From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-11 20:43:44
|
Hello all, I'm using Timidity's tuning table process to implement alternate tunings. When I have a tuning that divides the octave by more than 12 notes then I end up losing octave ranges. For example, a 128-EDO would only have a 1 octave range. A 256-EDO would have a .5 octave range. I'm not a programmer so forgive my naivete, but would it be possible to extend how many notes Timidity can handle and also load larger tuning tables? For example, to get the full range of the 128-EDO tuning one would need about 1366 notes (10.6666666 octaves * 128 notes per octave). I'm using this in a program so it's all software based (ie, I'm not connecting to any instrument) if that helps. Thanks, Dave Bellows |
From: Bob v. d. P. <bo...@me...> - 2015-05-11 22:31:43
|
I don't think this is possible. Notes in MIDI are 4 bit values, and that means a range of 0-127. Only solution I can think of is to split your input into different channels and have, for example, channel 1 for the low stuff and 2 for the upper. That was you, can in theory, get 256 notes. All this depends on the program creating your MIDI. Timidity is NOT the problem :) Hope this helps. On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:43 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm using Timidity's tuning table process to implement alternate > tunings. When I have a tuning that divides the octave by more than 12 > notes then I end up losing octave ranges. For example, a 128-EDO would > only have a 1 octave range. A 256-EDO would have a .5 octave range. > > I'm not a programmer so forgive my naivete, but would it be possible > to extend how many notes Timidity can handle and also load larger > tuning tables? For example, to get the full range of the 128-EDO > tuning one would need about 1366 notes (10.6666666 octaves * 128 notes > per octave). > > I'm using this in a program so it's all software based (ie, I'm not > connecting to any instrument) if that helps. > > Thanks, > Dave Bellows > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y > _______________________________________________ > Timidity-talk mailing list > Tim...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/timidity-talk > -- **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** EMAIL: bo...@me... WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca |
From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-11 22:53:00
|
> I don't think this is possible. Notes in MIDI are 4 bit values, and that means a range of 0-127. OK, so what if the library I use to create MIDI files was altered to use a lot more bits for the notes thus extending the range? How difficult then would it be to extend Timidity to read those extra bits? > Only solution I can think of is to split your input into different channels and have, for example, channel 1 for the low stuff and 2 for the upper. That was you, can in theory, get 256 notes. That certainly helps but not doesn't get me nearly as many notes as I want. My only other idea was to create multiple tuning tables and create wav files loading the appropriate tuning table for each note's register and then stitching all those wav files together. I'm guessing this would be rather resource intensive (plus difficult to program for me). > Timidity is NOT the problem :) Timidity is very powerful, I'm just hoping I can make it a little more powerful! On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Bob van der Poel <bo...@me...> wrote: > I don't think this is possible. Notes in MIDI are 4 bit values, and that > means a range of 0-127. Only solution I can think of is to split your input > into different channels and have, for example, channel 1 for the low stuff > and 2 for the upper. That was you, can in theory, get 256 notes. All this > depends on the program creating your MIDI. > > Timidity is NOT the problem :) > > Hope this helps. > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 1:43 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> > wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> >> I'm using Timidity's tuning table process to implement alternate >> tunings. When I have a tuning that divides the octave by more than 12 >> notes then I end up losing octave ranges. For example, a 128-EDO would >> only have a 1 octave range. A 256-EDO would have a .5 octave range. >> >> I'm not a programmer so forgive my naivete, but would it be possible >> to extend how many notes Timidity can handle and also load larger >> tuning tables? For example, to get the full range of the 128-EDO >> tuning one would need about 1366 notes (10.6666666 octaves * 128 notes >> per octave). >> >> I'm using this in a program so it's all software based (ie, I'm not >> connecting to any instrument) if that helps. >> >> Thanks, >> Dave Bellows >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud >> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications >> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights >> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. >> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y >> _______________________________________________ >> Timidity-talk mailing list >> Tim...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/timidity-talk > > > > > -- > **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** > Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** > EMAIL: bo...@me... > WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca |
