tcl-core — Tcl Core Team discussions about Tcl development

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP #360 "Modernize X11 Menus"

[Jan N. <nij...@us...>]

> Votes to this list by [clock format 1262908800], which
> is sometime next week.

TIP #360: YES

About the suggestion by Kevin that this TIP
is really a bug-fix and should be applied to
Tk 8.5 as well, I partly agree. The TIP
proposes two separate changes.
- focus-follows-mouse. This change removes the need for
  an extra click in cascase menu's. If someone asked my
  opinion, I would be OK with considering this a bug-fix
  and backporting it to 8.5.
- Special handling of .help menu entries. This produces a
  visual change in existing applications, which no-one
  expects in a patch release. So, in my view, this change
  requires a TIP, no matter how small and valid the
  suggested change is.

Regards,
        Jan Nijtmans

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP #360 "Modernize X11 Menus"

[Jeff H. <je...@ac...>]

On 2010-01-02, at 1:23 PM, Joe English wrote:
> Votes to this list by [clock format 1262908800], which
> is sometime next week.

TIP #360: YES

Jeff

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP #360 "Modernize X11 Menus"

[Donal K. F. <don...@ma...>]

On 02/01/2010 21:23, Joe English wrote:
> Votes to this list by [clock format 1262908800], which
> is sometime next week.

TIP#360: YES

Donal.

Re: [TCLCORE] CFV: TIP #360 "Modernize X11 Menus"

[Kevin K. <kev...@gm...>]

Joe English wrote:
> Pat Thoyts wrote:
>> I want to move this along fast so:
>> (a) is a TIP vote required for the changes listed in TIP 360
>> (b) if so can someone call it.
>>
>> Part (a) is because its been suggested that this is realy just bug
>> fixing.
> 
> I'm going to say "no" to part (a) but (b) issue the CFV anyway.
> 
> "No" to (a) since the TIP says "Tcl-Version: 8.6" and
> this really ought to be applied to 8.5.next as well.
> And (b) issue the CFV anyway to have an Official Record
> that the change is approved (which it obviously will be).

(a) NO. This is a bugfix. But possibly controversial, so the
     public discussion of the TIP was useful.
(b) YES. The 1980s called. They want their menus back. Let's
     try at least to have 1990s-style menus. (Anything better
     will have to wait for someone who has the combination of
     skills, time and daring to venture into styled menus.)

-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

[TCLCORE] CFV: TIP #360 "Modernize X11 Menus"

[Joe E. <jen...@fl...>]

Pat Thoyts wrote:
>
> I want to move this along fast so:
> (a) is a TIP vote required for the changes listed in TIP 360
> (b) if so can someone call it.
>
> Part (a) is because its been suggested that this is realy just bug
> fixing.

I'm going to say "no" to part (a) but (b) issue the CFV anyway.

"No" to (a) since the TIP says "Tcl-Version: 8.6" and
this really ought to be applied to 8.5.next as well.
And (b) issue the CFV anyway to have an Official Record
that the change is approved (which it obviously will be).

Votes to this list by [clock format 1262908800], which
is sometime next week.

My vote:

TIP#360: YES.


--Joe English

  jen...@fl...

[TCLCORE] TIP #360 unix menu update

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

I want to move this along fast so:
(a) is a TIP vote required for the changes listed in TIP 360
(b) if so can someone call it.

Part (a) is because its been suggested that this is realy just bug
fixing.

-- 
Pat Thoyts                            http://www.patthoyts.tk/
PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97  10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD

Re: [TCLCORE] tclsh

[Donal K. F. <don...@ma...>]

On 23/12/2009 22:38, Brij Saini wrote:
> I m looking for TCLSH for my router cisco 1700/1800 , if ADSL
> interface goes down, it should shut/no shut if its still down reload the
> router is it possible to write this script

That question is inappropriate for this mailing list, which is focussed
on the development of Tcl itself. Instead, try asking on the newsgroup
comp.lang.tcl which for whole Tcl community. I see that you've got a
Google account already, so a very convenient way to access c.l.t is
through Google Groups:

    http://groups.google.co.uk/group/comp.lang.tcl/topics

(I can't answer your question anyway. You need someone with more
specific experience in a useful area than me.)

