tcljava-dev

[tcljava-dev] Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future

[Charles O. N. <cha...@su...>]

(Hi there Tcl enthusiasts and Jacl devs! This is kind of a form letter, 
but I'm serious about getting this event together with devs from 
multiple languages. I'd love to hear your thoughts on such an event and 
see if you'd be interested in attending.)

Hello all!

I am attempting to organize an outside event for JavaOne this year 
entitled "Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future". It is my intent to 
have as many alternative (dynamic) language implementers together in the 
same place as well as Java and JVM developers and specifiers. This would 
be our opportunity to talk about areas that have caused us trouble, 
features we'd like to see in Java or the JVM (or features we'd like to 
remove) and other related topics. I really want to break down the 
boundaries between the language implementations/implementers so we can 
cooperatively work toward making the JVM a more dynlang-friendly platform.

Ideally we'd have as many of your core team as possible (or others, as 
you see fit) in attendance. I'll be there, as will at least Tom Enebo 
and Ola Bini of the JRuby team. I'm also reaching out to other language 
teams in hopes of having a really good cross-language discussion.

The event would likely be hosted at a nearby hotel, bar, or restaurant. 
I'd like it to be pretty informal, but somewhere we can actually talk.

It would help my cause to get this event organized (and funded) if I 
could get a vote of confidence from likely attendees. Many high-level 
folks at Sun have already voiced their approval, and I think this is an 
excellent opportunity for us to show that real cooperation between the 
dynlang impls is possible and that it would be productive.

Please feel free to reply on this list (assuming the owners don't mind) 
or in private if you have questions or to voice your opinion. This is 
going to be a big year for dynlangs on the JVM, and we need to make sure 
things keep moving in the right direction.

-- 
Charles Oliver Nutter
JRuby Core Developer
Senior Staff Engineer
Sun Microsystems, Inc
_______________________________________________
dev-tech-js-engine mailing list
dev...@li...
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-js-engine

Re: [tcljava-dev] Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future

[Bruce J. <nm...@ma...>]

I've had some inquiries about access to Swank (Tk in Java) from other  
languages like JRuby.  It might be interesting to think about what  
core features would make this simpler.  I hadn't planned on attending  
Java One, but this sounds like an interesting event, so I may think  
about it.

Bruce



On Feb 16, 2007, at 9:11 PM, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:

> (Hi there Tcl enthusiasts and Jacl devs! This is kind of a form  
> letter,
> but I'm serious about getting this event together with devs from
> multiple languages. I'd love to hear your thoughts on such an event  
> and
> see if you'd be interested in attending.)
>
> Hello all!
>
> I am attempting to organize an outside event for JavaOne this year
> entitled "Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future". It is my  
> intent to
> have as many alternative (dynamic) language implementers together  
> in the
> same place as well as Java and JVM developers and specifiers. This  
> would
> be our opportunity to talk about areas that have caused us trouble,
> features we'd like to see in Java or the JVM (or features we'd like to
> remove) and other related topics. I really want to break down the
> boundaries between the language implementations/implementers so we can
> cooperatively work toward making the JVM a more dynlang-friendly  
> platform.
>
> Ideally we'd have as many of your core team as possible (or others, as
> you see fit) in attendance. I'll be there, as will at least Tom Enebo
> and Ola Bini of the JRuby team. I'm also reaching out to other  
> language
> teams in hopes of having a really good cross-language discussion.
>
> The event would likely be hosted at a nearby hotel, bar, or  
> restaurant.
> I'd like it to be pretty informal, but somewhere we can actually talk.
>
> It would help my cause to get this event organized (and funded) if I
> could get a vote of confidence from likely attendees. Many high-level
> folks at Sun have already voiced their approval, and I think this  
> is an
> excellent opportunity for us to show that real cooperation between the
> dynlang impls is possible and that it would be productive.
>
> Please feel free to reply on this list (assuming the owners don't  
> mind)
> or in private if you have questions or to voice your opinion. This is
> going to be a big year for dynlangs on the JVM, and we need to make  
> sure
> things keep moving in the right direction.
>
> -- 
> Charles Oliver Nutter
> JRuby Core Developer
> Senior Staff Engineer
> Sun Microsystems, Inc
> _______________________________________________
> dev-tech-js-engine mailing list
> dev...@li...
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-js-engine
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
> share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> tcljava-dev mailing list
> tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcljava-dev

Re: [tcljava-dev] Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future

[Charles O. N. <cha...@su...>]

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> I've had some inquiries about access to Swank (Tk in Java) from other  
> languages like JRuby.  It might be interesting to think about what  
> core features would make this simpler.  I hadn't planned on attending  
> Java One, but this sounds like an interesting event, so I may think  
> about it.

I'm pushing for JavaOne attendance to not be a prerequisite also. 
Obviously it would be great for you to attend what will truly be "the 
scripting JavaOne" and see all the talks, but I don't want the cost of 
the conference to prevent folks like you from joining the conversation.

