to it ;) (ugh!)
Jul 04 21:05:35 <grumbel>	basse_: yep, have toyed a bit around with blender cvs, looks interesting. wings3d auto-uv is looks also damn cool, but doesn't seem to be 100% finished either
Jul 04 21:06:07 <blacksheep>	IanWill: if you think about it, it isn't not a bad idea at all. Would be cool for network games
Jul 04 21:06:13 <basse_>	grumbel: at least some (I'm not expert on wings so I dont know all that it has) of wings's uvtools are coming over to blender.
Jul 04 21:06:48 <IanWill>	blacksheep: it would surely look "fun" :)
Jul 04 21:06:49 <basse_>	IanWill: sounds great! :)
Jul 04 21:07:21 <basse_>	IanWill: like those roleplaying games. heh.. it's weird having own face among the elves and dwarves :)
Jul 04 21:07:28 <blacksheep>	IanWill: a really ugly guy would surely win all the races by scaring the other players :D
Jul 04 21:07:40 <IanWill>	people would ask for heavier ammo... shoot shoot!
Jul 04 21:08:48 <IanWill>	basse_: won't you put Suzanne in TuxKart ? ;)
Jul 04 21:08:50 <basse_>	instead of linux mascots, the charactesr could be famous actors, sean connery, marlon brando,  .. :)
Jul 04 21:09:26 <basse_>	IanWill: I tell you a little secret.. I hate suzanne.
Jul 04 21:09:57 <IanWill>	an important outcome of this effort on tk is getting good simple tools for people to add their own tracks and looks to the game (and others)
Jul 04 21:10:38 <IanWill>	basse_: heh, I get tired now and then, too, but then I see her showcasing some new good stuff like AO, etc.
Jul 04 21:10:38 <basse_>	IanWill: http://www.kimppu.org/basse/blender/2003/revenge_of_lego_figures.jpg
Jul 04 21:11:27 <IanWill>	haha amazing
Jul 04 21:13:12 <basse_>	:) suzanne gets what's coming to her.. 
Jul 04 21:13:43 <archpollux>	poor suzanne
Jul 04 21:13:57 <blacksheep>	who is that suzanne you are talking about?
Jul 04 21:14:08 <archpollux>	blender monkey :)
Jul 04 21:14:49 <blacksheep>	anything else worth of discussion?
Jul 04 21:14:59 <archpollux>	blacksheep: go in blender, press space, Add->Mesh->monkey
Jul 04 21:15:41 <IanWill>	what about discussing a little the current state of affairs?
Jul 04 21:16:00 <blacksheep>	archpollux: nice :)
Jul 04 21:16:05 <archpollux>	blacksheep: yeah :))
Jul 04 21:16:31 <IanWill>	I mean Steve vs GoTM voluntaries, is this risking the effort or are you guys ok?
Jul 04 21:16:34 <archpollux>	man, blender is so lightweight :)
Jul 04 21:17:04 <archpollux>	hehe... i think it's in Steve's character to be very stubborn :)
Jul 04 21:17:12 <IanWill>	getting artists and programmers to talk is tricky always
Jul 04 21:17:16 <IanWill>	ego fights
Jul 04 21:17:48 <IanWill>	I've been involved with both sides online for a few years, trying to help find ways for better open source game art
Jul 04 21:17:49 <basse_>	and different language
Jul 04 21:17:59 <IanWill>	yep, basse_ 
Jul 04 21:18:43 <basse_>	IanWill: the main problem with opensource game art is, that it's mostly non organized group effort.
Jul 04 21:19:06 <IanWill>	yes, the tools are getting good, but more than that is needed.
Jul 04 21:19:34 <basse_>	i've seen projects, whre lot of people have contributed graphics, and it ended up a mess.. (freecraft)
Jul 04 21:19:36 <IanWill>	One thing: producing art is tiresome, you gotta *love* games to accept the effort
Jul 04 21:20:21 <IanWill>	it's much funner to get involved with rendering and animations, usually (always new stuff, no one telling you what to do, etc)
Jul 04 21:20:25 <--	SpoonMeiser has quit ()
Jul 04 21:20:44 <blacksheep>	IanWill: I guess an important thing is to have some kinda of guidance and a few graphics done, so that the artists get in the spirit
Jul 04 21:21:24 <basse_>	there are artists, designers, modellers, texturers and animators.
Jul 04 21:21:25 <IanWill>	do you think all was going fine and Steve overreacted too early with his email?
Jul 04 21:21:46 <basse_>	and too often projects lack a good designer. 
Jul 04 21:22:14 <IanWill>	he probably tought things were going too fast and out of control, but we know this is just a sketches phase, many tests and talks
Jul 04 21:22:16 <basse_>	IanWill: i actually understand it a bit.. 
Jul 04 21:22:44 <basse_>	if I'm not mistaken, he is the original designer of the game?
Jul 04 21:22:47 <IanWill>	the email was necessary, but he exagerated.
Jul 04 21:23:14 <IanWill>	yep, Steve is a great programmer, I've learned a lot just talking to him.
Jul 04 21:23:45 <basse_>	did he design the game too?
Jul 04 21:23:54 <IanWill>	basse_: Steve is the main author of the PLib gaming library and uses it for his games
Jul 04 21:24:10 <grumbel>	basse_: he did the current graphics for the game
Jul 04 21:24:12 <IanWill>	yes, tuxkart and tux:a quest for herring are two of his games
Jul 04 21:24:53 <basse_>	ok.. yea... so I kind of understand what is happening.. 
Jul 04 21:25:23 <basse_>	grumbel being designer artist modeller texturer animator programmer, when he jumps in, there are A LOT of changes, quickly.. 
Jul 04 21:25:57 <basse_>	so it can look like you are throwing all of his stuff away, and replacing it "what is so much better"
Jul 04 21:25:59 <IanWill>	the game was basically all done by him with some help from his son (some 3d models) and contributted music.
Jul 04 21:26:51 <basse_>	we have a bit this same problem on freedroid currently. 
Jul 04 21:27:31 <basse_>	we asked help for storyline.. and now it feels like the whole game is changing from "fun little action" to a serious RPG with lotsa killing and murder and rape.
Jul 04 21:27:37 <blacksheep>	basse_: oh, are you Freedroid's author?
Jul 04 21:28:09 <basse_>	blacksheep: i'm the graphic guy
Jul 04 21:28:52 <blacksheep>	it is a pretty cool game. I would vote it for gotm ;)
Jul 04 21:29:12 <basse_>	blacksheep: please dont. I would loose my mind :) 
Jul 04 21:29:29 <blacksheep>	heh
Jul 04 21:29:53 <IanWill>	this gotm related effort is cool,  I didn't know about it until reading on the tk-devel list
Jul 04 21:30:34 <IanWill>	I had something like this in mind for Blender: gathering artists from the community interested in games and "attacking" some game at a time, providing art for it
Jul 04 21:30:54 <blacksheep>	IanWill: yep, but there aren't that many developers :( for SuperTux, there were only a couple that came cause gotm
Jul 04 21:31:35 <blacksheep>	anyway, i see the movement get bigger and bigger
Jul 04 21:31:45 <IanWill>	I was aware of the sudden interest on supertux, but didn't know it was related to gametome
Jul 04 21:31:57 <IanWill>	yep, surely has potential
Jul 04 21:32:30 <blacksheep>	grumbel: have you already have any idea about Penny/Gown yet?
Jul 04 21:32:40 <grumbel>	blacksheep: nope
Jul 04 21:32:40 <blacksheep>	btw, should it be Gown or Penny?
Jul 04 21:32:55 <blacksheep>	grumbel: what about the one i sent to the list?
Jul 04 21:33:15 <IanWill>	I do want blender to become a great tool for open source art, I came here also because of that, so feel free to share opinions about what it needs, btw.
Jul 04 21:33:23 <grumbel>	blacksheep: that was tux with tits in pink
