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From: Iwan G. <qu...@gm...> - 2013-05-30 23:06:36
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Hi, Note: Jasmine and Ishmael, your opinions regarding this topic are high in demand. :) let's discuss the car textures and the changes to car branding and advertisements in svn. I created replacements for the old car textures. They look like this: http://i.imgur.com/PcefLys.jpg There was some discussion in https://sourceforge.net/p/trigger-rally/discussion/527953/thread/301aea42/?limit=25#8556already. The (old) Evo, Seat and Focus textures are non-free: the images are from unknown sources (copyright infringement) and they contain lots of trademarks. I created replacements with fictional car brands/names (cordon, eva, fox) and advertisements based on FOSS project names and FOSS command line tools. My position is that copyright and trademark law needs to be followed without a company having to complain first. I also oppose giving advertisement to non-free products/projects. Using non-free trademarks gives the brand owners power over Trigger Rally in being able to require it to change the use of the trademark. Not to speak of the power of being advertised to Trigger Rally players. I do not agree with a "let's deal with it if it comes to it" sentiment, I believe the project should own what it consists of, which is part of why I'm invested into replacing all copyright-questionable files (hopefully there won't be any before the next release). Fictional brands and ads are fine for me. I don't insist on the names, logos and replacement-ads that I chose but would prefer to keep them. Looking forward to hearing your position. :) Cheers, Iwan |
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From: Jasmine K. <jk...@co...> - 2013-05-30 23:44:48
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That sounds like a reasonable position, and the textures look great! Perhaps it would be better not to include a date on the car licence plates though? - Jasmine On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Iwan Gabovitch <qu...@gm...> wrote: > Hi, > > Note: Jasmine and Ishmael, your opinions regarding this topic are high in > demand. :) > > let's discuss the car textures and the changes to car branding and > advertisements in svn. > > I created replacements for the old car textures. They look like this: > http://i.imgur.com/PcefLys.jpg > > There was some discussion in > https://sourceforge.net/p/trigger-rally/discussion/527953/thread/301aea42/?limit=25#8556already. > > The (old) Evo, Seat and Focus textures are non-free: the images are from > unknown sources (copyright infringement) and they contain lots of > trademarks. I created replacements with fictional car brands/names (cordon, > eva, fox) and advertisements based on FOSS project names and FOSS command > line tools. > > My position is that copyright and trademark law needs to be followed > without a company having to complain first. I also oppose giving > advertisement to non-free products/projects. > > Using non-free trademarks gives the brand owners power over Trigger Rally > in being able to require it to change the use of the trademark. Not to > speak of the power of being advertised to Trigger Rally players. I do not > agree with a "let's deal with it if it comes to it" sentiment, I believe > the project should own what it consists of, which is part of why I'm > invested into replacing all copyright-questionable files (hopefully there > won't be any before the next release). > > Fictional brands and ads are fine for me. I don't insist on the names, > logos and replacement-ads that I chose but would prefer to keep them. > > Looking forward to hearing your position. :) > > Cheers, > Iwan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET > Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost. > Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead > Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1 > _______________________________________________ > trigger-rally-devel mailing list > tri...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-devel > > |
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From: Liviu A. <liv...@my...> - 2013-06-02 18:47:24
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Dear all, On Fri, 31 May 2013 01:15:35 +0200, Jasmine Kent <jk...@co...> wrote: > That sounds like a reasonable position, and the textures look great! > The textures look great, indeed. And we should definitely rid ourselves of the ads for proprietary products on the original textures. However I have some reservations about the car name changes. First and foremost, I do not see a compelling reason to change the current names (Seat Cordoba; Ford Focus; Mitsubishi Evolution). Even if the car names are indeed trademarked (but having little legal training I'm still wondering if this is indeed the case, as in "how do you trademark Cordoba?"), they are also often used in many contexts without disclaimers, as if they were in the public domain. How many movies use actual cars (not just car names), most likely without the need to explicitly ask for the consent of each manufacturer? But beyond that, the harsh truth