Re: [Tm4j-developers] The Future of TM4Web

[Jack P. <jac...@th...>]

Kal,

I'm not sure that I was actually calling for a massive effort on your part, 
or, necessarily, on any individual's part to mount the giant horse that 
would take us into the CMS battlefield. Indeed, what with topic maps, maybe 
the game isn't content management at all; rather it might be subject 
management.

Rather, I think I was mostly pointing out that, in terms of mind share of 
users 'out there', we Java jockeys have a long way to go before we appear 
(appearances are nearly everything, these days) competitive.  There are 
some truly awesome Java-based CMS tools out there, none of which touches 
topic maps at all.

Overall, I return to my original point that there is really little if 
anything available in Java that one could call a complete Webportal system. 
I think my point was that your call for the future of TM4Web might be a 
useful starting point where the target is to enable other projects (e.g. 
DSpace, Cocoon, etc) to become, um, finished.

Cheers
Jack

At 02:21 PM 1/25/2003 +0000, Kal Ahmed wrote:
>Jack,
>
>Thanks for your reply. While I do agree with you that a simple content
>management system is still something that is missing from the open-source
>world, and also that topic maps have a role to play in such a system, I am
>not sure whether I could commit to starting on such a project  myself. The
>TM4J core code takes a fair amount of my time in terms of development and
>support. A new CMS really requires a technical architect/lead developer who
>can commit as much of their free time to it as possible to get off the ground
>- just the sheer amount of work that would be needed to make a 0.1 let alone
>a 1.0 release of such a system is something that I cannot really contemplate
>right now.
>
>However, what I do think would be a valuable contribution and a step in the
>right direction would be to gather together the combined experience of folks
>on this list (and others) who have started down the road of using topic maps
>as the organising principle for web content.
>
>I do agree with you that there is alot of the groundwork for a useful CMS
>application using TM4J to be built, I'm just not sure whether that should be
>the focus of TM4Web, or if it would not be better to create the hooks into
>existing web application frameworks that might allow others to develop such a
>system.
>
>However, I'm not closed to the possibility of working on such a system, 
>nor am
>I closed to the possibility of TM4Web turning into such a system, I'm just
>sceptical that that would happen without another developer joining with that
>as his or her primary focus.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kal
>
>PS - the Zope topic map system is a project on sourceforge
>http://sourceforge.net/projects/ztm - I haven't played with it yet though I
>will...perhaps doing so will change my mind!
>
>
>On Thursday 23 January 2003 16:02, Jack Park wrote:
> > Kal, you are not even close to "mad" contemplating this.  Here is why, in
> > my view:
> >
> > Recently, a bunch of friends and I were treated to a demonstration of Zope
> > with Plone.  I confess, it was awesome, something any Web developer would
> > drool over. I understand there's even a topic map engine for Zope in the
> > works.
> >
> > I was asked how come there isn't something equivalent in Javaland.  Well,
> > there is, almost, and it is Cocoon, or maybe JBoss, or maybe JBoss/Cocoon.
> > But, they are not even close.  Here is why I think that is so.
> >
> > The demonstration was given by a fellow who ostensibly is not a programmer.
> > He is a Web developer, probably skilled in HTML and so forth. The issue is
> > this: the work is already done. Install Zope, drop Plone into it, and you
> > pretty much have nearly everything you need. No need to get involved with
> > XML of any kind. Just go to the control panel and set things up the way you
> > want them.
> >
> > I would be more than happy to stand corrected, but for now, in my view,
> > there's nothing like that (in terms of completeness) running in Java.  If
> > Zope gets a potent topic map engine, then the floodgate of topic map
> > applications that I think lies waiting to open will do so.
> >
> >  From the standpoint of content management, there are a bunch of really
> > slick apps out there (dspace, wynona, etc) all of which are more than ready
> > for topic map implementation, none of which is as "light switch simple" as
> > the Zope/Plone ensemble.
> >
> > Therefore, I am very much interested in the kinds of things you are
> > speaking about here. Particularly, I look at it this way.
> >
> > JBoss advertises scalability. Cocoon advertises completeness. Put the two
> > together, strip out the unnecessary J2EE stuff, and you're quite close to a