Donal.

Re: [TCLCORE] Echo Client ?

[Arjen M. <arj...@de...>]

Hello,

you better ask this type of questions on the comp.lang.tcl
newsgroup. The tcl-core mailing list is meant for discussing
the implementation of Tcl and Tk themselves.

I am not experienced in these matters, so I can not help you
out with this. A great place to look for information besides
the newsgroup is the Tclers' Wiki - http://wiki.tcl.tk.

Regards,

Arjen

On 2009-12-29 23:39, ArealPerson wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I'm new to tcl
> Could someone please show me how to connect to the
> echo service on port 7 of all Linux localhost machine.
> 
> All the documentation I find only showes how to
> connect to a custom server, and I can't get it to work
> 
> This will not work...
> set sock [socket -async localhost 7]
> fileevent $sock w {set connected 1}
> global connected
> puts $sock "From the local echo service"
> gets $sock
> 
> Thanks much!
>  

[TCLCORE] Echo Client ?

[ArealPerson <del...@gm...>]

Hi,
I'm new to tcl
Could someone please show me how to connect to the
echo service on port 7 of all Linux localhost machine.

All the documentation I find only showes how to
connect to a custom server, and I can't get it to work

This will not work...
set sock [socket -async localhost 7]
fileevent $sock w {set connected 1}
global connected
puts $sock "From the local echo service"
gets $sock

Thanks much!
 
-- 
View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Echo-Client---tp26961521p26961521.html
Sent from the tcl-core mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

"Larry W. Virden" <lv...@gm...> writes:

>I support an environment where appearance changes are really disliked
>by the 500+ users that are being supported. It would really be useful
>if when such changes were made, a means were provided so that a
>developer has some chance to set an option/flag/etc. to get things
>back to the old way.

In TIP #360 which I've done for this change I have included a mechanism
to retain the old behaviour using the options database.
As Jeff pointed out we also have tk::classic::restore which allows
reverting all kinds of new-style look and feel and the menuing changes
can be included in this as well.
-- 
Pat Thoyts                            http://www.patthoyts.tk/
PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97  10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Larry M. <lm...@bi...>]

On Sat, Dec 26, 2009 at 09:20:21AM -0500, Larry W. Virden wrote:
> I support an environment where appearance changes are really disliked
> by the 500+ users that are being supported. It would really be useful
> if when such changes were made, a means were provided so that a
> developer has some chance to set an option/flag/etc. to get things
> back to the old way.

Well, this seems easy enough to revert if it's that important.  Or don't
upgrade?

I'm all for backwards compat but this is an area that's needed to not
be backwards compat for more than a decade.  How many years of people
laughing at tk must one have before progress is embraced?
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Larry W. V. <lv...@gm...>]

I support an environment where appearance changes are really disliked
by the 500+ users that are being supported. It would really be useful
if when such changes were made, a means were provided so that a
developer has some chance to set an option/flag/etc. to get things
back to the old way.



-- 
Tcl - The glue of a new generation.   http://wiki.tcl.tk/
Larry W. Virden
http://www.xanga.com/lvirden/
Even if explicitly stated to the contrary, nothing in this posting
should be construed as representing my employer's opinions.

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP #360: Modernize X11 Menus

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

Joe English <jen...@fl...> writes:

>Pat Thoyts wrote:
>>  TIP #360: MODERNIZE X11 MENUS
>
>This looks good - both the specification and the implementation.
>Initial feedback here and on the chat has been universally positive.
>I see no reason not to fast-track this.
>
>Notes and nits:
>
>Instead of new *Menu.useMotifHelp and *Menu.clickToFocus XRDB
>options, it might be better to just check Tk_StrictMotif() /
>$::tk_strictMotif instead.  No need to proliferate feechur options.