Jul 04 21:33:37 <blacksheep>	grumbel: no, i don't like pink...
Jul 04 21:34:43 <blacksheep>	grumbel: IMHO, Penny should be thiner than Tux, eyes stretched to the horizontal, and with some body turns
Jul 04 21:35:15 <blacksheep>	basically, the body should be the opposite of Tux
Jul 04 21:35:36 <blacksheep>	the face is the only thing that is hard to design
Jul 04 21:36:07 <grumbel>	basse_: any idea for a new look for tux's girlfriend?
Jul 04 21:36:37 <grumbel>	blacksheep: the body isn't easy either: women == long legs, but penguin == no legs
Jul 04 21:37:01 <grumbel>	same with hair, might not really look good on a penguin either
Jul 04 21:38:01 <basse_>	grumbel: lowpoly?
Jul 04 21:38:18 <blacksheep>	grumbel: not all women have long legs (well, Germans probably do ;)). anyway, penguins do have legs...
Jul 04 21:38:36 <blacksheep>	about the hair, i haven't really thought about that
Jul 04 21:38:41 <grumbel>	basse_: for the moment just a general idea would be enough, no need to create a 3d model yet
Jul 04 21:38:59 <grumbel>	blacksheep: tux however doesn't have legs
Jul 04 21:39:08 <blacksheep>	grumbel: anyway, you do agree that Penny is an important character, don't you?
Jul 04 21:39:14 <basse_>	grumbel: yes.. I meant is this going to be lowpoly?   if so then just long eyelashes and lipstick doesnt work :)
Jul 04 21:39:21 <blacksheep>	grumbel: he doesnit?
Jul 04 21:39:28 <basse_>	grumbel: she could be another type of penguin. 
Jul 04 21:39:43 <grumbel>	blacksheep: yes, its important and I want to keep it. but because its important I want it to look good, not just tux changed to pink
Jul 04 21:39:53 <blacksheep>	basse_: don't forget she is Tux's girlfriend...
Jul 04 21:40:26 <basse_>	blacksheep: you could put a little message there..  
Jul 04 21:40:30 <blacksheep>	grumbel: i'm glad you think it is important or else you would piss of my sister :)
Jul 04 21:40:36 <blacksheep>	s/of/off
Jul 04 21:41:14 <basse_>	she doesnt have to be penguin either
Jul 04 21:41:18 <blacksheep>	basse_: i mean that a different type of penguin might look bad. it is like a short guy and a tall girl :)
Jul 04 21:41:33 <basse_>	blacksheep: it could be very pretty little bird.. 
Jul 04 21:41:53 <grumbel>	blacksheep: princess toadstool doesn't look like mario in pink either
Jul 04 21:42:16 <blacksheep>	basse_: i am not really seeing any bird that would look well dating a penguin :D
Jul 04 21:42:26 <straver>	Steve have made quite alot of additions to the wiki
Jul 04 21:42:42 <blacksheep>	grumbel: i already said that i don't like pink!! :D
Jul 04 21:43:06 <blacksheep>	grumbel: i posted that TuxRacer picture and pointed it was a bad example
Jul 04 21:43:29 <grumbel>	blacksheep: yes, that was a bad example
Jul 04 21:43:35 <basse_>	blacksheep: you dont? hmm.. 
Jul 04 21:43:39 <blacksheep>	yes, i said that in the message
Jul 04 21:44:00 <blacksheep>	basse_: i like pink. but not in a penguin
Jul 04 21:44:25 <blacksheep>	a light gray might suit Penny
Jul 04 21:44:39 <blacksheep>	anyway, she could also be wearing something...
Jul 04 21:44:56 <blacksheep>	this way we wouldn't see her fur
Jul 04 21:45:13 <basse_>	well, if it has to be penguin. then make it more regular looking..
Jul 04 21:45:17 <basse_>	longer peek.. slimmer..
Jul 04 21:45:35 <basse_>	more elegant..
Jul 04 21:45:37 <grumbel>	blacksheep: then you end up with something like miss piggy
Jul 04 21:45:41 <basse_>	and neckless :)
Jul 04 21:45:43 <basse_>	perls
Jul 04 21:45:44 <basse_>	heh
Jul 04 21:46:11 <blacksheep>	grumbel: a sexy cloth, not a fat one
Jul 04 21:46:32 <blacksheep>	a top would be enough to hide her front
Jul 04 21:46:34 <basse_>	or, the radical way.. just change the coloring of black to a pink or something..
Jul 04 21:46:43 <blacksheep>	lol
Jul 04 21:46:57 <basse_>	it's not like tux is real penguin either
Jul 04 21:47:21 <blacksheep>	basse_: i believe it is based in some kinda of type of penguin
Jul 04 21:48:00 <basse_>	yep..
Jul 04 21:48:21 <basse_>	there are different kinds.. tux's girl friend could be king penquin.. (if that's how it is in english)
Jul 04 21:48:39 <basse_>	longer peak, yellow on the front
Jul 04 21:48:46 <blacksheep>	basse_: like i said, do you think it fits a short guy with a tall gal?
Jul 04 21:48:56 <basse_>	heh
Jul 04 21:49:03 <basse_>	sure
Jul 04 21:49:11 <basse_>	would look funny
Jul 04 21:49:26 <basse_>	or are you building serious racing game that features penguins?
Jul 04 21:50:28 <blacksheep>	i see that this is a loop talking :D
Jul 04 21:53:53 <grumbel>	speaking about other game issues, is there anything in mario kart that people don't want to have into tuxkart?
Jul 04 21:56:09 <grumbel>	or does everybody agree that tuxkart should be heading into a mariokart kind of game (well, it already is)? 
Jul 04 21:57:35 <IanWill>	I guess the idea of cloning is being pushed a little too much
Jul 04 21:57:50 <blacksheep>	well, have to go now
Jul 04 21:57:58 <IanWill>	there's really no need to, there are many cool things that can be done differently
Jul 04 21:58:04 <IanWill>	bye blacksheep 
Jul 04 21:58:06 <blacksheep>	grumbel: could you send the log to the mailing list?
Jul 04 21:58:13 <grumbel>	blacksheep: yep
Jul 04 21:58:21 <blacksheep>	thx, see ya
Jul 04 21:58:22 <grumbel>	IanWill: which one?
Jul 04 21:58:26 <--	blacksheep (~ri...@19...) has left #tuxkart ("Kopete 0.8.0 : http://kopete.kde.org")
Jul 04 21:58:31 <grumbel>	just adding stuff will for sure not work
Jul 04 21:58:41 <IanWill>	gameplay things
Jul 04 21:59:05 <IanWill>	I don't mean adding complex stuff, just not following mk as a design goal
Jul 04 21:59:22 <grumbel>	and for the weapons I don't think that we should go much different either, after all the kind of weapons are kind of standard (passive ones, missiles, homing missiles, etc.)
Jul 04 21:59:39 <IanWill>	for example, ODE makes a much different game than mk, but that's a good addition, can make gameplay a lot funner
Jul 04 21:59:56 <grumbel>	using ODE would give a whole different game, yep
Jul 04 22:00:23 <grumbel>	thats why I am basically against using ODE
Jul 04 22:01:22 <IanWill>	it wouldn't necessarily make gameplay too "real" or complex, just tighter and more subtle, the parameters of the simulation can be tweaked for fun gameplay
Jul 04 22:01:49 <straver>	does ODE really limit you so much in how the physics behave?
Jul 04 22:01:55 <IanWill>	no
Jul 04 22:02:31 <IanWill>	you control its precision, gravity force, sliding (needed of course) per terrain, etc.
Jul 04 22:03:02 <grumbel>	straver: the thing is using ODE and then inserting a dozens of special cases to get it more mariokart like would be rather pointless
Jul 04 22:03:37 <IanWill>	not special cases, just normal tweaking that programmers using a physics lib have to do for every game
Jul 04 22:05:54 <straver>	so... is the meeting over now?
Jul 04 22:06:20 <IanWill>	looks so :)
Jul 04 22:08:33 <IanWill>	going, thanks guys, excuse me any foolish comment...
Jul 04 22:08:52 <--	IanWill (~willian@200.226.12.32) has left #tuxkart