> > good starting point. But, where are the applications?  There was an article
> > on building portals with Cocoon. That's a pretty good start. There's
> > supposed to be a Wiki for Cocoon. I haven't seen it working. There's
> > supposed to be a blog engine for Cocoon. I haven't seen it working.
> >
> > My view is, therefore, that we must strive to complete the ensemble of Web
> > applications available in Java, and do so with topic maps as the
> > underlying, centralizing glue that binds. TM4J strikes me as a powerful way
> > to make that happen.  What the world (according to Park) is waiting for is
> > a light-switch easy Webportal engine built around topic maps. No user of
> > that engine should ever have to touch HTML, XML, XTM, or any such
> > technology unless they want to. Zope/Plone is very close (but, no cigar
> > quite yet) to that level of development.
> >
> > The world (still according to Park) probably needs some of the collective
> > sensemaking ideas I have outlined elsewhere (e.g.
> > http://www.nexist.org/sc2002/). These should, I think, be built-in
> > functionality that resides as part of the topic map facility.
> >
> > The projects you enumerate below are, to me, clear evidence that we are
> > already aimed in the right direction.  What's missing? I think what's
> > missing is an attempt to integrate those and other emerging projects into a
> > light switch easy package.
> >
> > That's my 0.125 EUROs for the day.
> > Cheers
> > Jack
> >
> > At 11:11 AM 1/23/2003 +0000, Kal Ahmed wrote:
> > >Apologies for the cross-posting, I just wanted to be sure that I got
> > >everyone's attention ;-)
> > >
> > >A while ago, Florian Haas and Thomas Bauer contributed a package called
> > >TM4Web
> > >to the TM4J Project. This package contains a set of stylesheets for
> > >converting XTM syntax topic maps into a collection of HTML pages using the
> > >page-per-topic style of the TM4J.org website.
> > >
> > >Separately from that work, I had developed a template-based mechanism for
> > >creating HTML pages directly from a TM4J TopicMap which works both as a
> > >servlet and as a stand-alone application.
> > >
> > >Separately from that, I have played with Cocoon and the TM4Web stylesheets
> > > to create a little sample webapp that uses TM4J APIs to extract topic map
> > > fragments and TM4Web stylesheets to create the HTML output in a Cocoon
> > > processing pipe.
> > >
> > >Separately from *that*, Christoph Frolich, Niko Schmuck and Martin
> > >Stockhammer
> > >are working on TMNav which, while aimed more at the development of GUI
> > > tools, has a strong web application component with a WS interface and
> > > with a flexible abstraction and rendering process which would work well
> > > in a web application.
> > >
> > >Separately from all of that, I know that a number of people are using TM4J
> > > to create web applications using a wide variety of frameworks and
> > > toolkits.
> > >
> > >What we all have in common is that we are creating web applications for
> > >presenting and/or modifying topic maps in a browser, but we are taking
> > >different approaches with different focusses and different strenghts and
> > >weaknesses.
> > >
> > >My feeling is that this is all good.
> > >
> > >What I would like to do is to use TM4Web as a banner project for bringing
> > >together design approaches; patterns for rendering topic maps; utility
> > >classes and sample tools and applications all with the aim of making it
> > > easy for developers to find some starting point for their own
> > > applications.  This is quite a big undertaking and I would like to get an
> > > idea about how much support there is for this in the community.
> > >
> > >Do you think that this approach is a good idea, or would you prefer to see
> > >the
> > >TM4J project produce a single one-size-fits-all solution for topic maps on
> > >the web ?
> > >
> > >Do you have any experience and/or sample code which you might consider
> > >contributing to TM4Web ?
> > >
> > >Am I just mad for even contemplating this ? (probably)
> > >
> > >Any thoughts / opinions gratefully received.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >
> > >Kal
> > >
> > >--
> > >Kal Ahmed, techquila.com
> > >XML and Topic Map Consultancy
> > >
> > >e: ka...@te...
> > >p: +44 7968 529531
> > >w: www.techquila.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
> > Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
> >
> > Build smarter kids globally and you reduce the need for smarter bombs.
>
>--
>Kal Ahmed, techquila.com
>XML and Topic Map Consultancy
>
>e: ka...@te...
>p: +44 7968 529531
>w: www.techquila.com

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor

Build smarter kids globally and you reduce the need for smarter bombs.