Do keep me posted on your plans.

- Charlie

Re: [tcljava-dev] Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future

[Bruce J. <nm...@ma...>]

Of course, these things always contribute a little to the traditional  
"we have the best-kept secret", or perhaps, "we have the largest  
inferiority complex" that plagues the Tcl world.  One would like to  
think that Tcl/Jacl wouldn't be relegated to the "etc." category in  
lists such as this (from the Java One flyer).

Scripting languages (e.g. Groovy, Jython, Ruby, Perl, PHP, Python,  
Rhino, etc.)

Apparently we do need what the Java One conference calls a "Rock  
Star".  On the other hand perhaps the steady, but unnoticed,  usage  
of Tcl is better than a rise to stardom followed by decline to  
obscurity.



On Feb 16, 2007, at 9:11 PM, Charles Oliver Nutter wrote:

> (Hi there Tcl enthusiasts and Jacl devs! This is kind of a form  
> letter,
> but I'm serious about getting this event together with devs from
> multiple languages. I'd love to hear your thoughts on such an event  
> and
> see if you'd be interested in attending.)
>
> Hello all!
>
> I am attempting to organize an outside event for JavaOne this year
> entitled "Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future". It is my  
> intent to
> have as many alternative (dynamic) language implementers together  
> in the
> same place as well as Java and JVM developers and specifiers. This  
> would
> be our opportunity to talk about areas that have caused us trouble,
> features we'd like to see in Java or the JVM (or features we'd like to
> remove) and other related topics. I really want to break down the
> boundaries between the language implementations/implementers so we can
> cooperatively work toward making the JVM a more dynlang-friendly  
> platform.
>
> Ideally we'd have as many of your core team as possible (or others, as
> you see fit) in attendance. I'll be there, as will at least Tom Enebo
> and Ola Bini of the JRuby team. I'm also reaching out to other  
> language
> teams in hopes of having a really good cross-language discussion.
>
> The event would likely be hosted at a nearby hotel, bar, or  
> restaurant.
> I'd like it to be pretty informal, but somewhere we can actually talk.
>
> It would help my cause to get this event organized (and funded) if I
> could get a vote of confidence from likely attendees. Many high-level
> folks at Sun have already voiced their approval, and I think this  
> is an
> excellent opportunity for us to show that real cooperation between the
> dynlang impls is possible and that it would be productive.
>
> Please feel free to reply on this list (assuming the owners don't  
> mind)
> or in private if you have questions or to voice your opinion. This is
> going to be a big year for dynlangs on the JVM, and we need to make  
> sure
> things keep moving in the right direction.
>
> -- 
> Charles Oliver Nutter
> JRuby Core Developer
> Senior Staff Engineer
> Sun Microsystems, Inc
> _______________________________________________
> dev-tech-js-engine mailing list
> dev...@li...
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-tech-js-engine
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> ---
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to  
> share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php? 
> page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> tcljava-dev mailing list
> tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcljava-dev

Re: [tcljava-dev] Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future

[Charles O. N. <cha...@su...>]

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> I've had some inquiries about access to Swank (Tk in Java) from other  
> languages like JRuby.  It might be interesting to think about what  
> core features would make this simpler.  I hadn't planned on attending  
> Java One, but this sounds like an interesting event, so I may think  
> about it.

Actually someone just asked about Tk support in JRuby today, and I'd 
never heard of Swank. I bet it would be fairly easy to write Ruby 
bindings in JRuby for Swank...

- Charlie

Re: [tcljava-dev] Dynamic Languages on the JVM: The Future

[Charles O. N. <cha...@su...>]

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Of course, these things always contribute a little to the traditional 
> "we have the best-kept secret", or perhaps, "we have the largest 
> inferiority complex" that plagues the Tcl world.  One would like to 
> think that Tcl/Jacl wouldn't be relegated to the "etc." category in 
> lists such as this (from the Java One flyer).  
> 
> Scripting languages (e.g. Groovy, Jython, Ruby, Perl, PHP, Python, 
> Rhino, etc.)
> 
> Apparently we do need what the Java One conference calls a "Rock 
> Star".  On the other hand perhaps the steady, but unnoticed,  usage of 
> Tcl is better than a rise to stardom followed by decline to obscurity.

Yes, this whole dynamic language world is pretty fickle. Either you're 
the darling or the stepchild, and there's no guarantees where you'll 
stand from year to year.

I suppose you're right about the "rock star" thing. Perhaps what most 
people are missing in Tcl nowadays is a big-name app that fits into one 
of the latest popular development models... a Rails or Django or 
something that shows people they can get things done in Tcl they can't 
do as easily in other languages. Not knowing the Tcl world much myself, 
I can't say what that an app would be.

- Charlie