tcl-mac

[MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Ned D. <na...@ac...>]

Has anyone had any experience using Aqua Tk (either Carbon or Cocoa) 
with the Mac OS X Dvorak - Qwerty Cmd input method.  (See System 
Preferences -> Language & Text -> Input Sources).  The idea behind it is 
to have a Dvorak keyboard layout except when the Command key is pressed 
(as when using keyboard accelerators): then the keyboard reverts to a 
standard Qwerty layout.  I had never run into it before until someone 
submitted this Python issue:

    http://bugs.python.org/issue12748

As I noted in the issue, I'm really not keen on tracking this down 
further myself at the moment but I thought I'd bring it up here in (1) 
to see if anyone else had any experience using this input method with Tk 
apps (in particular, with text processing and keyboard menu 
accelerators) and (2) to bring it to the attention of anyone who might 
want to look into it sometime.

Thanks.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 na...@ac...

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Jeff H. <je...@ac...>]

On 2011-08-15, at 5:49 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
> Has anyone had any experience using Aqua Tk (either Carbon or Cocoa) 
> with the Mac OS X Dvorak - Qwerty Cmd input method.  (See System 
> Preferences -> Language & Text -> Input Sources).  The idea behind it is 
> to have a Dvorak keyboard layout except when the Command key is pressed 
> (as when using keyboard accelerators): then the keyboard reverts to a 
> standard Qwerty layout.  I had never run into it before until someone 
> submitted this Python issue:
> 
>    http://bugs.python.org/issue12748
> 
> As I noted in the issue, I'm really not keen on tracking this down 
> further myself at the moment but I thought I'd bring it up here in (1) 
> to see if anyone else had any experience using this input method with Tk 
> apps (in particular, with text processing and keyboard menu 
> accelerators) and (2) to bring it to the attention of anyone who might 
> want to look into it sometime.

Just an FYI that I tried this out and could confirm it with older builds, but not the latest 8.5.10 Cocoa (ActiveTcl 8.5.10.1 in particular), which includes fixes from Kevin Walzer on command-key handling.

I tested this by using the (wacky) Dvorak-Qwerty Cmd layout in tkcon, and finding that Cmd-N (new window) and Cmd-T (new Tab) still worked while regular input was Dvorak layout.

Jeff

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Ned D. <na...@ac...>]

In article <658...@ac...>,
 Jeff Hobbs <je...@ac...> wrote:
> On 2011-08-15, at 5:49 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
> > Has anyone had any experience using Aqua Tk (either Carbon or Cocoa) 
> > with the Mac OS X Dvorak - Qwerty Cmd input method.  (See System 
> > Preferences -> Language & Text -> Input Sources).  The idea behind it is 
> > to have a Dvorak keyboard layout except when the Command key is pressed 
> > (as when using keyboard accelerators): then the keyboard reverts to a 
> > standard Qwerty layout.  I had never run into it before until someone 
> > submitted this Python issue:
> > 
> >    http://bugs.python.org/issue12748
> > 
> > As I noted in the issue, I'm really not keen on tracking this down 
> > further myself at the moment but I thought I'd bring it up here in (1) 
> > to see if anyone else had any experience using this input method with Tk 
> > apps (in particular, with text processing and keyboard menu 
> > accelerators) and (2) to bring it to the attention of anyone who might 
> > want to look into it sometime.
> 
> Just an FYI that I tried this out and could confirm it with older builds, but 
> not the latest 8.5.10 Cocoa (ActiveTcl 8.5.10.1 in particular), which 
> includes fixes from Kevin Walzer on command-key handling.
> 
> I tested this by using the (wacky) Dvorak-Qwerty Cmd layout in tkcon, and 
> finding that Cmd-N (new window) and Cmd-T (new Tab) still worked while 
> regular input was Dvorak layout.

Thanks, Jeff, for testing this.  Wacky it is. That reminded me about the 
Wish Widget demo.  Using the Menus and Cascades demo with the latest 
ActiveTcl 8.4 Wish, it did appear that the 
shift-to-Qwerty-when-Cmd-pressed did not happen with 8.4 as you noted.  
With ActiveTcl 8.5.10.1, the switch from Dvorak to Qwerty with Cmd *was* 
followed,  however the Dvorak layout letters were also recognized as 
accelerators.  So, for instance, in the 8.5.10.1 Menus and Cascades demo 
(using a US keyboard with the Dvorak-Qwerty Cmd input method) pressing 
either Cmd-B or Cmd-N (Dvorak "N" == Qwerty "B") caused a "B" to be 
output.  With the 8.4 demo, only Cmd-N produces a "B".  Presumably, the 
right answer is for only Cmd-B to be recognized, not both, so it seems 
neither 8.4.19 nor 8.5.10.1 are doing exactly the right thing.

