Re: [Tm4j-developers] The Future of TM4Web

[Kal A. <ka...@te...>]

Jack,

Thanks for your reply. While I do agree with you that a simple content=20
management system is still something that is missing from the open-source=
=20
world, and also that topic maps have a role to play in such a system, I a=
m=20
not sure whether I could commit to starting on such a project  myself. Th=
e=20
TM4J core code takes a fair amount of my time in terms of development and=
=20
support. A new CMS really requires a technical architect/lead developer w=
ho=20
can commit as much of their free time to it as possible to get off the gr=
ound=20
- just the sheer amount of work that would be needed to make a 0.1 let al=
one=20
a 1.0 release of such a system is something that I cannot really contempl=
ate=20
right now.

However, what I do think would be a valuable contribution and a step in t=
he=20
right direction would be to gather together the combined experience of fo=
lks=20
on this list (and others) who have started down the road of using topic m=
aps=20
as the organising principle for web content.

I do agree with you that there is alot of the groundwork for a useful CMS=
=20
application using TM4J to be built, I'm just not sure whether that should=
 be=20
the focus of TM4Web, or if it would not be better to create the hooks int=
o=20
existing web application frameworks that might allow others to develop su=
ch a=20
system.

However, I'm not closed to the possibility of working on such a system, n=
or am=20
I closed to the possibility of TM4Web turning into such a system, I'm jus=
t=20
sceptical that that would happen without another developer joining with t=
hat=20
as his or her primary focus.

Cheers,

Kal

PS - the Zope topic map system is a project on sourceforge=20
http://sourceforge.net/projects/ztm - I haven't played with it yet though=
 I=20
will...perhaps doing so will change my mind!=20