I'll disagree there. Setting tk_strictMotif makes some widespread
changes. For instance the tk_getOpenFile dialog switches to a version
that doesn't use ttk widgets. The reason I wanted to provide for
disabling the help menu position fix is that when I asked in the chat
about this I found that tkabber recently changed to make use of
this. They have some dynamic menu changes and wanted to stop the menu
bouncing about quite so much. Given that is a fairly small sample of Tk
users there are likely to be a number more that actively want to keep
this. But its not going to be helpful to roll that into a general 'use
Motif' flag.

>The patch at SourceForge does not update the "DEFAULT BINDINGS"
>section of the menu(3tk) manpage, which may now be out of date.

Yes - I pushed it early to get some testers.

>And a meta-note: I don't think this is the sort of change
>that ought to require a TIP.  I will certainly vote YES on this,
>but it could equally well be considered a bugfix.

I felt that it could do with a reasonably wide exposure to test the
amount of complaints raised. I never can tell when something will cause
a big commotion and making a TIP of the issue helps with this - everyone
can stick their oar in.

-- 
Pat Thoyts                            http://www.patthoyts.tk/
PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97  10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP #360: Modernize X11 Menus

[Joe E. <jen...@fl...>]

Pat Thoyts wrote:
>  TIP #360: MODERNIZE X11 MENUS

This looks good - both the specification and the implementation.
Initial feedback here and on the chat has been universally positive.
I see no reason not to fast-track this.

Notes and nits:

Instead of new *Menu.useMotifHelp and *Menu.clickToFocus XRDB
options, it might be better to just check Tk_StrictMotif() /
$::tk_strictMotif instead.  No need to proliferate feechur options.

(Also: Tk menus don't work "strictly Motifly" even now --
the hover/active visual feedback is different -- but this really
isn't worth fixing at this point.)

The patch at SourceForge does not update the "DEFAULT BINDINGS"
section of the menu(3tk) manpage, which may now be out of date.

And a meta-note: I don't think this is the sort of change
that ought to require a TIP.  I will certainly vote YES on this,
but it could equally well be considered a bugfix.


--Joe English

  jen...@fl...

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Joe E. <jen...@fl...>]

Pat Thoyts wrote:
> Joe English writes:
> >... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing
> >the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor.
>
> I don't get such an arrow with 8.5 or 8.4 on Ubuntu. I dont see any Xrdb
> options controlling this so maybe you have overidden this yourself?

Oops, nevermind.  Somebody already changed it:

    2008-08-25 (bug fix)[1023955] default menu cursor: no more Motif (helfter)


> The
> tkUnixDefault.h file has
> #define DEF_MENU_CURSOR "arrow"
> but this seems to have been this way forever.

The X11 "arrow" cursor is a right-pointing arrow.
"left_ptr" is the usual one.  The option is ineffective
under normal circumstances due to grabs, but you can
still see it on torn-off menus.



--Joe English

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Donal K. F. <don...@ma...>]

On 24/12/2009 09:12, Christophe CURIS wrote:
> I just checked my Xlib manual, "arrow" is actually the right-pointing cursor,
> for the usual looking cursor it should be "left_ptr".
>
> I quickly checked on my side and confirm that the left-pointing cursor is used
> in menubar; Maybe this came from changes in the Tk handling so that "menu"
> supports the "-cursor" option like any other widget?

It's probably set so that there's a pointer for the menu even when the
user sets a different one for the toplevel. (This was an issue for the
old style menubar as buttons-in-a-frame.) Changing the default is
perfectly OK for me; it's entirely possible that it's been wrong all
this time because of someone's mistake years ago. :-)

Donal.

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Christophe C. <chr...@fr...>]

Hello,

On Thursday 24 December 2009 00:06, Pat Thoyts wrote:
> Joe English <jen...@fl...> writes:
> >... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing
> >the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor.
>
> I don't get such an arrow with 8.5 or 8.4 on Ubuntu. I dont see any Xrdb
> options controlling this so maybe you have overidden this yourself?  The
> tkUnixDefault.h file has
> #define DEF_MENU_CURSOR "arrow"
> but this seems to have been this way forever.

