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From: Pat T. <pat...@us...> - 2009-12-23 14:13:05
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Another request for comments on Tk menus changes... I would like to stop the ancient practice of sticking the .help menu to the far right of the screen on X11 as this is now an out-moded practice. No other toolkit appears to be doing this anymore. Preventing this is trivial but it has been indicated that people might want to keep this as a feature. It would be possible to add a -anchor option to menu items for this (-anchor e) as this is not currently used. In some ways this would have been preferable all along avoiding the 'magic name' effect on .help. However I would like to see how annoyed people might get about this. -- Pat Thoyts http://www.patthoyts.tk/ PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97 10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD |
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From: Jeff H. <je...@ac...> - 2009-12-23 16:17:48
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On 2009-12-23, at 3:12 PM, Pat Thoyts wrote: > Another request for comments on Tk menus changes... > > I would like to stop the ancient practice of sticking the .help menu to > the far right of the screen on X11 as this is now an out-moded > practice. No other toolkit appears to be doing this anymore. Preventing > this is trivial but it has been indicated that people might want to keep > this as a feature. It would be possible to add a -anchor option to menu > items for this (-anchor e) as this is not currently used. In some ways > this would have been preferable all along avoiding the 'magic name' > effect on .help. However I would like to see how annoyed people might > get about this. I would tie these items together. I might recommend making use of something in the 'tk::classic' namespace where I placed some option theme changes for 8.5. Jeff |
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From: Donal K. F. <don...@ma...> - 2009-12-23 17:48:22
Attachments:
donal_k_fellows.vcf
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On 23/12/2009 14:12, Pat Thoyts wrote: > Another request for comments on Tk menus changes... > > I would like to stop the ancient practice of sticking the .help menu to > the far right of the screen on X11 as this is now an out-moded > practice. It should still be the right-most menubar item, but need not be otherwise special. I think every app I've used for a long time puts it as the last item. Mind you, that's probably where the programmer puts it anyway since that's needed for getting the menu right on non-X11... Donal. |
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From: Joe E. <jen...@fl...> - 2009-12-23 18:57:44
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Pat Thoyts wrote: > > Another request for comments on Tk menus changes... > > I would like to stop the ancient practice of sticking the .help menu to > the far right of the screen on X11 as this is now an out-moded > practice. No other toolkit appears to be doing this anymore. Preventing > this is trivial but it has been indicated that people might want to keep > this as a feature. It would be possible to add a -anchor option to menu > items for this (-anchor e) as this is not currently used. In some ways > this would have been preferable all along avoiding the 'magic name' > effect on .help. However I would like to see how annoyed people might > get about this. I for one would not be annoyed at all. Don't want an option to put it back on the right either. ... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor. (Using a different menu -cursor actually has a small usability benefit -- it gives additional visual feedback that a menu is active -- but no other toolkits do this any more and it sometimes frightens and confuses people.) --Joe English jen...@fl... |
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From: Pat T. <pat...@us...> - 2009-12-23 23:06:29
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Joe English <jen...@fl...> writes: >I for one would not be annoyed at all. Don't want an option to >put it back on the right either. > >... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing >the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor. I don't get such an arrow with 8.5 or 8.4 on Ubuntu. I dont see any Xrdb options controlling this so maybe you have overidden this yourself? The tkUnixDefault.h file has #define DEF_MENU_CURSOR "arrow" but this seems to have been this way forever. -- Pat Thoyts http://www.patthoyts.tk/ PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97 10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD |
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From: Christophe C. <chr...@fr...> - 2009-12-24 09:12:16
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Hello, On Thursday 24 December 2009 00:06, Pat Thoyts wrote: > Joe English <jen...@fl...> writes: > >... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing > >the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor. > > I don't get such an arrow with 8.5 or 8.4 on Ubuntu. I dont see any Xrdb > options controlling this so maybe you have overidden this yourself? The > tkUnixDefault.h file has > #define DEF_MENU_CURSOR "arrow" > but this seems to have been this way forever. I just checked my Xlib manual, "arrow" is actually the right-pointing cursor, for the usual looking cursor it should be "left_ptr". I quickly checked on my side and confirm that the left-pointing cursor is used in menubar; Maybe this came from changes in the Tk handling so that "menu" supports the "-cursor" option like any other widget? Christophe. |