On Thursday 23 January 2003 16:02, Jack Park wrote:
> Kal, you are not even close to "mad" contemplating this.  Here is why, =
in
> my view:
>
> Recently, a bunch of friends and I were treated to a demonstration of Z=
ope
> with Plone.  I confess, it was awesome, something any Web developer wou=
ld
> drool over. I understand there's even a topic map engine for Zope in th=
e
> works.
>
> I was asked how come there isn't something equivalent in Javaland.  Wel=
l,
> there is, almost, and it is Cocoon, or maybe JBoss, or maybe JBoss/Coco=
on.
> But, they are not even close.  Here is why I think that is so.
>
> The demonstration was given by a fellow who ostensibly is not a program=
mer.
> He is a Web developer, probably skilled in HTML and so forth. The issue=
 is
> this: the work is already done. Install Zope, drop Plone into it, and y=
ou
> pretty much have nearly everything you need. No need to get involved wi=
th
> XML of any kind. Just go to the control panel and set things up the way=
 you
> want them.
>
> I would be more than happy to stand corrected, but for now, in my view,
> there's nothing like that (in terms of completeness) running in Java.  =
If
> Zope gets a potent topic map engine, then the floodgate of topic map
> applications that I think lies waiting to open will do so.
>
>  From the standpoint of content management, there are a bunch of really
> slick apps out there (dspace, wynona, etc) all of which are more than r=
eady
> for topic map implementation, none of which is as "light switch simple"=
 as
> the Zope/Plone ensemble.
>
> Therefore, I am very much interested in the kinds of things you are
> speaking about here. Particularly, I look at it this way.
>
> JBoss advertises scalability. Cocoon advertises completeness. Put the t=
wo
> together, strip out the unnecessary J2EE stuff, and you're quite close =
to a
> good starting point. But, where are the applications?  There was an art=
icle
> on building portals with Cocoon. That's a pretty good start. There's
> supposed to be a Wiki for Cocoon. I haven't seen it working. There's
> supposed to be a blog engine for Cocoon. I haven't seen it working.
>
> My view is, therefore, that we must strive to complete the ensemble of =
Web
> applications available in Java, and do so with topic maps as the
> underlying, centralizing glue that binds. TM4J strikes me as a powerful=
 way
> to make that happen.  What the world (according to Park) is waiting for=
 is
> a light-switch easy Webportal engine built around topic maps. No user o=
f
> that engine should ever have to touch HTML, XML, XTM, or any such
> technology unless they want to. Zope/Plone is very close (but, no cigar
> quite yet) to that level of development.
>
> The world (still according to Park) probably needs some of the collecti=
ve
> sensemaking ideas I have outlined elsewhere (e.g.
> http://www.nexist.org/sc2002/). These should, I think, be built-in
> functionality that resides as part of the topic map facility.
>
> The projects you enumerate below are, to me, clear evidence that we are
> already aimed in the right direction.  What's missing? I think what's
> missing is an attempt to integrate those and other emerging projects in=
to a
> light switch easy package.
>
> That's my 0.125 EUROs for the day.
> Cheers
> Jack
>
> At 11:11 AM 1/23/2003 +0000, Kal Ahmed wrote:
> >Apologies for the cross-posting, I just wanted to be sure that I got
> >everyone's attention ;-)
> >
> >A while ago, Florian Haas and Thomas Bauer contributed a package calle=
d
> >TM4Web
> >to the TM4J Project. This package contains a set of stylesheets for
> >converting XTM syntax topic maps into a collection of HTML pages using=
 the
> >page-per-topic style of the TM4J.org website.
> >
> >Separately from that work, I had developed a template-based mechanism =
for
> >creating HTML pages directly from a TM4J TopicMap which works both as =
a
> >servlet and as a stand-alone application.
> >
> >Separately from that, I have played with Cocoon and the TM4Web stylesh=
eets
> > to create a little sample webapp that uses TM4J APIs to extract topic=
 map
> > fragments and TM4Web stylesheets to create the HTML output in a Cocoo=
n
> > processing pipe.
> >
> >Separately from *that*, Christoph Frolich, Niko Schmuck and Martin
> >Stockhammer
> >are working on TMNav which, while aimed more at the development of GUI
> > tools, has a strong web application component with a WS interface and
> > with a flexible abstraction and rendering process which would work we=
ll
> > in a web application.
> >
> >Separately from all of that, I know that a number of people are using =
TM4J
> > to create web applications using a wide variety of frameworks and
> > toolkits.
> >
> >What we all have in common is that we are creating web applications fo=
r
> >presenting and/or modifying topic maps in a browser, but we are taking
> >different approaches with different focusses and different strenghts a=
nd
> >weaknesses.
> >
> >My feeling is that this is all good.
> >
> >What I would like to do is to use TM4Web as a banner project for bring=
ing
> >together design approaches; patterns for rendering topic maps; utility
> >classes and sample tools and applications all with the aim of making i=
t
> > easy for developers to find some starting point for their own
> > applications.  This is quite a big undertaking and I would like to ge=
t an
> > idea about how much support there is for this in the community.
> >
> >Do you think that this approach is a good idea, or would you prefer to=
 see
> >the
> >TM4J project produce a single one-size-fits-all solution for topic map=
s on
> >the web ?
> >
> >Do you have any experience and/or sample code which you might consider
> >contributing to TM4Web ?
> >
> >Am I just mad for even contemplating this ? (probably)
> >
> >Any thoughts / opinions gratefully received.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Kal
> >
> >--
> >Kal Ahmed, techquila.com
> >XML and Topic Map Consultancy
> >
> >e: ka...@te...
> >p: +44 7968 529531
> >w: www.techquila.com
> >
> >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------
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> > http://www.vasoftware.com ___________________________________________=
____
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> >Tm4...@li...
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>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
> Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
>
> Build smarter kids globally and you reduce the need for smarter bombs.

--=20
Kal Ahmed, techquila.com
XML and Topic Map Consultancy

e: ka...@te...
p: +44 7968 529531
w: www.techquila.com