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

[TuxKart-devel] Pictures vanished from Wiki

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

All of the images seem to have vanished from the Wiki pages!

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
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Re: [TuxKart-devel] Wiki problems.

[Matze B. <ma...@br...>]

Sorry, there was another error for people that had a homepage created in 
the old wiki. I now deleted the homepages and you have to recreate them. I 
copied all the old texts here:
	http://netpanzer.berlios.de/tuxkart/index.php/OldUserPages

so you should be able to just copy&paste the old text in.

Greetings,
	Matze

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Steve Baker wrote:

> 
> That didn't seem to make any difference at all.
> 
> Matze Braun wrote:
> > Somehow phpwiki seems to still be a bit buggy. I changed some settings and 
> > stuff and hope it is fixed now. Eventually you have to setup your user account 
> > again now. (with a password).
> > 
> > Greetings,
> > 	Matze
> > 
> > On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Steve Baker wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>I tried to edit a Wiki page today and it says:
> >>
> >>Fatal PhpWiki Error
> >>Creating pages is disallowed on this wiki for user (level: -1).
> >>
> >>...which I took to mean that I hadn't logged in or something.  However,
> >>when I type my userID in the box at the bottom-right corner of the
> >>homepage and click the button, *NOTHING* happens.
> >>
> >>It worked OK the first day the Wiki was up (when I'd just created
> >>the SteveBaker account) - but evidently something got screwed when
> >>I logged out or something???
> >>
> >>Help!
> 
> ---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
> HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
> Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
>             http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
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> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
> 
> 

Re: [TuxKart-devel] Wiki problems.

[Matze B. <ma...@br...>]

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Steve Baker wrote:

> Matze Braun wrote:
> > Somehow phpwiki seems to still be a bit buggy. I changed some settings and 
> > stuff and hope it is fixed now. Eventually you have to setup your user account 
> > again now. (with a password).
> 
> Could you also change the HTML title from 'TuxKart Home Page' to something like
> 'TuxKart Wiki'?  The home page is on SourceForge and having two things labelled
> like that will confuse Googlers.   I'll put a link to the Wiki on the homepage.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem possible, as the first page the wiki 
displays is always the "Home Page" :-/

Greetings,
	Matze

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 02:27 +0200, Ingo Ruhnke wrote:
> > Actually, I happen to agree 100% with Steve on this. 90% of the time
> > you are viewing the karts from behind. 99% of the time, you're
> > viewing part of the back of the karts. It is the most important
> > view.
> 
> Yes, its important, however making them to wild or animated would
> distract from the driving. Beside that its a kart, so it should look
> more or less like a kart, nothing wrong with adding a few bells and
> whistles, but one shouldn't forget thats its about driving, not about
> watching vehicles from behind. If the gadgets on the kart start
> obscuring the view on the track one certainly needs to reduce them.

I actually thought your karts were looking pretty dandy and varied from
behind anyway, and look forward to seeing the finished articles.

But, yes, I agree.  This is TuxKART, not TuxKARNIVAL.  The karts have to
be somewhat kartlike, don't they?
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...> writes:

> Actually, I happen to agree 100% with Steve on this. 90% of the time
> you are viewing the karts from behind. 99% of the time, you're
> viewing part of the back of the karts. It is the most important
> view.

Yes, its important, however making them to wild or animated would
distract from the driving. Beside that its a kart, so it should look
more or less like a kart, nothing wrong with adding a few bells and
whistles, but one shouldn't forget thats its about driving, not about
watching vehicles from behind. If the gadgets on the kart start
obscuring the view on the track one certainly needs to reduce them.

As said lots and lots of games had vehicles that weren't especially
interesting to watch from behind, yet I havn't heart a single person
ever complaining about that.

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

RE: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Flash <fl...@da...>]

Ok now for my comments, im not much of a developer (but I do my best to
learn and help) im not much of a 3d artist either, but I have good ideas and
try to help in that matter and yes, im one of the people that joined the
mailinglist, wiki and am active on irc.


>I have tried to explain the problem with them - buy all I'm seeing
>is more of the same.  I don't need to see them textured to know that
>they are not what the game needs.

We are talking about tuxKart here, it's a Kart game, it isn't wacky racers
nor is it any other movie it's a Kart game so its only normal to have some
type of karts in the game whatever they look like my view is it have to be
karts of some type.

>It's not just a matter of artistic interpretation either - I've worked
>on this game for quite some time - and I know as a matter of FACT that
>karts need to be much more easily distinguished - and that they need to
>look more visually interesting from behind.  It almost doesn't matter
>what they look like from the front and sides.

I have played tuxkart and there are 4 exactly the same karts in the game
now, just with different colours. If you wanted to have them look different
why not make them different in your own game already. If you look at the
(rather nice) karts that were made when they are textured you will see you
have different looking karts (yes they REALLY look different from behind
(even in further distance)) exactly what you want.

>I'm not an artist - I don't make good 3D models - I'm a programmer.
>However, that doesn't mean I don't know how the game needs to look.
>Whilst I may not be able to sketch or model the kind of thing I have
>in mind, I can point to other things (as I've done repeatedly) and
>say "I think we need something more like this." - if I could actually
>DO the 3D modelling, TuxKart would have the models I would like to
>see and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

So leave the artists at work and see what they come up with, so far I think
they (he, ingo) has done great work and if you can only take up the effort
to wait for a full set of textured characters im sure youll agree that they
are just fine.

>I already agreed that Geeko has to go.  I disagree about BSOD - but OTOH,
>I don't see how an ice-cube is any better!  So, dumping BSOD and using
>the stupid ice-cube is *CLEARLY* change for change's sake.  It subtracts
>interest rather than adding to it.

>Some of the new characters are very good.  I love Sushi the Octopus and
>Mozilla is coming along OK too.

Your right about ice-cube, its not one of my favorites either, but there are
enough characters to pick from. You only need 4 for a race, and maybe 6 to 8
to pick from in the character screen. In the end well probably end up with a
few more so everyone can pick the bests ones to come up with a nice total.

>No - but I'll be VERY suprised if we get quality tracks in sufficient
>quantity
>to fulfil all of our needs.  Fixing up some of the existing tracks is one
>way
>to do more with less effort...tossing some of them out is certainly
>necessary,
>tossing all of them out just isn't feasible.

Do think your right about that, we should keep the current tracks, maybe
make them look a bit nicer and add a bunch of tracks to the current list. I
don't agree with trowing them all out, or trowing any out just before there
are more tracks to pick from.