is that our project is a hobby: we're neither a commercial product nor a manufacturer. We don't have any revenue stream to speak of, and in this sense we do not make money by piggybacking on trademarked material. At worst we're irrelevant as far as manufacturers are concerned; at best we improve the visibility of their products within the open-source community. So, with this in mind, I fail to see how "using non-free trademarks gives the brand owners power over Trigger". Was it ever the case until now? If a manufacturer complains (very unlikely), then we simply remove any reference to their car. Other than that, what litigation are we liable to? We don't damage manufacturers' brand image, and we don't make money out of their trademarks. What risks are there? Unless we hear the opinion of a legal expert in this field, once more I don't see a good reason to change the names. Moreover, how do other open-source projects approach this issue? If I look at TORCS ( http://torcs.sourceforge.net/ ), a project plausibly more popular than Trigger, I see that they cheerfully use the Lotus Elise GT1, Peugeot 406 and Ford Focus WRC car names ( http://torcs.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/torcs/torcs/torcs/data/cars/models/ ). Also see this list: http://www.berniw.org/trb/cars/carlist.php . Did you try to contact them to see why they were doing it? Why would it be OK for them to use actual car names, but not for us? Now please don't take me wrong. I'm not absolutely against changing our car names for fictional ones. But doing so takes all the fun out of Trigger Rally, so as far as I'm concerned there should a be a damn good reason for doing it. Although I'm an avid follower of things open-source, I'm also against a religious approach where we strive towards absolute purity ("don't be more catholic than the Pope"); we have enough of that in the real world. So we should carefully and pragmatically weigh the pros and cons, risks and benefits of each course of action. If we decide to go the way of a change in the status quo, I'd like that we reach some sort of consensus (even if grumbling) among the developers. I for one am still utterly unconvinced of the need or interest to switch to fictional car names in our rally game. If anything, I think this would be damaging as the invented car names would make the game feel more like a SuperTuxKart-type rather than a rally-type game, and I don't want that. If anyone around here has a clear picture of all this legalese, please air your arguments. > Perhaps it would be better not to include a date on the car licence > plates > though? > Indeed, I missed this detail. We don't want the plates to be outdated in 2014.. ;) Regards, Liviu > - Jasmine > > > > On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Iwan Gabovitch <qu...@gm...> > wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Note: Jasmine and Ishmael, your opinions regarding this topic are high >> in >> demand. :) >> >> let's discuss the car textures and the changes to car branding and >> advertisements in svn. >> >> I created replacements for the old car textures. They look like this: >> http://i.imgur.com/PcefLys.jpg >> >> There was some discussion in >> https://sourceforge.net/p/trigger-rally/discussion/527953/thread/301aea42/?limit=25#8556already. >> >> The (old) Evo, Seat and Focus textures are non-free: the images are from >> unknown sources (copyright infringement) and they contain lots of >> trademarks. I created replacements with fictional car brands/names >> (cordon, >> eva, fox) and advertisements based on FOSS project names and FOSS >> command >> line tools. >> >> My position is that copyright and trademark law needs to be followed >> without a company having to complain first. I also oppose giving >> advertisement to non-free products/projects. >> >> Using non-free trademarks gives the brand owners power over Trigger >> Rally >> in being able to require it to change the use of the trademark. Not to >> speak of the power of being advertised to Trigger Rally players. I do >> not >> agree with a "let's deal with it if it comes to it" sentiment, I believe >> the project should own what it consists of, which is part of why I'm >> invested into replacing all copyright-questionable files (hopefully >> there >> won't be any before the next release). >> >> Fictional brands and ads are fine for me. I don't insist on the names, >> logos and replacement-ads that I chose but would prefer to keep them. >> >> Looking forward to hearing your position. :) >> >> Cheers, >> Iwan >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET >> Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost. >> Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead >> Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1 >> _______________________________________________ >> trigger-rally-devel mailing list >> tri...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-devel >> >> -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
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From: Iwan G. <qu...@gm...> - 2013-07-11 17:43:09