One other, much more serious problem with the 8.5.10.1 Wish (and seen 
with Python IDLE as well):  Qwerty "X" == Dvorak "Q" and pressing Cmd-X 
for the common Edit menu Cut command appears to be interpreted 
unconditionally as Cmd-Q and causes the app to quit!  That's kinda nasty.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 na...@ac...

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Ned D. <na...@ac...>]

In article <nad...@ne...>,
 Ned Deily <na...@ac...> wrote:

> One other, much more serious problem with the 8.5.10.1 Wish (and seen 
> with Python IDLE as well):  Qwerty "X" == Dvorak "Q" and pressing Cmd-X 
> for the common Edit menu Cut command appears to be interpreted 
> unconditionally as Cmd-Q and causes the app to quit!  That's kinda nasty.

I've opened a Tk tracker issue for this:

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3393315&group_id=12997&a
tid=112997

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 na...@ac...

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

On 8/17/11 5:01 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
> In article<nad...@ne...>,
>   Ned Deily<na...@ac...>  wrote:
>
>> One other, much more serious problem with the 8.5.10.1 Wish (and seen
>> with Python IDLE as well):  Qwerty "X" == Dvorak "Q" and pressing Cmd-X
>> for the common Edit menu Cut command appears to be interpreted
>> unconditionally as Cmd-Q and causes the app to quit!  That's kinda nasty.
>
> I've opened a Tk tracker issue for this:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3393315&group_id=12997&a
> tid=112997
>

This indeed did seem very odd, but it appears that the Dvorak-Qwerty 
keyboard layout works that way by design:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/808422/mac-style-dvorak-qwerty-command-keyboard-mapping-for-windows

In other words, the layout reverts to Qwerty when the command-key is 
pressed. It's a hybrid layout. Why it's set up that way I have no idea, 
but the issue can probably be avoided with a pure Dvorak layout.

So, I don't think there's anything to do here...

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Ned D. <na...@ac...>]

In article <4E4...@co...>,
 Kevin Walzer <kw...@co...> wrote:
> On 8/17/11 5:01 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
> > In 
> > article<nad...@ne...>,
> >   Ned Deily<na...@ac...>  wrote:
> >
> >> One other, much more serious problem with the 8.5.10.1 Wish (and seen
> >> with Python IDLE as well):  Qwerty "X" == Dvorak "Q" and pressing Cmd-X
> >> for the common Edit menu Cut command appears to be interpreted
> >> unconditionally as Cmd-Q and causes the app to quit!  That's kinda nasty.
> >
> > I've opened a Tk tracker issue for this:
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3393315&group_id=12997&a
> > tid=112997
> >
> 
> This indeed did seem very odd, but it appears that the Dvorak-Qwerty 
> keyboard layout works that way by design:
> 
> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/808422/mac-style-dvorak-qwerty-command-keyb
> oard-mapping-for-windows
> 
> In other words, the layout reverts to Qwerty when the command-key is 
> pressed. It's a hybrid layout. Why it's set up that way I have no idea, 
> but the issue can probably be avoided with a pure Dvorak layout.
> 
> So, I don't think there's anything to do here...

I think you misunderstand the problem.  Yes, it is a hybrid layout and 
elsewhere the layout is working as designed.  (I assume the rationale is 
for people who are used to touchtyping Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard.)   
The problem here is that Cocoa Tk is not handling the revert to Qwerty 
properly when the command-key is pressed.  It appears that the keyboard 
accelerators that appear in the menus *are* properly interpreted in 
Qwerty when cmd is pressed (probably Cocoa is doing this?) but, *in 
addition*, something (the Tk code?) is still trying to use the Dvorak 
layout as menu accelerators at the same time.  This leads to various 
confusions, depending what menu accelerators are defined.  The nasty one 
I noted was the accelerator cmd-X appears to also get interpreted as 
cmd-Q (since Dvorak Q is the Qwerty X key).  That leads me to think this 
might be a symptom of a bigger problem.  Why are keyboard accelerators 
apparently being processed in two different places?  Perhaps there is 
something in Tk that needs to be disable for Cocoa?  Just wild 
speculation on my part as I have no familiarity with the code.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 na...@ac...

