From: <M.H...@ja...> - 2001-04-03 09:57:23
|
Hi folks, I just read an article (=20 http://www.warnertechnology.com/Computers/Articles/copyright.shtml ) which = all of you should read. It made me think about our legal position and what = we can do to protect our work. I think we should contact a lawyer and ask him what to do to protect our=20 work here in Europe. I don't want a bad awakening when our source is=20 getting useful and getting interesting for others, so I think we should=20 act now to pretect ourselves. Xandi, I think this would be your issue since you are the founder of the=20 project. I might add that the European Patent Office is situated in=20 Munich, where I live, this could be good for us. The only real problem I'm seeing right now is money. Contacting a lawyer=20 will cost money and filing a copyright will cost money, too, at least=20 AFAIK. So the next question is how do we get legally respected as a group=20 ? Marc --- Thus spake the master programmer: "Let the programmer be many and the managers few -- then all will be=20 productive." --- Marc Haisenko Development JANET GmbH -the 3D business company- Garmischer Str.19/21 81377 M=FCnchen Phone: +49 (89) / 54 26 21 - 0 Fax: +49 (89) / 54 26 21 - 15 mailto: mha...@ja... http://www.janet.de |
From: Manfred M. <ib....@gm...> - 2001-04-03 10:23:06
|
Hallo, I can't see any problem if we sign each source files correct as GPLed. If anyone distributest our software for sold, who cares? The reason why KDE was not included in Debian, was this kind of problem with the source code. If we use consequently the GPL, we should not run in any problem. Greetings, KM-tfo > Hi folks, > I just read an article ( > http://www.warnertechnology.com/Computers/Articles/copyright.shtml ) which > > all of you should read. It made me think about our legal position and what > > we can do to protect our work. > I think we should contact a lawyer and ask him what to do to protect our > work here in Europe. I don't want a bad awakening when our source is > getting useful and getting interesting for others, so I think we should > act now to pretect ourselves. > Xandi, I think this would be your issue since you are the founder of the > project. I might add that the European Patent Office is situated in > Munich, where I live, this could be good for us. > The only real problem I'm seeing right now is money. Contacting a lawyer > will cost money and filing a copyright will cost money, too, at least > AFAIK. So the next question is how do we get legally respected as a group > ? > Marc > > --- > Thus spake the master programmer: > "Let the programmer be many and the managers few -- then all will be > productive." > --- > Marc Haisenko > Development > > JANET GmbH > -the 3D business company- > Garmischer Str.19/21 > 81377 München > > Phone: +49 (89) / 54 26 21 - 0 > Fax: +49 (89) / 54 26 21 - 15 > mailto: mha...@ja... > > http://www.janet.de > > > > _______________________________________________ > Threedsia-dev mailing list > Thr...@li... > http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/threedsia-dev > -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net |
From: Maurizio B. <ba...@de...> - 2001-04-03 10:31:14
|
On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 12:22:56PM +0200, Manfred Morgner wrote: > Hallo, > > I can't see any problem if we sign each source files correct as GPLed. If > anyone distributest our software for sold, who cares? The reason why KDE was > not included in Debian, was this kind of problem with the source code. If we > use consequently the GPL, we should not run in any problem. > > Greetings, > KM-tfo > > > > Hi folks, > > I just read an article ( > > http://www.warnertechnology.com/Computers/Articles/copyright.shtml ) which > > > > all of you should read. It made me think about our legal position and what > > > > we can do to protect our work. > > I think we should contact a lawyer and ask him what to do to protect our > > work here in Europe. I don't want a bad awakening when our source is > > getting useful and getting interesting for others, so I think we should > > act now to pretect ourselves. > > Xandi, I think this would be your issue since you are the founder of the > > project. I might add that the European Patent Office is situated in > > Munich, where I live, this could be good for us. > > The only real problem I'm seeing right now is money. Contacting a lawyer > > will cost money and filing a copyright will cost money, too, at least > > AFAIK. So the next question is how do we get legally respected as a group > > ? > > Marc Hi all, this problem (don't inclusion in debian) also happened to helix gnome distribution, their marks are copyrighted bye -- Maurizio Boriani -- System Administrator -- Debian developer http://www.debian.org/%7Ebaux/ PGP key: 0xCC0FBF8F fingerprint => E429 A37C 5259 763C 9DEE FC8B 5D61 C796 CC0F BF8F <= fingerprint |
From: <ch...@li...> - 2001-04-03 10:28:30
|