>> We _are_ all those people.

> No - you aren't.

>44 people voted for TuxKart.  20 people joined the mailing list.  4 became
>developers.  Those 4 people are less than 10% of the people who voted.

Make that 5 :P

>There was NO discussion of taming the game down and turning it into a
>regular
>gokart game.

It isn't going to be a 'regular' kart game, the current game extents a bit
in the way of Mario kart or wacky wheels, the game that will be the end
result will be exactly the same. You are trying to get a game that's like
wacky races, but that is NOT a kart game in any way. Than why not rename the
project to tuxraces or so right away.


>* We need are some much more INTERESTING karts - not simply karts
>   with a lot more polygons that still look kinda similar.  Stop working
>   on all of the karts we have now - build more radical designs.

Said my part on this..

>* We need better tracks - more complex, longer, more interesting - NOT
>   shorter and simpler.  Plan on every track being AT LEAST a couple of
>   kilometers long...preferably more like four kilometers - so we can
>   get lap durations in the 60 to 90 second range with karts travelling
>   at 60 to 120mph.  Sketch out some track plans, make lists of objects
>   like trees, barrels, animals, volcanoes, castles...etc.

This was the plan wasn't it. We just need someone to build some tracks with
nice themes and maybe model them even. Will take some time but im sure this
will work out just fine.

>* We need more emphasis on the fun aspects of picking up stuff and
>   dropping/shooting/throwing at each other - and LESS emphasis on
>   it being a pure racing game.  Think new weapons, gadgets, fun things
>   that each character and each kart can do that's different and special.
>   Make a list of those for each character - make sure the artwork and
>  these effects tie together.

I agree on this, im sure that was the aim of the project to. Nobody ment it
to be a regulair racing game. The weapons and stuff are just part of the
'fun' part of this game.

> * We need programming effort on special effects, animation, AI and
>   Physics - NOT GUI.

If someone likes to work on the gui, why not let him. If that person wants
to do something else, why not let him do that to if it works out fine it
works out fine and everybodys happy, if not.. you got a gui so stick with
it.

>That's what (IMHO) was expected at the outset when those 44 people
>voted for TuxKar as the GoTM.

That was what you expected, not the 'aim' of GoTM.

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

On Sun, 2004-07-04 at 00:58 +0200, Ingo Ruhnke wrote:
> How do you come to the conclusion that the game needs 'interesting
> from behind karts'? I mean, sure, they shouldn't look especially bad
> or completly similar from behind, but I really don't see a need to
> make this such an important point.

Actually, I happen to agree 100% with Steve on this.  90% of the time
you are viewing the karts from behind.  99% of the time, you're viewing
part of the back of the karts.  It is the most important view.

> Don't forget that a 'good look' only lasts for the first few minutes
> of the game, after that people will care about gameplay. So its really
> only imporant that the game looks 'good enough', not perfect, not
> especially 'interesting from behind', just good enough that they don't
> instantly yell about its ugliness.

Agreed, the game is about gameplay.  Steve was OTT in his harshness.

> Its not for "change's sake", its because her current look is really
> quite ugly, as said "Tux with Tits". I really don't want keep
> anything, unless there is good reason to do so.

ROFLMAO.

Tux with tits really isn't good.  But 'gown' as a concept is something
everybody is happy with.  Her look needs to be a bit more, um, nice.

> > I disagree about BSOD - but OTOH, I don't see how an ice-cube is any
> > better!
> 
> I consider anything that isn't anti-microsoft propaganda better than
> BSOD.

I think we should just dump 'em both.  They're both boring.  But that's
my opinion. ;)

I don't see what the character fuss is all about.  We should just draw
up a list of what characters are proposed and then let the group decide.

Yes, I know I said I'd do that list a few nights ago.  I will... soon.

> > - towards a very basic go-kart simulation with animals driving the
> > karts instead of humans.
> 
> I wouldn't call it simulation due to all those special items and such,
> but beside that I don't see much reasons to not target 'karts with
> animals', the original MarioKart wasn't much else and especially due
> to that it was so great.

Karts with animals vs. karts with geeko and BSOD.  It's hardly a
difficult choice to make.

> > There was NO discussion of taming the game down and turning it into
> > a regular gokart game.

It already is a regular gokart game.  I thought this GotM was about
making it a special, fun gokart game.
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

On Sat, 2004-07-03 at 15:28 -0500, Steve Baker wrote:
> I have tried to explain the problem with them - buy all I'm seeing
> is more of the same.  I don't need to see them textured to know that
> they are not what the game needs.
> 
> It's not just a matter of artistic interpretation either - I've worked
> on this game for quite some time - and I know as a matter of FACT that
> karts need to be much more easily distinguished - and that they need to
> look more visually interesting from behind.  It almost doesn't matter
> what they look like from the front and sides.

I hear you.  Ingo hears you.  Everybody hears you.  Nobody is saying you
are wrong.  Nobody is saying that the _end_ result will not be like
this.

BUT YOU ARE BEING UNREASONABLE.  Those are _preliminary_ sketches and
_draft_ 3D models.  They are a _start_.  A _base_.  Stop prejudging that
which is not only unrefined but where the ink isn't even dry.

They will change, your feedback is good, but you've got to stop being so
damn impatient otherwise contributors like Ingo will go elsewhere.

And, despite the early stage of the karts, you must admit they are far,
far better than the existing karts.  So, whilst we all hear and (at
least I) agree with your opinions on how to improve them, can you please
stop being so harsh because our response isn't instant.

> I've been doing 3D graphics (and games) since the mid 1980's - and my
> job (flight simulation) has a lot to do with how people recognise
> targets at distance on 3D graphic displays.  This isn't just idle
> supposition.

Who said you were wrong?  Quote somebody that _refuted_ the need for the
karts to look drastically different.  Ingo has already made each kart
look different, and those looks simply need exaggerating.

> I don't have 'authority' - this is an OpenSource effort - we proceed
> by consensus or not at all - which is why I presented my viewpoint
> as clearly as possible and asked for some discussion.
> 
> If I had authority, then my repeated assertions that these karts are
> 
> a) Not 'wild' enough.
> ...and...
> b) Too boring from behind.
> 
> ...would have resulted in someone building some wilder karts that look
> more interesting from behind rather than a procession of very similar
> looking things that look almost identical from behind (at realistic
> ranges and resolutions).

UUUURRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!

We are but a few days in.  We've not even had the first meeting.  Can
you just get off of your pulpit until there's at least been a _chance_
for some reflection on the INITIAL, DRAFT, PRELIMINARY contributions.

> I did think GoTM's philosophy was to get in quick

Quick means a month or two.  We are 3 days into July.  3 freakin' days.

> * We need are some much more INTERESTING karts - not simply karts
>    with a lot more polygons that still look kinda similar.  Stop working
>    on all of the karts we have now - build more radical designs.

Patience is a virtue.  Ingo and others are talented people.  The
iterations and evolution of their work will be more than pleasing, it
will be a vast improvement.

> * We need better tracks - more complex, longer, more interesting - NOT
>    shorter and simpler.  Plan on every track being AT LEAST a couple of
>    kilometers long...preferably more like four kilometers - so we can
>    get lap durations in the 60 to 90 second range with karts travelling
>    at 60 to 120mph.  Sketch out some track plans, make lists of objects
>    like trees, barrels, animals, volcanoes, castles...etc.