From: Bob v. d. P. <bo...@me...> - 2015-05-11 23:06:26
|
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:52 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: > > OK, so what if the library I use to create MIDI files was altered to > use a lot more bits for the notes thus extending the range? How > difficult then would it be to extend Timidity to read those extra > bits? The midi standard is to use only 4 bits. What you are suggesting is just not possible using the midi protocol. Sorry to be the bringer of sad news :) -- **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** EMAIL: bo...@me... WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca |
From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-11 23:12:47
|
> The midi standard is to use only 4 bits. What you are suggesting is just not possible using the midi protocol. Sorry to be the bringer of sad news :) Well sure, I get that. So I guess what I was hoping to do was to extend the protocol. And since this would be a software only solution with no hardware involved (ie, not connecting to any MIDI devices) then it might be possible to create this extended MIDI format in the software. Or is there some other approach/solution using different software/protocols that anyone knows about? On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Bob van der Poel <bo...@me...> wrote: > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:52 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> > wrote: >> >> >> OK, so what if the library I use to create MIDI files was altered to >> use a lot more bits for the notes thus extending the range? How >> difficult then would it be to extend Timidity to read those extra >> bits? > > > The midi standard is to use only 4 bits. What you are suggesting is just not > possible using the midi protocol. Sorry to be the bringer of sad news :) > > -- > **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** > Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** > EMAIL: bo...@me... > WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca |
From: Matthew <cra...@ya...> - 2015-05-11 23:17:33
|
Could you do something with pitch bend? From: Bob van der Poel <bo...@me...> To: David Bellows <dav...@gm...> Cc: tim...@li... Sent: Tuesday, 12 May 2015, 0:06 Subject: Re: [timidity-talk] Extending Timidity's note range beyond 128 notes? On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:52 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: OK, so what if the library I use to create MIDI files was altered to use a lot more bits for the notes thus extending the range? How difficult then would it be to extend Timidity to read those extra bits? The midi standard is to use only 4 bits. What you are suggesting is just not possible using the midi protocol. Sorry to be the bringer of sad news :) -- **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** EMAIL: bo...@me... WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y _______________________________________________ Timidity-talk mailing list Tim...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/timidity-talk |
From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-11 23:26:21
|
> Could you do something with pitch bend? Originally I did. But my feeling was that using tuning tables was cleaner, somehow, or at least gave me finer control over the frequency values I want to generate. Plus, having multiple pitch bend values (like in the hundreds) for each note felt like it was going to be a very difficult thing to keep track of in my software and then manipulate musically. And then of course pitch bend applies to an entire channel so that creates other potential issues. Neither solution is ideal but I am hoping for something. On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Matthew <cra...@ya...> wrote: > Could you do something with pitch bend? > > ________________________________ > From: Bob van der Poel <bo...@me...> > To: David Bellows <dav...@gm...> > Cc: tim...@li... > Sent: Tuesday, 12 May 2015, 0:06 > Subject: Re: [timidity-talk] Extending Timidity's note range beyond 128 > notes? > > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 3:52 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> > wrote: > > > OK, so what if the library I use to create MIDI files was altered to > use a lot more bits for the notes thus extending the range? How > difficult then would it be to extend Timidity to read those extra > bits? > > > The midi standard is to use only 4 bits. What you are suggesting is just not > possible using the midi protocol. Sorry to be the bringer of sad news :) > > > > -- > **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** > Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** > EMAIL: bo...@me... > WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y > > _______________________________________________ > Timidity-talk mailing list > Tim...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/timidity-talk > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y > _______________________________________________ > Timidity-talk mailing list > Tim...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/timidity-talk > |