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From: Donal K. F. <don...@ma...> - 2009-12-24 14:12:17
Attachments:
donal_k_fellows.vcf
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On 24/12/2009 09:12, Christophe CURIS wrote: > I just checked my Xlib manual, "arrow" is actually the right-pointing cursor, > for the usual looking cursor it should be "left_ptr". > > I quickly checked on my side and confirm that the left-pointing cursor is used > in menubar; Maybe this came from changes in the Tk handling so that "menu" > supports the "-cursor" option like any other widget? It's probably set so that there's a pointer for the menu even when the user sets a different one for the toplevel. (This was an issue for the old style menubar as buttons-in-a-frame.) Changing the default is perfectly OK for me; it's entirely possible that it's been wrong all this time because of someone's mistake years ago. :-) Donal. |
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From: Kevin K. <kev...@gm...> - 2009-12-23 19:07:58
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The '80s called. They want their menus back. I don't need Motif any more. Not even as an option. (I never liked it all that well the first time around. "Bisque is beautiful" was mostly a reaction to "Motif blue.") So yeah, stop shoving Help all the way to the right, and give me sensible behaviour for dropdowns and cascades. -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin |
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From: Larry M. <lm...@bi...> - 2009-12-23 19:09:21
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On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 02:07:40PM -0500, Kevin Kenny wrote: > The '80s called. They want their menus back. > > I don't need Motif any more. Not even as an option. (I never liked > it all that well the first time around. "Bisque is beautiful" was > mostly a reaction to "Motif blue.") > > So yeah, stop shoving Help all the way to the right, and give me > sensible behaviour for dropdowns and cascades. +1000 -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com |
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From: Joe E. <jen...@fl...> - 2009-12-24 20:44:09
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Pat Thoyts wrote:
> Joe English writes:
> >... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing
> >the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor.
>
> I don't get such an arrow with 8.5 or 8.4 on Ubuntu. I dont see any Xrdb
> options controlling this so maybe you have overidden this yourself?
Oops, nevermind. Somebody already changed it:
2008-08-25 (bug fix)[1023955] default menu cursor: no more Motif (helfter)
> The
> tkUnixDefault.h file has
> #define DEF_MENU_CURSOR "arrow"
> but this seems to have been this way forever.
The X11 "arrow" cursor is a right-pointing arrow.
"left_ptr" is the usual one. The option is ineffective
under normal circumstances due to grabs, but you can
still see it on torn-off menus.
--Joe English
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From: Larry W. V. <lv...@gm...> - 2009-12-26 14:20:32
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I support an environment where appearance changes are really disliked by the 500+ users that are being supported. It would really be useful if when such changes were made, a means were provided so that a developer has some chance to set an option/flag/etc. to get things back to the old way. -- Tcl - The glue of a new generation. http://wiki.tcl.tk/ Larry W. Virden http://www.xanga.com/lvirden/ Even if explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting should be construed as representing my employer's opinions. |
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From: Larry M. <lm...@bi...> - 2009-12-26 15:16:06
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On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 09:20:21AM -0500, Larry W. Virden wrote: > I support an environment where appearance changes are really disliked > by the 500+ users that are being supported. It would really be useful > if when such changes were made, a means were provided so that a > developer has some chance to set an option/flag/etc. to get things > back to the old way. Well, this seems easy enough to revert if it's that important. Or don't upgrade? I'm all for backwards compat but this is an area that's needed to not be backwards compat for more than a decade. How many years of people laughing at tk must one have before progress is embraced? -- --- Larry McVoy lm at bitmover.com http://www.bitkeeper.com |
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From: Pat T. <pat...@us...> - 2009-12-26 22:32:45
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"Larry W. Virden" <lv...@gm...> writes: >I support an environment where appearance changes are really disliked >by the 500+ users that are being supported. It would really be useful >if when such changes were made, a means were provided so that a >developer has some chance to set an option/flag/etc. to get things >back to the old way. In TIP #360 which I've done for this change I have included a mechanism to retain the old behaviour using the options database. As Jeff pointed out we also have tk::classic::restore which allows reverting all kinds of new-style look and feel and the menuing changes can be included in this as well. -- Pat Thoyts http://www.patthoyts.tk/ PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97 10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD |
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