Give it a chance.  And why shouldn't there be a combination of short,
medium, and long tracks.  Why limit ourselves?

> * We need more emphasis on the fun aspects of picking up stuff and
>    dropping/shooting/throwing at each other - and LESS emphasis on
>    it being a pure racing game.  Think new weapons, gadgets, fun things
>    that each character and each kart can do that's different and special.
>    Make a list of those for each character - make sure the artwork and
>    these effects tie together.

This all needs discussion.  You haven't even let the dust settle and you
presume that we are out to do the opposite to what you want.  When we
have an irc meeting or two, this will all get discussed and all get
agreed upon in a reasonable fashion.

Personally, I think there's a good balance to be had between picking up
stuff, shooting, and racing.  Whilst new weapons and gadgets are
necessary, too many could upset the balance of the race.  It is a racing
game at heart, just a fun one that doesn't play by the rules.  But you
still have to finish ahead of your competitors.

> * We need programming effort on special effects, animation, AI and
>    Physics - NOT GUI.

So your rant about not wanting everything to be improved was completely
unecessary.  You just stated that you want everything improving except
the GUI, yet your previous email bemoaned the fact that we wanted to
improve everything.  You must see how frustrating that will be for
others to read.

> That's what (IMHO) was expected at the outset when those 44 people
> voted for TuxKar as the GoTM.

They voted for TuxKart to be the next GotM because they thought it had
the most potential.  Potential that a team can realise.  You are not
fostering teamwork with your quick-draw rants because we aren't
instantly making you happy.

3 FREAKIN' DAYS!!!!!!!!!!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A frustrated...
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> writes:

> I have tried to explain the problem with them - buy all I'm seeing
> is more of the same.  I don't need to see them textured to know that
> they are not what the game needs.

How do you come to the conclusion that the game needs 'interesting
from behind karts'? I mean, sure, they shouldn't look especially bad
or completly similar from behind, but I really don't see a need to
make this such an important point. People have been playing car games
for years and often all the cars looked exactly the same, except the
color, and nobody seems to go mad about it.

> I keep explaining this - and all I'm seeing are karts that (when
> seen at actual game resolutions, speeds and distances) look pretty
> similar.

Yes, all have four wheels, as a kart should have. As said, increasing
the characters size on the karts should let them look reasonably
different.

> Now go look again at the link I posted from the Wacky Racers cartoon
> or the MarioKart DoubleDash - and think about how much easier those
> are to recognise and what animation possibilities they present for
> makeing things interesting from behind.

Getting them more interesting from behind is only good as long as it
doesn't distract from driving. And well, getting them 'Wacky Racers'
look-a-like would really go over the top and could ruin the gameplay
experience quite a bit, since it surly would distract. Beside that it
would surly hide the characters inside the karts, which I think are an
very important part and should thus be very visible.

Don't forget that a 'good look' only lasts for the first few minutes
of the game, after that people will care about gameplay. So its really
only imporant that the game looks 'good enough', not perfect, not
especially 'interesting from behind', just good enough that they don't
instantly yell about its ugliness.

> However, yes - these are the only contributions so far - but I need
> to say that these are not (in my opinion) the kinds of thing we
> need.

What the game needs is a bit better graphics and a lot better
gameplay.

> What concerns me it that the general thrust is 180 degrees away from
> the general direction that TuxKart is intended to take.

I still fail to see how this is '180 degrees away', its just the look
of the game and it really isn't that important.

>> No chains, so let people work on what they want to work on. If the
>> end result is an improvement, then you win. If not, you get to keep
>> the old GUI. No loss. Why are you complaining about a no-lose
>> situation?
>
> Because with finite effort and limited time, we should channel our
> efforts where it's most needed.

GUI is one reason where work *is* needed. You can ruin or at least
hamper a game very easily if you make the GUI to complicated and
inaccessible.

>> Everybody has happily agreed to stick with Gown.
> No - they havn't - VERY far from it.
> That move to radically change her 'look' is PARTICULARLY upsetting
> because I had gone to all that trouble to find out what female
> gamers would actually prefer to see for Tux's female counterpart.
> The only pressure to change her is some people's desire to change
> things for change's sake.

Its not for "change's sake", its because her current look is really
quite ugly, as said "Tux with Tits". I really don't want keep
anything, unless there is good reason to do so.

> I disagree about BSOD - but OTOH, I don't see how an ice-cube is any
> better!

I consider anything that isn't anti-microsoft propaganda better than
BSOD.

> So, dumping BSOD and using the stupid ice-cube is *CLEARLY* change
> for change's sake.

Its a change to get rid of this completly pointless propaganda. Free
Software has to learn to stand on its own, bashing other products
doesn't really help here. Beside BSOD just doesn't fit into the crowed
of other animal-like characters, and yes, neither does ice-cube, which
is why he shouldn't be used either.

> It subtracts interest rather than adding to it.

And BSOD is interesting exactly how?

> No - but I'll be VERY suprised if we get quality tracks in
> sufficient quantity to fulfil all of our needs. Fixing up some of
> the existing tracks is one way to do more with less effort...tossing
> some of them out is certainly necessary, tossing all of them out
> just isn't feasible.

Getting 10 to 15 tracks shouldn't be too much of a problem. I don't
see how recycling the current tracks should help here much.
BTW. We already have a blender export script that handles the objects
placed on the track:

 * http://will.encanners.net/arca/

> It's not the *standard* of the content - it's the *direction* of the
> content...away from a wild game with crazy looking karts and nice
> long, cutesy looking tracks

Well, it doesn't have crazy looking karts or long, cutesy looking
tracks now, so I really don't see how we are moving away from
anything.

> - towards a very basic go-kart simulation with animals driving the
> karts instead of humans.

I wouldn't call it simulation due to all those special items and such,
but beside that I don't see much reasons to not target 'karts with
animals', the original MarioKart wasn't much else and especially due
to that it was so great.

> There was NO discussion of taming the game down and turning it into
> a regular gokart game.

The game is a MarioKart clone, MarioKart is just 'karts with animals
and specials', so I don't see how we are turning it any more into a
regular gokart game than it already is.

> I did think GoTM's philosophy was to get in quick - do some quick
> fixes that could reasonably be managed in a couple of months - then
> move on.

If GotM was just about quick fixes, there wouldn't be a need for GotM
at all. GotM is about boosting the gameplay experience quite a bit
with whatever is doable, since we already had a volunteer for GUI and
new kart designs, I would just say continue that way, no need stop
"because it isn't doable" while people are already doing it.

> * We need are some much more INTERESTING karts - not simply karts
> with a lot more polygons that still look kinda similar. Stop working
> on all of the karts we have now - build more radical designs.

How would they improve the gameplay experience?

> * We need better tracks - more complex, longer, more interesting -
> NOT shorter and simpler. Plan on every track being AT LEAST a couple
> of kilometers long...preferably more like four kilometers - so we
> can get lap durations in the 60 to 90 second range with karts
> travelling at 60 to 120mph. Sketch out some track plans, make lists
> of objects like trees, barrels, animals, volcanoes, castles...etc.

My favorite track is still the first one of MarioKart (SNES), driving
around it takes 10-15seconds, yet, mastering it completly takes quite
some time. I kind of get the feeling that all you want it just more
'<blink>-tags', while kind of losing the focus about the core
gameplay.

> * We need more emphasis on the fun aspects of picking up stuff and
> dropping/shooting/throwing at each other - and LESS emphasis on it
> being a pure racing game. Think new weapons, gadgets, fun things
> that each character and each kart can do that's different and
> special. Make a list of those for each character - make sure the
> artwork and these effects tie together.