From: A. Z. <and...@co...> - 2015-05-12 00:17:18
|
On Mon, 11 May 2015 13:43:36 -0700 David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: > > I'm not a programmer so forgive my naivete, but would it be possible > to extend how many notes Timidity can handle and also load larger > tuning tables? For example, to get the full range of the 128-EDO > tuning one would need about 1366 notes (10.6666666 octaves * 128 notes > per octave). > I believe that the MIDI standard allows for single-note real-time sysex messages that can alter the pitch of any of the 128 note numbers. A 3-byte frequency resolution is possible which is a little better than one-hundredth of a cent: http://www.midi.org/techspecs/midituning.php I also believe that the Scala software can re-tune a midi file according to a microtonal scale using such single-note real-time sysex messages. http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/ The Scala software contains example scales with 79 notes per octave so your proposal of 1366 notes per scale may be feasible. Unfortunately I do not experiment in this area so I cannot provide any more detailed information. AZ |
From: A. Z. <and...@co...> - 2015-05-12 00:32:52
|
On Mon, 11 May 2015 20:16:56 -0400 "A. Zimmer" <and...@co...> wrote: > > The Scala software contains example scales with 79 notes per octave > so your proposal of 1366 notes per scale may be feasible. > Looking through the Scala scales archive, I see a file named "fortune.scl" which divides the octave into 612 steps, which is about half of your proposed 1366 steps. http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scales.zip If the Scala software can presumably re-tune a MIDI file with this scale then your proposed scale my also be possible. AZ |
From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-12 00:43:17
|
> I believe that the MIDI standard allows for single-note real-time sysex messages that can alter the pitch of any of the 128 note numbers. A 3-byte frequency resolution is possible which is a little better than one-hundredth of a cent: I keep reading the specs over and over and my mind just isn't comprehending. So let me run through this with you. The MIDI Tuning Standard allows one to change the frequency of an individual note, correct? And then assuming my MIDI library can send these sysex messages then I should be able to do this, with care. Each note event would carry with it a frequency tuning for that note. Is that what you're reading? > Looking through the Scala scales archive, I see a file named "fortune.scl" which divides the octave into 612 steps, which is about half of your proposed 1366 steps. Sure. Right now my software will create a Timidity tuning table that will divide the octave into any number. I just generated one that divides the octave into 10240 equal divisions but that means that it's only a fraction of an octave (128/10240). Getting Timidity to load a tuning table with more than 128 notes and read an "extended" MIDI file where the note range can go from 0-65000 (or whatever) instead of 0-127 is the trick. Generating huge tuning tables that Timidity can handle would be easier for me, I think, than sending a frequency value for each note (as in the above proposed solution), but maybe not. On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:32 PM, A. Zimmer <and...@co...> wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 2015 20:16:56 -0400 > "A. Zimmer" <and...@co...> wrote: > >> >> The Scala software contains example scales with 79 notes per octave >> so your proposal of 1366 notes per scale may be feasible. >> > > Looking through the Scala scales archive, I see a file named "fortune.scl" > which divides the octave into 612 steps, which is about half of your proposed > 1366 steps. > > http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scales.zip > > If the Scala software can presumably re-tune a MIDI file with this > scale then your proposed scale my also be possible. > > AZ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y > _______________________________________________ > Timidity-talk mailing list > Tim...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/timidity-talk |
From: Bob v. d. P. <bo...@me...> - 2015-05-12 01:06:13
|
