#343 Allow <idno> inside <monogr> without restrictions

Javier Pose

Currently, the <idno> is only permitted inside <monogr> when it is located following <title> (see http://tei.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/tei?view=revision&revision=4782\).
We would like to encode bibliographical information which does not have a <title>, but we need to use <idno> inside <monogr>.

REQUEST: permit <idno> inside <monogr> WITHOUT restrictions, i.e. without the restriction of having the <idno> ONLY after the <title>.


  • Laurent Romary

    Laurent Romary - 2012-01-26

    This request is the opportunity to point to the complexity of the content model of monogr. Could we simplify it somehow, maybe making it a little more flexible from the point of view of occurance restrictions. We should definitely have a more class based behavior here...

  • Lou Burnard

    Lou Burnard - 2012-03-15

    I don't understand how you can have a bibliographic item with no title. Please supply more details of the specific use case.

  • Lou Burnard

    Lou Burnard - 2012-03-15
    • milestone: --> RED
  • Martin Holmes

    Martin Holmes - 2012-03-15

    They may for instance have an unpublished exercise book containing jottings, never intended to be a coherent work, so lacking a title, but which has been catalogued in a library and therefore has an idno.

    I think this report is pointing at two separate issues: the requirement that a title be present, and the arbitrary restriction that idno may only appear after it. Both of these seem valid concerns to me.

  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-03-20

    Agreed, both seem reasonable concerns, and a coherent request. Concrete examples from the reporter would be useful to focus this discussion, however.

  • Laurent Romary

    Laurent Romary - 2012-03-20

    The political comment of the day. This is an important use case for the EPO (European Patent Office). Since we missed the ISO opportunity, we may not want to leave out patents from our scope...

  • BODARD Gabriel

    BODARD Gabriel - 2012-03-20

    What is the issue--do patent docs not have titles? Can someone supply an example of what such a (fully marked-up) bibliographic item would look like?

  • Kevin Hawkins

    Kevin Hawkins - 2012-03-24

    Let me state Martin's two issues a bit more precisely:

    a) the requirement that a <title> be present in a <monogr>

    b) the arbitrary restriction that <idno> may only appear after <title> within <monogr>

    Regarding (a), I believe all library cataloging codes require that a title be supplied for an item (in square brackets) when one does not exist on the primary source of information of the item being cataloged. But there may be historical catalogs or special-use catalogs where items lack titles, so I am willing to allow the use of case of someone wanting to use <biblStruct> for citations to items without titles.

    Regarding (b), I do not believe we should be flexible on this point. <biblStruct> is structured in the order that elements are allowed, so if you have an <idno>, it has to go at a particular point in the XML tree. If you want to arrange the components of a citation in a different order, you need to use <bibl>. The good news, though, is that if we change the content model of <monogr> so that <title> is no longer mandatory, I think this solves Javier's problem anyway.

  • Javier Pose

    Javier Pose - 2012-03-30

    I will provide more details about the patent citations (without title).
    I also opened another Request because the needs for patent citation are broader than only the issues about <title> and <idno> inside <monogr>:

    The current TEI standard does not allow us to encode the patent bibliographical citations. In the patents, the patent documents are cited according to a very well defined encoding for which the main elements are:

    - Identification of a Patent Authority
    - Identification of a Patent Number
    - Identification of a Date
    - Identification of a Kind Code

    Therefore, we would need to have the following structure in TEI for encoding the bibliographic information of patents:

    <biblStruct type="patent¦utilityModel¦designPatent¦plant" status="application¦publication">
    <orgName type="national¦regional"><orgName>
    <idno type="docNumber"></idno>
    <date type=""applicationDate¦publicationDate"></date>
    <idno type="kindCode"></idno>

    I would like to add some examples, to show the importance of having this structure for our project (see the file that I attached):

    1) Normally in the patent documents, the citation of other patents is one of the most important information.
    This citation could identify the priority patents, related patents or simply are patents cited in the document.
    The bibliographical reference to these patents is done without indicating any title, but using the patent standard bibliographical codification.
    See the following examples

    E1) In this text (from a patent) another patent is cited by: "Japanese Patent Laid-Open No. 223883/1974
    E2) in this example you can see how normally the bibliographical information of the patents is provided:
    E3) also non-patent literature uses very often this kind of citation, see the following example:

    2) I would like also to indicate that there are different citation manual styles which explicitly avoid to use the title and other information to cite the patents:

    Bluebook Citation:
    U.S. Patent No. 6,885,550 (issued Apr. 26, 2005).

    APA Citation:
    Williams, D. (2005). U.S. Patent No. 6,885,550. Washington, DC: U.S.

    ACS Citation:
    Williams, D. U.S. Patent 6,885,550, 2005.

  • Kevin Hawkins

    Kevin Hawkins - 2012-04-08

    Javier opened a feature request at http://purl.org/TEI/fr/3513147 with the same text as his most recent comment here. We should continue discussion of that feature request there.

    Javier, is there anything left in this ticket that you would like to have addressed, or can we just close it and refer to http://purl.org/TEI/fr/3513147 ?

  • Javier Pose

    Javier Pose - 2012-04-14

    sorry for the delay to reply.
    You are right. You can just close this request and refer to
    I didnt get any reply in that request.
    Is there any opinion about it?

  • Kevin Hawkins

    Kevin Hawkins - 2012-04-17

    I am closing this ticket. Council will address the other ticket. It sometimes takes a little while for us to get to all of them, and we try to deal with the oldest ones first.

  • Kevin Hawkins

    Kevin Hawkins - 2012-04-17
    • status: open --> closed