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Hi, I first noticed trademark issues in games when playing Counter-Strike as a teenager. In one update all gun names changed into fake ones. I was quite frustrated. On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Liviu Andronic <liv...@my...>wrote: > > The textures look great, indeed. And we should definitely rid ourselves of > the ads for proprietary products on the original textures. However I have > some reservations about the car name changes. > I would like to point out that having real brands on TR cars is similar to advertising these brands. > First and foremost, I do not see a compelling reason to change the current > names (Seat Cordoba; Ford Focus; Mitsubishi Evolution). Even if the car > names are indeed trademarked (but having little legal training I'm still > wondering if this is indeed the case, as in "how do you trademark > Cordoba?"), they are also often used in many contexts without disclaimers, > as if they were in the public domain. How many movies use actual cars (not > just car names), most likely without the need to explicitly ask for the > consent of each manufacturer? > There should be no doubt about that "Seat", "Cordoba", "Ford", "Focus", "Mitsubishi" and "Evolution" can be protected by trademark registration in most countries of the world (e.g. USA and all of EU) in the context of automobiles and that they are being protected. I tried finding some of the names in the US trademark database, but didn't manage using the website, too many results. http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/ I found an easier-to-find name: Lamborghini Gallardo. Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/9jfmkfE.png (the horrible US trademark website does not make direct links possible) The car manufacturers of course claim that their brands are protected by trademark and require permission for use: http://www.seat.co.uk/content/uk/brand/en/legal-note.html http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/terms.do http://www.ford.co.uk/Footer/TermsAndConditions In a recent free software related talk on trademarks it is mentioned, in the context of software names, that there is a legal trend that permission is required. http://faif.us/cast/2013/may/07/0x3C/ (34:15 - 35:15) - this is hardly related but there is nothing closer that I would know of out there. But beyond that, the harsh truth is that our project is a hobby: we're > neither a commercial product nor a manufacturer. We don't have any revenue > stream to speak of, and in this sense we do not make money by piggybacking > on trademarked material. At worst we're irrelevant as far as manufacturers > are concerned; at best we improve the visibility of their products within > the open-source community. So, with this in mind, I fail to see how "using > non-free trademarks gives the brand owners power over Trigger". Was it ever > the case until now? If a manufacturer complains (very unlikely), then we > simply remove any reference to their car. Other than that, what litigation > are we liable to? We don't damage manufacturers' brand image, and we don't > make money out of their trademarks. What risks are there? Unless we hear > the opinion of a legal expert in this field, once more I don't see a good > reason to change the names. > We want Trigger Rally to be distributed by Debian. For that it needs to be free. Debian is not a hobby. The trademark-defending party does not have to give warnings. There are patent, trademark and copyright trolls out there that sue without warning. The party that might want to damage free games are proprietary games who payed as part of a license contract to car makers that they are allowed to use their car brands. They might demand from the maker that they prevent free projects from using the brands for free, which they had to pay for or else they stop paying. Moreover, how do other open-source projects approach this issue? If I look > at TORCS ( http://torcs.sourceforge.net/ ), a project plausibly more > popular than Trigger, I see that they cheerfully use the Lotus Elise GT1, > Peugeot 406 and Ford Focus WRC car names ( http://torcs.cvs.sourceforge.** > net/viewvc/torcs/torcs/torcs/**data/cars/models/<http://torcs.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/torcs/torcs/torcs/data/cars/models/>). Also see this list: > http://www.berniw.org/trb/**cars/carlist.php<http://www.berniw.org/trb/cars/carlist.php>. > Did you try to contact them to see why they were doing it? Why would it be > OK for them to use actual car names, but not for us? > I didn't contact them. I don't think it is okay to use trademarked product names without permission. I would suggest to any project not to use trademarked names. Now please don't take me wrong. I'm not absolutely against changing our car > names for fictional ones. But doing so takes all the fun out of Trigger > Rally, so as far as I'm concerned there should a be a damn good reason for > doing it. Although I'm an avid follower of things open-source, I'm also > against a religious approach where we strive towards absolute purity > ("don't be more catholic than the Pope"); we have enough of that in the > real world. To me, it takes out fun of a game by seeing ads and seeing car brands, which have been able to infect