-snip- you can't have patents on Software in Europe, except you "attach" it to Hardware. Also Patents suck. Regards CD -- "Ihre Meinung ist mir zwar widerlich, aber ich werde mich dafuer totschlagen lassen, dass sie sie sagen duerfen." Voltair e-mail: chr...@li... Homepage: http://www.abyssos.de/ PGP-Key: http://chromedemon.liquidsteel.net PGP fingerprint: 4950 8576 778F DEDF 85D1 C04D 586F 2C45 E714 E13A |
From: Maurizio B. <ba...@de...> - 2001-04-03 10:32:04
|
On Tue, Apr 03, 2001 at 12:28:28PM +0200, Lars Weitze wrote: > -snip- > > you can't have patents on Software in Europe, except you "attach" it to Hardware. Also Patents suck. > > Regards > CD > -- agree anymore! -- Maurizio Boriani -- System Administrator -- Debian developer http://www.debian.org/%7Ebaux/ PGP key: 0xCC0FBF8F fingerprint => E429 A37C 5259 763C 9DEE FC8B 5D61 C796 CC0F BF8F <= fingerprint |
From: Alexander F. <xandi@3Dsia.cx> - 2001-04-03 11:25:06
|
On Tuesday 03 April 2001 10:50, you wrote: > Hi folks, > I just read an article ( > http://www.warnertechnology.com/Computers/Articles/copyright.shtml ) which > all of you should read. It made me think about our legal position and what > we can do to protect our work. > I think we should contact a lawyer and ask him what to do to protect our > work here in Europe. I don't want a bad awakening when our source is > getting useful and getting interesting for others, so I think we should > act now to pretect ourselves. > Xandi, I think this would be your issue since you are the founder of the > project. I might add that the European Patent Office is situated in > Munich, where I live, this could be good for us. > The only real problem I'm seeing right now is money. Contacting a lawyer > will cost money and filing a copyright will cost money, too, at least > AFAIK. So the next question is how do we get legally respected as a group > ? > Marc hm, honestly i don't quite care about other people taking our work for some reasons.. .) what we produce is not high-tech and we don't have to protect that. noone wants to steal that .) i don't know you gals'/guys' reasons to work on the project, but mine are not to become rich or respected, but to learn.. and because it's fun .) imho we decided to use GPL to provide full access to our code, so other people can learn, too, and have fun, too .) when commercial entities make use of our code and use it for their products (which is something i doubt will happen in near future) we should be happy, not angry. .) .. The only thing I am worried about is someone taking the name '3Dsia' using it for a commercial product or something else, and then suing me for using that name, although we had it in the first place... That would be a bummer, and in that case we should find another name, but fighting against such threats is useless imho. You will always lose as a non-profit entity. Non-profit is not in the 'public' interest, economy counts, money counts. We could try to protect the name '3Dsia', after forming a non-profit organization which is (afaik) not connected with any costs, other than registration fees, but that cost quite a lot of money. Afaik around 2000 Euro. But there is the question if that is useful at all, and if we really need that. I would say, at the moment, we don't need it. What do you think? we don't respect many people's copyright, so why should we expect anyone respecting ours? bye Xandi -- xandi@3Dsia.cx - Alexander Feder - Vienna/Austria personal: http://members.blackbox.net/xandi/ project: http://www.3Dsia.org |
From: KaLTaN <kal...@gm...> - 2001-04-03 14:04:54
|
I think the main point is just that if you want to GPL something, first take copyright of your code in a way you can proove you wrote it. If you don't claim your copyright legal, using the GPL is useless. All GNU code is for example first copyrighted by it's owner, then protected by the GPL. If we want that the 3dsia code stays under the GPL when someone uses/sells (yeah we allow that) it, we need to do the same as the GNU guys. -- KaLTaN Grabel's Law 2 is not equal to 3 - not even for very large values of 2. |
From: Manfred M. <ib....@gm...> - 2001-04-03 15:05:39
|
My finaly statement to this point: If any problem will appear with open source projects in general or the GPL or our way to do our stuff - I will stopp all my projects an learn to design wood houses. After this, I will open an office for "green architecture and plant integrated living". I do not have any problem throw away all of my past and all of my work, done in the past. I did this step in the near past (as someone are knowing), and I learned, that I can stand them without killing anyone - even if I wish to do so sometimes ;-) Currently I get my money in the range of software development and this is ok. There is no need - expect learning and fun - to develop any of my Open Source projects. --- the end of the statement --- Imaging: Oracel will find out, that the odb is at leat 1000 times faster than there newest database system, and imaging, they will find out, that it is able to become 10 to 100 times faster than today if it will be optimized like there own database core system. Did anyone believe, that anything changes in any way? Is anyone out there who is willing to believe on wonders? The odb is online since more than one year and lots of people, from Orcale, M$, Nasa, Fbi, Boing, Opel, Daimler/Crysler, ... did a look on it (you may check the site statistics). And nothings happend ever. So, learn and have fun and when it comes down to software patents in europe - find for yourself an other hobby ;-) Greetings, KM-tfo. -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net |