Just 'more' won't make the game better, it will actually make it
worse. What the game needs are a few very well balanced items, not
just tons of crap.

> * We need programming effort on special effects, animation, AI and
> Physics - NOT GUI.

GUI will seriously impact the gameplay experince, special effects and
animation won't, not saying we don't need them, but I think you
dramatically underestimate the importance of a good GUI.

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC Meeting?

[Ryan F. <rf...@gm...>]

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004 18:11:17 -0600, Ryan Flegel <rf...@gm...> wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Jul 2004 19:40:17 -0500, Steve Baker <sjb...@ai...> wrote:
> >
> > Nobody replied (either here or on the HP forum) to the suggestion to
> > hold an IRC meeting this weekend.
> >
> > I'm proposing 18:00 GMT on Sunday.
> >
> > Please respond with an "OK" or "Can't make it then" before Saturday
> > morning.
> 
> Maybe.

I'd like to upgrade mine to a "most likely". I may show up late, but I
should be there.

-- 
Ryan

Re: [TuxKart-devel] GUI

[Ryan F. <rf...@gm...>]

On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 12:11:43 +0100, Ricardo Cruz <ri...@ae...> wrote:
> Em Quarta, 30 de Junho de 2004 21:56, o Ryan Flegel escreveu:
> > Just wanted to point out some obvious(?) advantages to SWS approach.
> >
> > * With the SWS approach we can have previews of what each character
> > and each track looks like before choosing. This would be a total mess
> > using the MWS approach.
> 
>  The only disadvantage a MWS approach would have in that case is that one
> would have to design it before implementing it. Else, yes, it could be a
> mess.
> 
> > * For things like multiplayer character select it will be really messy
> > having 4 people choose their characters on a screen with all sorts of
> > other options there. With the SWS approach we have a nice, intuitive
> > way for all players to select their characters.
> 
>  It isn't 8 or 80. We can still have a dialog that would allow players to
> change a few stuff, choosing them by turns.

Well, if we have a previews for 8 cars, that's pretty much the whole
screen. Choosing them by turns is an unnecessary waste of time.

> > * After a race is complete, usually the only thing that you want to
> > change is the track. While this can still easily be done with the MWS
> > approach, it confronts the users with a lot of unecessary options.
> 
>  The track change would only happen in the Practice mode. In any other, it
> should only show statistics, and maybe allowing the player to abort.

No.. they'll all have the ability to go back and select the track
except grand prix (since it's already predetermined).

-- 
Ryan

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Charles Goodwin wrote:

> Ingo's view is a proactive one.  He's done sketches, and created 3D
> models based on those sketches.  All of them have different karts.
> Maybe not wildly different, but until somebody helps or provides an
> alternative, and until he has them in what he considers a final state
> (he hasn't even textured them!?) then this is an unfair assertion.

I have tried to explain the problem with them - buy all I'm seeing
is more of the same.  I don't need to see them textured to know that
they are not what the game needs.

It's not just a matter of artistic interpretation either - I've worked
on this game for quite some time - and I know as a matter of FACT that
karts need to be much more easily distinguished - and that they need to
look more visually interesting from behind.  It almost doesn't matter
what they look like from the front and sides.

I keep explaining this - and all I'm seeing are karts that (when seen
at actual game resolutions, speeds and distances) look pretty similar.
Things will only get worse as we add effects like dust and smoke to
obscure them further.

I've been doing 3D graphics (and games) since the mid 1980's - and my
job (flight simulation) has a lot to do with how people recognise
targets at distance on 3D graphic displays.  This isn't just idle
supposition.

Now go look again at the link I posted from the Wacky Racers cartoon
or the MarioKart DoubleDash - and think about how much easier those
are to recognise and what animation possibilities they present for
makeing things interesting from behind.

> You have had ample opportunity to show us sketches and plans for what
> you need.  "More like this game" is just not good enough if you want
> people to model your ideas.

I'm not an artist - I don't make good 3D models - I'm a programmer.
However, that doesn't mean I don't know how the game needs to look.
Whilst I may not be able to sketch or model the kind of thing I have
in mind, I can point to other things (as I've done repeatedly) and
say "I think we need something more like this." - if I could actually
DO the 3D modelling, TuxKart would have the models I would like to
see and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

> His are the only decent contributions thus far.

(Actually, my son contributed that BSOD kart earlier as a 'sketch'
for something a bit more interesting).

However, yes - these are the only contributions so far - but I need
to say that these are not (in my opinion) the kinds of thing we need.

> Assert your authority.

I don't have 'authority' - this is an OpenSource effort - we proceed
by consensus or not at all - which is why I presented my viewpoint
as clearly as possible and asked for some discussion.

If I had authority, then my repeated assertions that these karts are

a) Not 'wild' enough.
...and...
b) Too boring from behind.

...would have resulted in someone building some wilder karts that look
more interesting from behind rather than a procession of very similar
looking things that look almost identical from behind (at realistic
ranges and resolutions).

> Ingo is not demanding or forcing the issue, just
> expressing a preference and opinion.  Are we not allowed opinions?  Or
> are we not allowed opinions that differ from yours?

Of course people should express opinions...isn't that what I just did?

What concerns me it that the general thrust is 180 degrees away from
the general direction that TuxKart is intended to take.  Without some
sort of common 'direction', we'll pull in opposite directions and make
no progress.

> No chains, so let people work on what they want to work on.  If the end
> result is an improvement, then you win.  If not, you get to keep the old
> GUI.  No loss.  Why are you complaining about a no-lose situation?

Because with finite effort and limited time, we should channel our efforts
where it's most needed.

> Everybody has happily agreed to stick with Gown.

No - they havn't - VERY far from it.

That move to radically change her 'look' is PARTICULARLY upsetting because
I had gone to all that trouble to find out what female gamers would actually
prefer to see for Tux's female counterpart.   The only pressure to change
her is some people's desire to change things for change's sake.

> You have to admit that
> BSOD and Geeky are hardly charismatic characters.

I already agreed that Geeko has to go.  I disagree about BSOD - but OTOH,
I don't see how an ice-cube is any better!  So, dumping BSOD and using
the stupid ice-cube is *CLEARLY* change for change's sake.  It subtracts
interest rather than adding to it.

Some of the new characters are very good.  I love Sushi the Octopus and
Mozilla is coming along OK too.

> The current tracks suck.  Sorry, they do.  Yes, they could be improved
> upon, but that's the choice of whomever works on them.  If somebody
> provides a lovely, fancy set of cool new tracks then are you going to
> reject them purely because they are not an evolution of the old tracks?

No - but I'll be VERY suprised if we get quality tracks in sufficient quantity
to fulfil all of our needs.  Fixing up some of the existing tracks is one way
to do more with less effort...tossing some of them out is certainly necessary,
tossing all of them out just isn't feasible.

> You can only guide volunteers, not control them.  You should be grateful
> for their contributions if said contributions are an improvement.  Do
> not judge the GotM work before we have done some.  We are not stupid
> people and will not force sub-standard content upon TuxKart.

It's not the *standard* of the content - it's the *direction* of the
content...away from a wild game with crazy looking karts and nice long,
cutesy looking tracks - towards a very basic go-kart simulation with
animals driving the karts instead of humans.

> Perhaps you should withdraw TuxKart from GotM because you don't want
> your precious work being improved in something that differs very, very
> slightly from the way in which you imagined.  It's not like we're here
> to break the game, we're here to improve it.