consumers' brains to a degree that consumers think that something is wrong, if the car brands are missing. > So we should carefully and pragmatically weigh the pros and cons, risks > and benefits of each course of action. If we decide to go the way of a > change in the status quo, I'd like that we reach some sort of consensus > (even if grumbling) among the developers. I for one am still utterly > unconvinced of the need or interest to switch to fictional car names in our > rally game. If anything, I think this would be damaging as the invented car > names would make the game feel more like a SuperTuxKart-type rather than a > rally-type game, and I don't want that. I was frustrated about Counter-Strike removing gun names but they did what they had to do legally. We should neither use marks without permission, nor promote non-free marks. If anyone around here has a clear picture of all this legalese, please air > your arguments. > > Perhaps it would be better not to include a date on the car licence plates > >> though? >> >> Indeed, I missed this detail. We don't want the plates to be outdated in > 2014.. ;) > > I got the inspiration for the new textures from the old ones. They contained a year (2004 on the evo). I'll be glad to remove it. :) Cheers, Iwan Regards, > Liviu > > > > - Jasmine >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Iwan Gabovitch <qu...@gm...> >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> >>> Note: Jasmine and Ishmael, your opinions regarding this topic are high in >>> demand. :) >>> >>> let's discuss the car textures and the changes to car branding and >>> advertisements in svn. >>> >>> I created replacements for the old car textures. They look like this: >>> http://i.imgur.com/PcefLys.jpg >>> >>> There was some discussion in >>> https://sourceforge.net/p/**trigger-rally/discussion/** >>> 527953/thread/301aea42/?limit=**25#8556already<https://sourceforge.net/p/trigger-rally/discussion/527953/thread/301aea42/?limit=25#8556already> >>> . >>> >>> The (old) Evo, Seat and Focus textures are non-free: the images are from >>> unknown sources (copyright infringement) and they contain lots of >>> trademarks. I created replacements with fictional car brands/names >>> (cordon, >>> eva, fox) and advertisements based on FOSS project names and FOSS command >>> line tools. >>> >>> My position is that copyright and trademark law needs to be followed >>> without a company having to complain first. I also oppose giving >>> advertisement to non-free products/projects. >>> >>> Using non-free trademarks gives the brand owners power over Trigger Rally >>> in being able to require it to change the use of the trademark. Not to >>> speak of the power of being advertised to Trigger Rally players. I do not >>> agree with a "let's deal with it if it comes to it" sentiment, I believe >>> the project should own what it consists of, which is part of why I'm >>> invested into replacing all copyright-questionable files (hopefully there >>> won't be any before the next release). >>> >>> Fictional brands and ads are fine for me. I don't insist on the names, >>> logos and replacement-ads that I chose but would prefer to keep them. >>> >>> Looking forward to hearing your position. :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Iwan >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>> ------------------ >>> Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET >>> Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost. >>> Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead >>> Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_**d2d_ap1<http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> trigger-rally-devel mailing list >>> trigger-rally-devel@lists.**sourceforge.net<tri...@li...> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/**lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-**devel<https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-devel> >>> >>> >>> > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > |
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From: Onsemeliot <ons...@ri...> - 2013-07-12 06:06:24
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Nice day! I'm still with Iwan here. (Thanks a lot for your research!) To me the strongest argument for fake names is the desire to spread Trigger with Debian since even Firefox needed to be renamed because of a not entirely free license. It's a miracle how brand names could survive in games shipped with Debian this long. I won't wake sleeping dogs where I'm not involved, but in Trigger Rally we can set things right now. I myself encountered severe difficulties by doing desktop design proposals for Debian wheezy for example. This was before the legal status of the official Debian logo was cleared for that matter. It took many years to find a working solution for that alone... Best, Onsemeliot On Thu, 2013-07-11 at 19:43 +0200, Iwan Gabovitch wrote: > Hi, > > > I first noticed trademark issues in games when playing Counter-Strike > as a teenager. In one update all gun names changed into fake ones. I > was quite frustrated. > > > On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Liviu Andronic > <liv...@my...