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#302 bad shape for tied notes in different clefs
Accepted
nobody
None
Ugly
2015-09-16
2007-02-18
Anonymous
No
Originally created by: *anonymous
Originally created by: *anonymous
Originally created by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
\version "2.11.18" \header { texidoc = " A tie between notes in different clefs must be converted to having the shape of a slur. Below is a counterexample. " } \relative c' { c1 ~ \clef bass c ~ \clef treble c } \paper { ragged-right = ##t } % EOF
Originally posted by: hanw...@gmail.com
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Labels: -Type-Defect Type-Enhancement
Originally posted by: hanw...@gmail.com
From what I understand, in several pieces (I remember seeing debussy), it is common for the tied note to remain in the old clef.
What is your suggestion for handling chords in this configuration? Treating sloped ties in the case of chords is going to be very difficult.
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
Hmm, a tie into nothing is very common for Debussy (i.e., a l.v. tie), but if the music continues in a different clef, I can't see an alternative to convert it to a slur-like shape.
I wasn't aware that this could be a difficult problem. From my naive point of view, only the vertical offset of the tie's right side needs to be adjusted, and chords should be handled similarly. Your remark seems to imply that the tie positioning algorithm works only if there is no vertical offset, right?
Originally posted by: wbsoft
In music composed or edited by Marcel Dupré, I have seen that a tie between two notes with a clef change in between is rendered as two ties: a l.v. tie from the first note, and a 'repeattie' to the second.
This is currently possible. It might be an idea to automate this (e.g. in case of clef change automatically create the two ties, but I'm not sure).
Originally posted by: hanw...@gmail.com
i'm talking about snippets like
http://valentin.villenave.info/The-LilyPond-Report-3
there is a more famous one that is widely quoted in computer music notation literature (might it be au-clair-de-lune ?) where one voice with tied notes continues in a bass clef, while the other notes in the same staff are in treble clef.
The tie formatting code was written witht the assumption that ties are horizontal. I haven't looked into what it would take to make it accept slanted ties, but I suspect it would be a lot of work.
Your suggestion to use 2 half-ties sounds a lot easier to do.
Originally posted by: hanw...@gmail.com
you might want to add your 2 half-ties example as a snippet to LSR btw. We don’t have automation, but you can do it manually with
\repeatTieand\laissezVibrerOriginally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
The Debussy piece you are quoting is a very special case and is not what I have in mind at all. However, the solution with 2 half-ties is something I can live with—and for chords it might be even a better solution, avoiding a lot of ugly ties.
BTW, allowing non-horizontal ties solves issue 461 too...
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Issues:
#461Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
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Labels: -Priority-Medium Priority-Low
Originally posted by: pkx1...@gmail.com
This is still the same in 2.15.11
Labels: -Type-Enhancement Type-Ugly
Owner: ---
Originally posted by: dak@gnu.org
I'm probably weird in that I consider this picture not at all egregious. It's pretty much how I would do this.
The only conceivable improvement I could think of are two half-ties joined by a dotted line or curved middle slur segment or something. But that would pretty certainly go right through the changed clef (since the clef change would hardly be called for at this point of time if the respective tessiture of the clefs would not be at opposite ends of the staff).
Any word from the authorities?
Labels: -Priority-Low
Originally posted by: tdanielsmusic
Elaine Gould on page 9, says, "Avoid changing a clef during a tied note, as the tie will look cumbersome. If this cannot be avoided, the clef is best changed at a system break." She illustrates this with with half-ties at a system break, marked "acceptable", and a curved slur-like shape weaving round the clef in the middle of a system marked "incorrect".
Trevor
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
Here two examples from Ravel's `Gaspard de la Nuit'. I'll have to dig more to find an example that exactly fits the original bug report.
Originally posted by: dak@gnu.org
Well, the Gaspard is rather about staff changes than clef changes unless I am mistaken.
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
Here an example that fits (Parsifal vocal score, Mottl, p. 77)– the middle voice of the chord is not a legato slur.
Originally posted by: dak@gnu.org
How do you figure that the middle voice is not a slur when all the surrounding notes are? It's not like it is visually distinguished in any manner, is it?
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
Here a line break with clef change (Tristan vocal score, Mottl, p. 23).
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
Regarding #15: I *know* it. The transcribed instruments are trombones; they can do a crescendo without the need to play a note again, contrary to a piano. In complicated vocal scores like the Wagner ones you can find a lot of such things.
Originally posted by: dak@gnu.org
When this is a piano extract, one would likely play the "tied" note twice since a piano can't actually do a full trombone "legato" in the other voices either. It has to give the other notes an individual attack, so not repeating the other note might be out of character.
If this is a partitura, of course, it has to reflect the actual action of the original instrument.
Originally posted by: lemzw...@googlemail.com
A vocal score is special: It normally reflects what the orchestra is doing, with some modifications to make it playable. You might be right that this note should be played twice. However, it still is a tie and not a legato, and should be notated as such because it has to represent the full score. It's the job of the répétiteur to find a solution.