From: Lars W. <chr...@li...> - 2001-04-03 15:17:04
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On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:05:33 +0200 (MEST) Manfred Morgner <ib....@gm...> wrote: > So, learn and have fun and when it comes down to software patents in europe > - find for yourself an other hobby ;-) Thi means running away from the problem... CD -- "Ihre Meinung ist mir zwar widerlich, aber ich werde mich dafuer totschlagen lassen, dass sie sie sagen duerfen." Voltaire e-mail: chr...@li... Homepage: http://www.abyssos.de/ PGP-Key: http://chromedemon.liquidsteel.net PGP fingerprint: 4950 8576 778F DEDF 85D1 C04D 586F 2C45 E714 E13A |
From: Alexander F. <xandi@3Dsia.cx> - 2001-04-03 16:04:17
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what is copyright good for at all? imho we could release 3Dsia in public domain, wouldn't make any difference. sitting on copyright means imho that there is a hidden, capitalistic wish to exploit the work in some financial way. This wish wouldn't be fulfilled anyway. What do you wish to protect? And you have to decide wether you want to be anarchistic or legally protected. Both is not possible. If patents become an issue in europe, then it's better to have code in public domain anyway, then noone can get sued. And when i talked about that nobody respects most people's copyright, i meant things like music, videos etc. Don't you have an illegal copy of a piece of music on your hd? Or a copy of a movie in your bookshelf? You say you wouldn't have bought it if you wouldn't have got it as an illegal copy. So it's not a loss for the company? right. that's also my opinon. But then on the other hand, you can't say anyone must respect your copyright. When you write your software and 'protect' it with GPL, then you expect noone to take your work and make money with it or use it within a proprietary piece of software. But... imagine someone did, where would be the difference for you? would you have a loss? no. so why complain? It's just your surpressed capitalistic attitude that drives you to hate the one who uses your code. who cares, bye Xandi -- xandi@3Dsia.cx - Alexander Feder - Vienna/Austria personal: http://members.blackbox.net/xandi/ project: http://www.3Dsia.org |
From: Lars W. <chr...@li...> - 2001-04-03 16:10:01
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On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 17:01:35 +0200 Alexander Feder <xandi@3Dsia.cx> wrote: > When you > write your software and 'protect' it with GPL, then you expect noone to take > your work and make money with it or use it within a proprietary piece of > software. But... imagine someone did, where would be the difference for you? > would you have a loss? no. so why complain? It's just your surpressed > capitalistic attitude that drives you to hate the one who uses your code. I don't think so. _I_ don't have problems with someone selling 3Dsia etc. for Money. But i have the problem that they claim 3Dsia to be "theirs" und sue US. We have to protect us against the marketing and lawyers. CD -- "Ihre Meinung ist mir zwar widerlich, aber ich werde mich dafuer totschlagen lassen, dass sie sie sagen duerfen." Voltaire e-mail: chr...@li... Homepage: http://www.abyssos.de/ PGP-Key: http://chromedemon.liquidsteel.net PGP fingerprint: 4950 8576 778F DEDF 85D1 C04D 586F 2C45 E714 E13A |
From: Lars W. <chr...@li...> - 2001-04-03 14:26:22
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On Tue, 3 Apr 2001 11:50:35 +0300 M.H...@ja... wrote: > Hi folks, > I just read an article ( > http://www.warnertechnology.com/Computers/Articles/copyright.shtml ) which > all of you should read. Yaeh. Read it. But 1) There is no possibility to have patents on Software in Europe with little exceptions. This is a good thing(tm) 2) We are not in the USA where the Moneys gets the right. I think we should fight in an european court IF there will be such case. 3) IF 3Dsia is hijaked, we can easy "polute" the 3Dsia stnadard. Also we know the SourceCode very good. We may then just create 3Dsia2 on our experience 4) There is a LOT of good Software, that NOT got hijaked. (Linux, GIMP) 5) It IS allowed by the GPL to sell the Software by 3rd parties. 6) If somebody really want to piss on us, we can still lay violent hands on them. Sorry. but if it comes to copyright i am 100% anarchist: There is no property! CD -- "Ihre Meinung ist mir zwar widerlich, aber ich werde mich dafuer totschlagen lassen, dass sie sie sagen duerfen." Voltaire e-mail: chr...@li... Homepage: http://www.abyssos.de/ PGP-Key: http://chromedemon.liquidsteel.net PGP fingerprint: 4950 8576 778F DEDF 85D1 C04D 586F 2C45 E714 E13A |