> wrote: > The textures look great, indeed. And we should definitely rid > ourselves of the ads for proprietary products on the original > textures. However I have some reservations about the car name > changes. > > > I would like to point out that having real brands on TR cars is > similar to advertising these brands. > > First and foremost, I do not see a compelling reason to change > the current names (Seat Cordoba; Ford Focus; Mitsubishi > Evolution). Even if the car names are indeed trademarked (but > having little legal training I'm still wondering if this is > indeed the case, as in "how do you trademark Cordoba?"), they > are also often used in many contexts without disclaimers, as > if they were in the public domain. How many movies use actual > cars (not just car names), most likely without the need to > explicitly ask for the consent of each manufacturer? > > > There should be no doubt about that "Seat", "Cordoba", "Ford", > "Focus", "Mitsubishi" and "Evolution" can be protected by trademark > registration in most countries of the world (e.g. USA and all of EU) > in the context of automobiles and that they are being protected. > > > I tried finding some of the names in the US trademark database, but > didn't manage using the website, too many results. > http://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/ > > > I found an easier-to-find name: Lamborghini Gallardo. > Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/9jfmkfE.png (the horrible US trademark > website does not make direct links possible) > > > The car manufacturers of course claim that their brands are protected > by trademark and require permission for use: > http://www.seat.co.uk/content/uk/brand/en/legal-note.html > http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/terms.do > http://www.ford.co.uk/Footer/TermsAndConditions > > > In a recent free software related talk on trademarks it is mentioned, > in the context of software names, that there is a legal trend that > permission is required. > http://faif.us/cast/2013/may/07/0x3C/ (34:15 - 35:15) - this is hardly > related but there is nothing closer that I would know of out there. > > > But beyond that, the harsh truth is that our project is a > hobby: we're neither a commercial product nor a manufacturer. > We don't have any revenue stream to speak of, and in this > sense we do not make money by piggybacking on trademarked > material. At worst we're irrelevant as far as manufacturers > are concerned; at best we improve the visibility of their > products within the open-source community. So, with this in > mind, I fail to see how "using non-free trademarks gives the > brand owners power over Trigger". Was it ever the case until > now? If a manufacturer complains (very unlikely), then we > simply remove any reference to their car. Other than that, > what litigation are we liable to? We don't damage > manufacturers' brand image, and we don't make money out of > their trademarks. What risks are there? Unless we hear the > opinion of a legal expert in this field, once more I don't see > a good reason to change the names. > > > We want Trigger Rally to be distributed by Debian. For that it needs > to be free. Debian is not a hobby. > > > The trademark-defending party does not have to give warnings. There > are patent, trademark and copyright trolls out there that sue without > warning. > > > The party that might want to damage free games are proprietary games > who payed as part of a license contract to car makers that they are > allowed to use their car brands. They might demand from the maker that > they prevent free projects from using the brands for free, which they > had to pay for or else they stop paying. > > > Moreover, how do other open-source projects approach this > issue? If I look at TORCS ( http://torcs.sourceforge.net/ ), a > project plausibly more popular than Trigger, I see that they > cheerfully use the Lotus Elise GT1, Peugeot 406 and Ford Focus > WRC car names > ( http://torcs.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/torcs/torcs/torcs/data/cars/models/ ). Also see this list: http://www.berniw.org/trb/cars/carlist.php . > Did you try to contact them to see why they were doing it? Why > would it be OK for them to use actual car names, but not for > us? > > > I didn't contact them. I don't think it is okay to use trademarked > product names without permission. I would suggest to any project not > to use trademarked names. > > > Now please don't take me wrong. I'm not absolutely against > changing our car names for fictional ones. But doing so takes > all the fun out of Trigger Rally, so as far as I'm concerned > there should a be a damn good reason for doing it. Although > I'm an avid follower of things open-source, I'm also against a > religious approach where we strive towards absolute purity > ("don't be more catholic than the Pope"); we have enough of > that in the real world. > > > To me, it takes out fun of a game by seeing ads and seeing car brands, > which have been able to infect consumers' brains to a degree that > consumers think that something is wrong, if the car brands are > missing. > > So we should carefully and pragmatically weigh the pros and > cons, risks and benefits