I have been very careful to say that I'm happy to have things improved
upon, more characters, more tracks.  What disturbs me is major changes
in direction and in the fundamental character of the game.

> We _are_ all those people.

No - you aren't.

44 people voted for TuxKart.  20 people joined the mailing list.  4 became
developers.  Those 4 people are less than 10% of the people who voted.

> I honestly see no deviation from the forums in the conversations that have
> continued on the mailing list, other than you becoming weirdly hostile.

There was NO discussion of taming the game down and turning it into a regular
gokart game.

I did think GoTM's philosophy was to get in quick - do some quick
fixes that could reasonably be managed in a couple of months - then move
on.  I did not expect a major turn of direction - or such major redesign
of the parts of the game (like the GUI) that work just fine - or which
could be evolved at some later time.

If I had some kind of mystical authority here, I would be directing
people as follows:

* We need are some much more INTERESTING karts - not simply karts
   with a lot more polygons that still look kinda similar.  Stop working
   on all of the karts we have now - build more radical designs.

* We need better tracks - more complex, longer, more interesting - NOT
   shorter and simpler.  Plan on every track being AT LEAST a couple of
   kilometers long...preferably more like four kilometers - so we can
   get lap durations in the 60 to 90 second range with karts travelling
   at 60 to 120mph.  Sketch out some track plans, make lists of objects
   like trees, barrels, animals, volcanoes, castles...etc.

* We need more emphasis on the fun aspects of picking up stuff and
   dropping/shooting/throwing at each other - and LESS emphasis on
   it being a pure racing game.  Think new weapons, gadgets, fun things
   that each character and each kart can do that's different and special.
   Make a list of those for each character - make sure the artwork and
   these effects tie together.

* We need programming effort on special effects, animation, AI and
   Physics - NOT GUI.

That's what (IMHO) was expected at the outset when those 44 people
voted for TuxKar as the GoTM.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC Meeting?

[Matze B. <ma...@br...>]

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Steve Baker wrote:

> Looks like Sunday is a bust then - too many No's and an awful lot
> of people who havn't replied at all.
What did you expect? You had ~3 yes. The whole supertux release was done 
by ~5 people. So if 4 people are in the meeting on sunday that would 
already be much. Also you've got the chance that discussions are short and 
on the point if not so many people join...

Greetings,
	Matze

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC Meeting?

[Ingo R. <gr...@gm...>]

philippe <phi...@vi...> writes:

> Well, I said No but finaly I can. What server and channel ??

irc.freenote.net, #tuxkart, there are already ~10 peoples constantly
hanging around in that channel.

-- 
WWW:      http://pingus.seul.org/~grumbel/ 
JabberID: gr...@ja... 
ICQ:      59461927

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

Ok, rant about rant aside, here's a more constructive critique.

On Sat, 2004-07-03 at 12:04 -0500, Steve Baker wrote:
> As must already be very aparrent, I'm not a happy camper.  Just
> about everything that's been discussed here since the GoTM vote
> has been 180 degrees away from where I think it should be going.

It's going the same way that was discussed in the forums.  More and new
characters, with bigger and better karts.  And then some polish on the
game play (physics / AI) plus anything else people are willing to
contribute.

It seems (from my perspective) to be going along exactly to plan.

> It's increasingly aparrent that for many people here, the idea of
> improving and extending TuxKart has somehow changed into a desire
> to essentially throw away EVERYTHING that currently exists and start
> what is an entirely new game.

No, it's not.  It's "take an existing code base and idea and improve
upon it."  We're not saying, "ditch the code."  We're not saying, "ditch
the idea."  You can't explicitly limit what can and cannot be improved
about the game without going against the entire spirit of GotM and Free
Software.

> 1) Ingo's is clearly of the view that he wants a fairly 'normal'
>     GoKart racing game.  TuxKart is not intended to be that.

Ingo's view is a proactive one.  He's done sketches, and created 3D
models based on those sketches.  All of them have different karts.
Maybe not wildly different, but until somebody helps or provides an
alternative, and until he has them in what he considers a final state
(he hasn't even textured them!?) then this is an unfair assertion.

You have had ample opportunity to show us sketches and plans for what
you need.  "More like this game" is just not good enough if you want
people to model your ideas.

>     His models (whilst very nice) are of essentially standard
>     go-karts and not the wilder designs of games like DoubleDash
>     and others of the 'krazy kart' genre.

His are the only decent contributions thus far.

>     He's also expressed (in the Wikki section on tracks) that he
>     wants more normal tracks - shorter laps and a greater emphasis
>     on kart driving with less on the gadgets, powerups and collectibles
>     that are also the trademark of the genre I have in mind.

Assert your authority.  Ingo is not demanding or forcing the issue, just
expressing a preference and opinion.  Are we not allowed opinions?  Or
are we not allowed opinions that differ from yours?

> 2) Changing the GUI entirely.  Well, I can at least understand the
>     logic behind this (although I still disagree with it) - but I think
>     it's out of scope for the GoTM effort - it wasn't even mentioned
>     in the ToDo lists that people voted on.  But - OK - those aren't
>     meant to chain us down.

No chains, so let people work on what they want to work on.  If the end
result is an improvement, then you win.  If not, you get to keep the old
GUI.  No loss.  Why are you complaining about a no-lose situation?

> 3) Characters:  Several people have argued to throw out all of the
>     existing characters (with the possible exception of Tux).  Fine,
>     but unnecessary in my view.  This too was not something that came
>     up in the "ToDo" list or the pre-vote discussions.

Everybody has happily agreed to stick with Gown.  You have to admit that
BSOD and Geeky are hardly charismatic characters.  It's ironic that you
complain Ingo's karts are not "fun" enough yet you want possibly two of
the most boring characters you could imagine to stick in the game.  But,
even then, from what I can see it's been accepted that they're staying
with ideas being thrown around to make them more interesting.  Somebody
even did a new Geeky model.

After expressing a severe dislike for the idea of using Mozilla, Ingo
created a Mozilla model because _you_ mandated having Mozilla.

> 4) Tracks:  Do we intend to improve the existing tracks and add more,
>     or toss out all of them and make entirely new ones?   I kinda get
>     the feeling from reading Wiki and peoples comments that the latter
>     is the basic intent.

The current tracks suck.  Sorry, they do.  Yes, they could be improved
upon, but that's the choice of whomever works on them.  If somebody
provides a lovely, fancy set of cool new tracks then are you going to
reject them purely because they are not an evolution of the old tracks?

You can only guide volunteers, not control them.  You should be grateful
for their contributions if said contributions are an improvement.  Do
not judge the GotM work before we have done some.  We are not stupid
people and will not force sub-standard content upon TuxKart.

> If all of these things come to pass - along with the (very needed) AI
> and physics changes - then there is NOTHING left of the original game.

That's not true.

The original artwork and 3d models are not the greatest and designed for
computers as they were 4-5 years ago (few polys, limited textures).
Part of the whole GotM TODO was to improve upon them (by updating them
or replacing them).

Other than the GUI, I fail to see what your gripe is.  You wanted more
characters and more tracks.  People start the process of providing that
and you are complaining that we are doing what you wanted - renewing and
updating the artwork.  Crazy!

> You might as well leave TuxKart alone and write an entirely new game
> from scratch.   This is fine by me - but there is no chance in hell
> you'll get it finished in two months.