On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: > > > Sure. Right now my software will create a Timidity tuning table that > will divide the octave into any number. I just generated one that > divides the octave into 10240 equal divisions but that means that it's > only a fraction of an octave (128/10240). Getting Timidity to load a > tuning table with more than 128 notes and read an "extended" MIDI file > where the note range can go from 0-65000 (or whatever) instead of > 0-127 is the trick. Generating huge tuning tables that Timidity can > handle would be easier for me, I think, than sending a frequency value > for each note (as in the above proposed solution), but maybe not. Just wondering: What is the point of this. You're creating notes with a difference between them of ~.05 hz. Are your ears good enough to hear the difference between these? -- **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** EMAIL: bo...@me... WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca |
From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-12 01:11:49
|
> Just wondering: What is the point of this. You're creating notes with a difference between them of ~.05 hz. Are your ears good enough to hear the difference between these? That's at the extremes. But even just using Harry Partch's 43-Tone tuning system reduces the available octave range to just under four octaves instead of the 10+ one normally gets with MIDI when using Timidity's tuning table method. I would like for someone to be able to generate a piece of music using any tuning they want and not be limited in the range that it produces. On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:06 PM, Bob van der Poel <bo...@me...> wrote: > > On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 5:43 PM, David Bellows <dav...@gm...> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Sure. Right now my software will create a Timidity tuning table that >> will divide the octave into any number. I just generated one that >> divides the octave into 10240 equal divisions but that means that it's >> only a fraction of an octave (128/10240). Getting Timidity to load a >> tuning table with more than 128 notes and read an "extended" MIDI file >> where the note range can go from 0-65000 (or whatever) instead of >> 0-127 is the trick. Generating huge tuning tables that Timidity can >> handle would be easier for me, I think, than sending a frequency value >> for each note (as in the above proposed solution), but maybe not. > > > Just wondering: What is the point of this. You're creating notes with a > difference between them of ~.05 hz. Are your ears good enough to hear the > difference between these? > > > > -- > **** Listen to my FREE CD at http://www.mellowood.ca/music/cedars **** > Bob van der Poel ** Wynndel, British Columbia, CANADA ** > EMAIL: bo...@me... > WWW: http://www.mellowood.ca |
From: A. Z. <and...@co...> - 2015-05-12 01:23:20
|
On Mon, 11 May 2015 17:43:10 -0700 David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: > The MIDI Tuning > Standard allows one to change the frequency of an individual note, > correct? And then assuming my MIDI library can send these sysex > messages then I should be able to do this, with care. Each note event > would carry with it a frequency tuning for that note. Is that what > you're reading? > Yes. AFAIK, something like this should be possible. A composition in 1366-ET would have to have a single-note SYSX message for each note. Also, AFAIK, the Scala software can produce a MIDI file containing such SYSEX single-note messages and this file should then be playable through TiMidity++. You'll have to research the Scala documentation to find out how this is done. As I mentioned, I am not active in this area but there are microtonalists who do go beyond the limitations of the standard MIDI format. AZ |
From: David B. <dav...@gm...> - 2015-05-12 18:37:38
|
> Yes. AFAIK, something like this should be possible. A composition in 1366-ET would have to have a single-note SYSX message for each note. This sounds doable if a bit unwieldy but it is better than my previous situation. > You'll have to research the Scala documentation to find out how this is done. My software has to be able to do everything itself and has to work with every crazy tuning imaginable so I won't be able to use Scala. But I am in contact with the person who created the MIDI library I'm using so maybe he'll be able to help me out from here -- I just need to send those sysex commands. Thanks! On Mon, May 11, 2015 at 6:22 PM, A. Zimmer <and...@co...> wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 2015 17:43:10 -0700 > David Bellows <dav...@gm...> wrote: > >> The MIDI Tuning >> Standard allows one to change the frequency of an individual note, >> correct? And then assuming my MIDI library can send these sysex >> messages then I should be able to do this, with care. Each note event >> would carry with it a frequency tuning for that note. Is that what >> you're reading? >> > > Yes. AFAIK, something like this should be possible. A composition > in 1366-ET would have to have a single-note SYSX message for each note. > > Also, AFAIK, the Scala software can produce a MIDI file containing > such SYSEX single-note messages and this file should then be playable > through TiMidity++. > > You'll have to research the Scala documentation to find out how > this is done. As I mentioned, I am not active in this area but > there are microtonalists who do go beyond the limitations of the > standard MIDI format. > > AZ > |