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

On 8/18/11 1:06 AM, Ned Deily wrote:
> In article<4E4...@co...>,
>   Kevin Walzer<kw...@co...>  wrote:
>> On 8/17/11 5:01 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
>>> In
>>> article<nad...@ne...>,
>>>    Ned Deily<na...@ac...>   wrote:
>>>
>>>> One other, much more serious problem with the 8.5.10.1 Wish (and seen
>>>> with Python IDLE as well):  Qwerty "X" == Dvorak "Q" and pressing Cmd-X
>>>> for the common Edit menu Cut command appears to be interpreted
>>>> unconditionally as Cmd-Q and causes the app to quit!  That's kinda nasty.
>>>
>>> I've opened a Tk tracker issue for this:
>>>
>>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3393315&group_id=12997&a
>>> tid=112997
>>>
>>
>> This indeed did seem very odd, but it appears that the Dvorak-Qwerty
>> keyboard layout works that way by design:
>>
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/808422/mac-style-dvorak-qwerty-command-keyb
>> oard-mapping-for-windows
>>
>> In other words, the layout reverts to Qwerty when the command-key is
>> pressed. It's a hybrid layout. Why it's set up that way I have no idea,
>> but the issue can probably be avoided with a pure Dvorak layout.
>>
>> So, I don't think there's anything to do here...
>
> I think you misunderstand the problem.  Yes, it is a hybrid layout and
> elsewhere the layout is working as designed.  (I assume the rationale is
> for people who are used to touchtyping Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard.)
> The problem here is that Cocoa Tk is not handling the revert to Qwerty
> properly when the command-key is pressed.  It appears that the keyboard
> accelerators that appear in the menus *are* properly interpreted in
> Qwerty when cmd is pressed (probably Cocoa is doing this?) but, *in
> addition*, something (the Tk code?) is still trying to use the Dvorak
> layout as menu accelerators at the same time.  This leads to various
> confusions, depending what menu accelerators are defined.  The nasty one
> I noted was the accelerator cmd-X appears to also get interpreted as
> cmd-Q (since Dvorak Q is the Qwerty X key).  That leads me to think this
> might be a symptom of a bigger problem.  Why are keyboard accelerators
> apparently being processed in two different places?  Perhaps there is
> something in Tk that needs to be disable for Cocoa?  Just wild
> speculation on my part as I have no familiarity with the code.
>

OK, I'll take another look. Adrian Robert has been working on an input 
manager patch to address some other issues and he said he is including 
this in his patch.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com

Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Adrian R. <adr...@gm...>]

Hi,

I updated my input manager patch at:

https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=3205153&group_id=12997&atid=112997

to handle this case.  I don't really know my way around the issue well enough to test it thoroughly though, so help on that would be appreciated.

thanks,
Adrian



On 2011/08/18, at 1:06, Ned Deily wrote:

> In article <4E4...@co...>,
> Kevin Walzer <kw...@co...> wrote:
>> On 8/17/11 5:01 PM, Ned Deily wrote:
>>> In 
>>> article<nad...@ne...>,
>>>  Ned Deily<na...@ac...>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> One other, much more serious problem with the 8.5.10.1 Wish (and seen
>>>> with Python IDLE as well):  Qwerty "X" == Dvorak "Q" and pressing Cmd-X
>>>> for the common Edit menu Cut command appears to be interpreted
>>>> unconditionally as Cmd-Q and causes the app to quit!  That's kinda nasty.
>>> 
>>> I've opened a Tk tracker issue for this:
>>> 
>>> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=3393315&group_id=12997&a
>>> tid=112997
>>> 
>> 
>> This indeed did seem very odd, but it appears that the Dvorak-Qwerty 
>> keyboard layout works that way by design:
>> 
>> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/808422/mac-style-dvorak-qwerty-command-keyb
>> oard-mapping-for-windows
>> 
>> In other words, the layout reverts to Qwerty when the command-key is 
>> pressed. It's a hybrid layout. Why it's set up that way I have no idea, 
>> but the issue can probably be avoided with a pure Dvorak layout.
>> 
>> So, I don't think there's anything to do here...
> 
> I think you misunderstand the problem.  Yes, it is a hybrid layout and 
> elsewhere the layout is working as designed.  (I assume the rationale is 
> for people who are used to touchtyping Dvorak on a Qwerty keyboard.)   
> The problem here is that Cocoa Tk is not handling the revert to Qwerty 
> properly when the command-key is pressed.  It appears that the keyboard 
> accelerators that appear in the menus *are* properly interpreted in 
> Qwerty when cmd is pressed (probably Cocoa is doing this?) but, *in 
> addition*, something (the Tk code?) is still trying to use the Dvorak 
> layout as menu accelerators at the same time.  This leads to various 
> confusions, depending what menu accelerators are defined.  The nasty one 
> I noted was the accelerator cmd-X appears to also get interpreted as 
> cmd-Q (since Dvorak Q is the Qwerty X key).  That leads me to think this 
> might be a symptom of a bigger problem.  Why are keyboard accelerators 
> apparently being processed in two different places?  Perhaps there is 
> something in Tk that needs to be disable for Cocoa?  Just wild 
> speculation on my part as I have no familiarity with the code.
> 
> -- 
> Ned Deily,
> na...@ac...
> 
> 
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Re: [MACTCL] Dvorak - Qwerty input method?

[Kevin W. <kw...@co...>]

On 8/18/11 7:46 AM, Adrian Robert wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I updated my input manager patch at:
>
> https://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=3205153&group_id=12997&atid=112997
>
> to handle this case.  I don't really know my way around the issue well enough to test it thoroughly though, so help on that would be appreciated.
>
> thanks,
> Adrian
>
>
Adrian,

Thanks for this--I'll review it as soon as possible. I appreciate your 
work on the patch.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com