No, because we want to improve upon the codebase, not rewrite it from
scratch.  Just some nice new characters and tracks, some nice new
gameplay features, and plausibly a GUI overhaul.  And you're complaining
about that?  *shakes head*

> IMHO, GoTM has to go back to the original ToDo list that was voted
> on - and confine themselves to improving what's there rather than
> tossing everything out and starting again.

*sighs*

Perhaps you should withdraw TuxKart from GotM because you don't want
your precious work being improved in something that differs very, very
slightly from the way in which you imagined.  It's not like we're here
to break the game, we're here to improve it.

> One of GoTM's bullet items when choosing a game to work on is the
> cooperation of the original author/maintainer.   I can tell you that,
> my cooperation level is plunging - you guys are doing a fine job
> of pissing off the person who single-handedly got the game to the
> point where people liked it enough to overwhelmingly vote for it.
> 
> All of those people didn't vote for your private visions of the
> game - because those visions were never expressed prior to the
> vote.  They voted to improve what they already saw and liked.

We _are_ all those people.  We _all_ voted.  We _expressed_ our desires
and visions prior to voting, and are continuing to evolve them.  I
honestly see no deviation from the forums in the conversations that have
continued on the mailing list, other than you becoming weirdly hostile.

Private visions... opinions... that's what GotM is all about.  We're not
slaves.  We're not here to do your bidding.  We all have ideas and
imaginations and the whole concept of GotM is to utilize that
consolidated creativity.  You cannot control or limit it.  If you wanted
such fine grained control then wtf did you agree to GotM in the first
place?  You seem an intelligent guy.  Did you really think we were a
group of people who would just do what you told us?

> Well, let's do exactly that - and not toss it all out and start
> again from zero.

Nobody said do that.  We can't use the original karts as they're all the
same and too simple.  We're adding new characters that the group all
liked.  I'm sure people will use the existing tracks as a base for
building both improved tracks and new ones.  The GUI... well, just let
other people come up with something before deciding that everybody but
you is wrong.
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC Meeting?

[philippe <phi...@vi...>]

Steve Baker wrote:

> Looks like Sunday is a bust then - too many No's and an awful lot
> of people who havn't replied at all.
>
> ---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
> HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
> Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
>            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
> V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 - digital 
> self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches, unmatched 
> networking opportunities. Visit www.blackhat.com
> _______________________________________________
> Tuxkart-devel mailing list
> Tux...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
>
Well, I said No but finaly I can. What server and channel ??

Re: [TuxKart-devel] IRC Meeting?

[philippe <phi...@vi...>]

Steve Baker wrote:

> Looks like Sunday is a bust then - too many No's and an awful lot
> of people who havn't replied at all.
>
> ---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
> HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
> HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
> Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
>            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
> GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
> V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training.
> Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 - digital 
> self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches, unmatched 
> networking opportunities. Visit www.blackhat.com
> _______________________________________________
> Tuxkart-devel mailing list
> Tux...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tuxkart-devel
>
No.

Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Charles G. <ch...@ve...>]

On Sat, 2004-07-03 at 12:04 -0500, Steve Baker wrote:
> Please discuss.

You're overreacting and making things seem more extreme than they are.

Track size and length is up to the people who design / make the tracks.
We can group together shorter tracks vs. longer tracks.

The karts... well, you're way out of line on this one.  You're
incredibly harsh on Ingo's _early_ designs.  I don't see you or anybody
else producing anything yet.  He's only done the very basics, he's not
declared any of them to be finished models.  Don't like 'em?  Take one
of his models and modify it a bit then, show us what you would like.
It's not like the karts in TuxKart are anything other than plain and all
the same.  Whilst Ingo's designs might not yet satisfy your wildest
hopes and dreams, they are a _massive_ improvement on what exists.

The GUI does need work for it to compliment the game.  I'm sorry if you
feel it doesn't, but everybody except you has expressed a preference for
a different type of GUI.  Are we all wrong and you right?  Of course,
nobody is 100% right, but if people are prepared to put in the work and
produce a polished, snazzy GUI then why the f... are you complaining?

It's not like we have ripped TuxKart apart and put in half-baked bits
into the game.  It's not like anything other than design and ideas has
been done yet.  You might think you were trying to be clever and 'nip it
in the bud' but instead it was like the response of a spoilt child.

Steve, that was a pompous rant by you.  It really was.  I hope Ingo and
others do not rise to the flames within it.
-- 
- Charlie

Charles Goodwin <ch...@ve...>
Online @ www.charlietech.com

[TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

As must already be very aparrent, I'm not a happy camper.  Just
about everything that's been discussed here since the GoTM vote
has been 180 degrees away from where I think it should be going.

It's increasingly aparrent that for many people here, the idea of
improving and extending TuxKart has somehow changed into a desire
to essentially throw away EVERYTHING that currently exists and start
what is an entirely new game.

1) Ingo's is clearly of the view that he wants a fairly 'normal'
    GoKart racing game.  TuxKart is not intended to be that.

    His models (whilst very nice) are of essentially standard
    go-karts and not the wilder designs of games like DoubleDash
    and others of the 'krazy kart' genre.

    He's also expressed (in the Wikki section on tracks) that he
    wants more normal tracks - shorter laps and a greater emphasis
    on kart driving with less on the gadgets, powerups and collectibles
    that are also the trademark of the genre I have in mind.

    He also wants much shorter laps - I feel the ones we currently have
    are already too short (again - compared to other games of this
    genre).  What he is suggesting is true to what real go-kart racing
    is all about - but very far from what go kart games are like.

2) Changing the GUI entirely.  Well, I can at least understand the
    logic behind this (although I still disagree with it) - but I think
    it's out of scope for the GoTM effort - it wasn't even mentioned
    in the ToDo lists that people voted on.  But - OK - those aren't
    meant to chain us down.

3) Characters:  Several people have argued to throw out all of the
    existing characters (with the possible exception of Tux).  Fine,
    but unnecessary in my view.  This too was not something that came
    up in the "ToDo" list or the pre-vote discussions.

4) Tracks:  Do we intend to improve the existing tracks and add more,
    or toss out all of them and make entirely new ones?   I kinda get
    the feeling from reading Wiki and peoples comments that the latter
    is the basic intent.

If all of these things come to pass - along with the (very needed) AI
and physics changes - then there is NOTHING left of the original game.

You might as well leave TuxKart alone and write an entirely new game
from scratch.   This is fine by me - but there is no chance in hell
you'll get it finished in two months.

IMHO, GoTM has to go back to the original ToDo list that was voted
on - and confine themselves to improving what's there rather than
tossing everything out and starting again.

One of GoTM's bullet items when choosing a game to work on is the
cooperation of the original author/maintainer.   I can tell you that,
my cooperation level is plunging - you guys are doing a fine job
of pissing off the person who single-handedly got the game to the
point where people liked it enough to overwhelmingly vote for it.

All of those people didn't vote for your private visions of the
game - because those visions were never expressed prior to the
vote.  They voted to improve what they already saw and liked.

Well, let's do exactly that - and not toss it all out and start
again from zero.

If the decision is to toss everything out and start again then
please create a new SourceForge account in order to do exactly
that and not tear TuxKart apart and leave a smoking ruin at the end
of two months - because that's exactly what'll happen if you try
to tear everything down and rebuild it.


Please discuss.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
GCS d-- s:+ a+ C++++$ UL+++$ P--- L++++$ E--- W+++ N o+ K? w--- !O M-
V-- PS++ PE- Y-- PGP-- t+ 5 X R+++ tv b++ DI++ D G+ e++ h--(-) r+++ y++++
-----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----