Re: [TuxKart-devel] The nature of this game.

[Steve B. <sjb...@ai...>]

Charles Goodwin wrote:

> Ingo's view is a proactive one.  He's done sketches, and created 3D
> models based on those sketches.  All of them have different karts.
> Maybe not wildly different, but until somebody helps or provides an
> alternative, and until he has them in what he considers a final state
> (he hasn't even textured them!?) then this is an unfair assertion.

I have tried to explain the problem with them - buy all I'm seeing
is more of the same.  I don't need to see them textured to know that
they are not what the game needs.

It's not just a matter of artistic interpretation either - I've worked
on this game for quite some time - and I know as a matter of FACT that
karts need to be much more easily distinguished - and that they need to
look more visually interesting from behind.  It almost doesn't matter
what they look like from the front and sides.

I keep explaining this - and all I'm seeing are karts that (when seen
at actual game resolutions, speeds and distances) look pretty similar.
Things will only get worse as we add effects like dust and smoke to
obscure them further.

I've been doing 3D graphics (and games) since the mid 1980's - and my
job (flight simulation) has a lot to do with how people recognise
targets at distance on 3D graphic displays.  This isn't just idle
supposition.

Now go look again at the link I posted from the Wacky Racers cartoon
or the MarioKart DoubleDash - and think about how much easier those
are to recognise and what animation possibilities they present for
makeing things interesting from behind.

> You have had ample opportunity to show us sketches and plans for what
> you need.  "More like this game" is just not good enough if you want
> people to model your ideas.

I'm not an artist - I don't make good 3D models - I'm a programmer.
However, that doesn't mean I don't know how the game needs to look.
Whilst I may not be able to sketch or model the kind of thing I have
in mind, I can point to other things (as I've done repeatedly) and
say "I think we need something more like this." - if I could actually
DO the 3D modelling, TuxKart would have the models I would like to
see and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

> His are the only decent contributions thus far.

(Actually, my son contributed that BSOD kart earlier as a 'sketch'
for something a bit more interesting).

However, yes - these are the only contributions so far - but I need
to say that these are not (in my opinion) the kinds of thing we need.

> Assert your authority.

I don't have 'authority' - this is an OpenSource effort - we proceed
by consensus or not at all - which is why I presented my viewpoint
as clearly as possible and asked for some discussion.

If I had authority, then my repeated assertions that these karts are

a) Not 'wild' enough.
...and...
b) Too boring from behind.

...would have resulted in someone building some wilder karts that look
more interesting from behind rather than a procession of very similar
looking things that look almost identical from behind (at realistic
ranges and resolutions).

> Ingo is not demanding or forcing the issue, just
> expressing a preference and opinion.  Are we not allowed opinions?  Or
> are we not allowed opinions that differ from yours?

Of course people should express opinions...isn't that what I just did?

What concerns me it that the general thrust is 180 degrees away from
the general direction that TuxKart is intended to take.  Without some
sort of common 'direction', we'll pull in opposite directions and make
no progress.

> No chains, so let people work on what they want to work on.  If the end
> result is an improvement, then you win.  If not, you get to keep the old
> GUI.  No loss.  Why are you complaining about a no-lose situation?

Because with finite effort and limited time, we should channel our efforts
where it's most needed.

> Everybody has happily agreed to stick with Gown.

No - they havn't - VERY far from it.

That move to radically change her 'look' is PARTICULARLY upsetting because
I had gone to all that trouble to find out what female gamers would actually
prefer to see for Tux's female counterpart.   The only pressure to change
her is some people's desire to change things for change's sake.

> You have to admit that
> BSOD and Geeky are hardly charismatic characters.

I already agreed that Geeko has to go.  I disagree about BSOD - but OTOH,
I don't see how an ice-cube is any better!  So, dumping BSOD and using
the stupid ice-cube is *CLEARLY* change for change's sake.  It subtracts
interest rather than adding to it.

Some of the new characters are very good.  I love Sushi the Octopus and
Mozilla is coming along OK too.

> The current tracks suck.  Sorry, they do.  Yes, they could be improved
> upon, but that's the choice of whomever works on them.  If somebody
> provides a lovely, fancy set of cool new tracks then are you going to
> reject them purely because they are not an evolution of the old tracks?

No - but I'll be VERY suprised if we get quality tracks in sufficient quantity
to fulfil all of our needs.  Fixing up some of the existing tracks is one way
to do more with less effort...tossing some of them out is certainly necessary,
tossing all of them out just isn't feasible.

> You can only guide volunteers, not control them.  You should be grateful
> for their contributions if said contributions are an improvement.  Do
> not judge the GotM work before we have done some.  We are not stupid
> people and will not force sub-standard content upon TuxKart.

It's not the *standard* of the content - it's the *direction* of the
content...away from a wild game with crazy looking karts and nice long,
cutesy looking tracks - towards a very basic go-kart simulation with
animals driving the karts instead of humans.

> Perhaps you should withdraw TuxKart from GotM because you don't want
> your precious work being improved in something that differs very, very
> slightly from the way in which you imagined.  It's not like we're here
> to break the game, we're here to improve it.

I have been very careful to say that I'm happy to have things improved
upon, more characters, more tracks.  What disturbs me is major changes
in direction and in the fundamental character of the game.

> We _are_ all those people.

No - you aren't.

44 people voted for TuxKart.  20 people joined the mailing list.  4 became
developers.  Those 4 people are less than 10% of the people who voted.

> I honestly see no deviation from the forums in the conversations that have
> continued on the mailing list, other than you becoming weirdly hostile.

There was NO discussion of taming the game down and turning it into a regular
gokart game.

I did think GoTM's philosophy was to get in quick - do some quick
fixes that could reasonably be managed in a couple of months - then move
on.  I did not expect a major turn of direction - or such major redesign
of the parts of the game (like the GUI) that work just fine - or which
could be evolved at some later time.

If I had some kind of mystical authority here, I would be directing
people as follows:

* We need are some much more INTERESTING karts - not simply karts
   with a lot more polygons that still look kinda similar.  Stop working
   on all of the karts we have now - build more radical designs.

* We need better tracks - more complex, longer, more interesting - NOT
   shorter and simpler.  Plan on every track being AT LEAST a couple of
   kilometers long...preferably more like four kilometers - so we can
   get lap durations in the 60 to 90 second range with karts travelling
   at 60 to 120mph.  Sketch out some track plans, make lists of objects
   like trees, barrels, animals, volcanoes, castles...etc.

* We need more emphasis on the fun aspects of picking up stuff and
   dropping/shooting/throwing at each other - and LESS emphasis on
   it being a pure racing game.  Think new weapons, gadgets, fun things
   that each character and each kart can do that's different and special.
   Make a list of those for each character - make sure the artwork and
   these effects tie together.

* We need programming effort on special effects, animation, AI and
   Physics - NOT GUI.

That's what (IMHO) was expected at the outset when those 44 people
voted for TuxKar as the GoTM.

---------------------------- Steve Baker -------------------------
HomeEmail: <sjb...@ai...>    WorkEmail: <sj...@li...>
HomePage : http://www.sjbaker.org
Projects : http://plib.sf.net    http://tuxaqfh.sf.net
            http://tuxkart.sf.net http://prettypoly.sf.net
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