of each course of action. If we > decide to go the way of a change in the status quo, I'd like > that we reach some sort of consensus (even if grumbling) among > the developers. I for one am still utterly unconvinced of the > need or interest to switch to fictional car names in our rally > game. If anything, I think this would be damaging as the > invented car names would make the game feel more like a > SuperTuxKart-type rather than a rally-type game, and I don't > want that. > > > I was frustrated about Counter-Strike removing gun names but they did > what they had to do legally. We should neither use marks without > permission, nor promote non-free marks. > > > If anyone around here has a clear picture of all this > legalese, please air your arguments. > > Perhaps it would be better not to include a date on the car > licence plates > though? > > Indeed, I missed this detail. We don't want the plates to be > outdated in 2014.. ;) > > I got the inspiration for the new textures from the old ones. They > contained a year (2004 on the evo). I'll be glad to remove it. :) > > > Cheers, > Iwan > > > Regards, > Liviu > > > > - Jasmine > > > > On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 1:06 AM, Iwan Gabovitch > <qu...@gm...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Note: Jasmine and Ishmael, your opinions > regarding this topic are high in > demand. :) > > let's discuss the car textures and the changes > to car branding and > advertisements in svn. > > I created replacements for the old car > textures. They look like this: > http://i.imgur.com/PcefLys.jpg > > There was some discussion in > https://sourceforge.net/p/trigger-rally/discussion/527953/thread/301aea42/?limit=25#8556already. > > The (old) Evo, Seat and Focus textures are > non-free: the images are from > unknown sources (copyright infringement) and > they contain lots of > trademarks. I created replacements with > fictional car brands/names (cordon, > eva, fox) and advertisements based on FOSS > project names and FOSS command > line tools. > > My position is that copyright and trademark > law needs to be followed > without a company having to complain first. I > also oppose giving > advertisement to non-free products/projects. > > Using non-free trademarks gives the brand > owners power over Trigger Rally > in being able to require it to change the use > of the trademark. Not to > speak of the power of being advertised to > Trigger Rally players. I do not > agree with a "let's deal with it if it comes > to it" sentiment, I believe > the project should own what it consists of, > which is part of why I'm > invested into replacing all > copyright-questionable files (hopefully there > won't be any before the next release). > > Fictional brands and ads are fine for me. I > don't insist on the names, > logos and replacement-ads that I chose but > would prefer to keep them. > > Looking forward to hearing your position. :) > > Cheers, > Iwan > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free > troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET > Get 100% visibility into your production > application - at no cost. > Code-level diagnostics for performance > bottlenecks with <2% overhead > Download for free and get started > troubleshooting in minutes. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1 > _______________________________________________ > trigger-rally-devel mailing list > tri...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ trigger-rally-devel mailing list tri...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-devel > > |
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From: Stefan P. <sis...@ub...> - 2013-07-12 18:48:57
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Hi folks, let me give a short introduction of myself: My name is Stefan Potyra, and I'm the Debian maintainer of trigger-rally. I've been taking care of packaging so far, back since 2006. I'm 34 nowadays and my daily job sadly doesn't give me much spare time to contribute to free software. Nonetheless, trigger is still on my radar and I'm very happy to see that upstream development is going on :). Thanks a lot for that great game! And thanks for bringing up that topic! If there's anything to improve with the Debian packaging, please let me know! On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 08:06:12AM +0200, Onsemeliot wrote: > Nice day! > > I'm still with Iwan here. (Thanks a lot for your research!) > > To me the strongest argument for fake names is the desire to spread > Trigger with Debian since even Firefox needed to be renamed because of a > not entirely free license. > > It's a miracle how brand names could survive in games shipped with > Debian this long. I won't wake sleeping dogs where I'm not involved, but > in Trigger Rally we can set things right now. To be honest, I don't have much clue about trademark law. Back then, copyrighted material (of 3rd party sources) certainly mattered... trademark law was not yet considered problematic, at least not to my best knowledge. As you point out, that situation has changed. Should we ask for guidance here? debian-legal [1] might have some input. P.S.: There are still two patches in the Debian package. Both deal to make it build using system libraries. One is about libglew, the other one about tinyxml (see [2]). I think both need some cleanup to have an opt-in configure option. Once I've got this done, I'd like to commit these upstream, unless there are objections of course. Btw.: Any help is appreciated :). Cheers, Stefan. -- [1]: <http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/> [2]: <http://patch-tracker.debian.org/package/trigger-rally/0.6.0-1> |
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From: Onsemeliot <ons...@ri...> - 2013-07-12 23:29:15
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Hi Stefan, nice to hear (or better read) from you. ;) I don't really know what you are dealing with, but I'm very happy, that you take care of Trigger Rally in Debian. So far I only contributed a punch of maps, two whole events, a xml tutorial for generating maps and a new logo icon. Right now I'm working on two new maps again... I hope you stick with Trigger Rally. I love it and it would be great if we can find a developer sooner or later in order to give the game some new momentum. Right now the possibilities are quite limited and adjusting settings means to edit configuration files. This isn't the best way to be attractive for non techies... Best, Onsemeliot On Fri, 2013-07-12 at 20:33 +0200, Stefan Potyra wrote: > Hi folks, > > let me give a short introduction of myself: > My name is Stefan Potyra, and I'm the Debian maintainer of trigger-rally. > I've been taking care of packaging so far, back since 2006. I'm 34 nowadays > and my daily job sadly doesn't give me much spare time to contribute > to free software. Nonetheless, trigger is still on my radar and I'm very > happy to see that upstream development is going on :). > > Thanks a lot for that great game! And thanks for bringing up that topic! > > If there's anything to improve with the Debian packaging, please let me know! > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 08:06:12AM +0200, Onsemeliot wrote: > > Nice day! > > > > I'm still with Iwan here. (Thanks a lot for your research!) > > > > To me the strongest argument for fake names is the desire to spread > > Trigger with Debian since even Firefox needed to be renamed because of a > > not entirely free license. > > > > It's a miracle how brand names could survive in games shipped with > > Debian this long. I won't wake sleeping dogs where I'm not involved, but > > in Trigger Rally we can set things right now. > > To be honest, I don't have much clue about trademark law. Back then, copyrighted > material (of 3rd party sources) certainly mattered... trademark law was not > yet considered problematic, at least not to my best knowledge. > > As you point out, that situation has changed. Should we ask for guidance here? > debian-legal [1] might have some input. > > P.S.: There are still two patches in the Debian package. Both deal to make it > build using system libraries. One is about libglew, the other one about tinyxml > (see [2]). > > I think both need some cleanup to have an opt-in configure option. Once I've got > this done, I'd like to commit these upstream, unless there are objections of > course. Btw.: Any help is appreciated :). > > Cheers, > Stefan. > -- > [1]: <http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/> > [2]: <http://patch-tracker.debian.org/package/trigger-rally/0.6.0-1> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > See everything from the browser to the database with AppDynamics > Get end-to-end visibility with application monitoring from AppDynamics > Isolate bottlenecks and diagnose root cause in seconds. > Start your free trial of AppDynamics Pro today! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=48808831&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ trigger-rally-devel mailing list tri...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/trigger-rally-devel |
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From: <liv...@my...> - 2013-07-20 08:50:58
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Dear Stefan, On Fri, Jul 12, 2013, at 08:33 PM, Stefan Potyra wrote: > If there's anything to improve with the Debian packaging, please let me > know! > Come to think about it, there is something that can be improved upon in the Debian packaging side of the project. I'm currently mulling setting up a PPA for daily builds for Ubuntu and I already have a working Launchpad mirror of the SVN ( https://code.launchpad.net/~landronimirc/trigger-rally/trunk ). But one big stumbling block for me is the peculiarity of the Debian packaging for Trigger. Whereas usually there is one *.orig.tar.gz archive for a project (e.g. trigger-rally-0.6.0.tar.bz2), that results in as many packages as necessary; for Trigger there are two non-standard *.orig.tar.gz archives: trigger-rally-0.6.0-data.tar.bz2 and trigger-rally-0.6.0-src.tar.bz2. Unfortunately this complicates matters for a daily PPA setup. How difficult would it be to tweak the packaging so as to use only one trigger-rally-0.6.0.orig.tar.bz2 source archive to output the trigger-rally and trigger-rally-data packages? Regards, Liviu |
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