I just checked my Xlib manual, "arrow" is actually the right-pointing cursor, 
for the usual looking cursor it should be "left_ptr".

I quickly checked on my side and confirm that the left-pointing cursor is used 
in menubar; Maybe this came from changes in the Tk handling so that "menu" 
supports the "-cursor" option like any other widget?

Christophe.

[TCLCORE] TIP #360: Modernize X11 Menus

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

 TIP #360: MODERNIZE X11 MENUS 
===============================
 Version:      $Revision: 1.2 $
 Author:       Pat Thoyts <patthoyts_at_users.sourceforge.net>
 State:        Draft
 Type:         Project
 Tcl-Version:  8.6
 Vote:         Pending
 Created:      Thursday, 24 December 2009
 URL:          http://purl.org/tcl/tip/360.html
 WebEdit:      http://purl.org/tcl/tip/edit/360
 Post-History: 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 ABSTRACT 
==========

 This TIP proposes to modernize the functionality of the Tk menus on X11 
 to bring Tk up to date with reference to other toolkits on this 
 platform. 

 RATIONALE 
===========

 Motif is dead and buried but Tk menus are still aping the Motif feel 
 for *menu* handling on X11. Specifically all cascade menu items must be 
 actively clicked to open the submenu. Other current toolkits work more 
 like the Windows menus where once one of the menubar items has been 
 clicked to activate its dropdown then subsequent mouse motion is 
 sufficient to open any cascade menu on the menubar or from any of its 
 dropdown menus. 

 Tk provides magic handling for any menubar item whose name ends in 
 *.help*. Specifically such a menu gets pinned to the extreme right of 
 the menubar. This is sufficiently unusual that users often miss the 
 help menu completely if they are used to Windows or GNOME applications. 
 This is a hangover from 1990 and needs to go. 

 SPECIFICATION 
===============

 The menu bindings will be modified to provide a concept of an activated 
 menubar. Once any of the menubar cascade entries has been activated 
 then the current active item will follow the mouse motion and explicit 
 clicks will not be required to activate cascade entries. A small delay 
 will be included when posting a cascade entry except when posting from 
 the menubar. The activation is cancelled on hitting escape, selecting a 
 menu entry or clicking outside the menu. 

 If the new 'focus-follows-mouse' style behaviour is undesirable it can 
 be disabled using the Tk options database. The Menu option 
 *clickToFocus* may be set true to restore the original menu behaviour. 
 This can be set using the Tk *option* command, the X resource database, 
 or by calling *tk::classic::restore menu*. 

 The special handling of *.help* menu entries in the menubar will be 
 removed unless restored using the resource option **Menu.useMotifHelp*. 
 This can be set using the Tk *option* command, the X resource database 
 or by calling the *tk::classic::restore* command which will set the 
 option along with some others. 

 REFERENCE IMPLEMENTATION 
==========================

 Patches posted as Tk patch item #2920409 
 [<URL:https://sourceforge.net/support/tracker.php?aid=2920409>]. 

 COPYRIGHT 
===========

 This document has been placed in the public domain. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 TIP AutoGenerator - written by Donal K. Fellows 

[TCLCORE] Modernize X11 menus.

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

Title: Modernize X11 menus.
Author: Pat Thoyts <pat...@us...>
Type: Project
State: Draft
Tcl-Version: 8.6
Keywords: Tk, X11, menu

~ Abstract

This TIP proposes to modernize the functionality of the Tk menus on X11
to bring Tk up to date with reference to other toolkits on this platform.

~ Rationale

Motif is dead and buried but Tk menus are still aping the Motif feel
for menu handling on X11. Specifically all cascade menu items must
be actively clicked to open the submenu. Other current toolkits work
more like the Windows menus where once one of the menubar items has
been clicked to activate its dropdown then subsequent mouse motion is
sufficient to open any cascade menu on the menubar or from any of its
dropdown menus.

Tk provides magic handling for any menubar item whose name ends in
.help. Specifically such a menu gets pinned to the extreme right of
the menubar. This is sufficiently unusual that users often miss the
help menu completely if they are used to Windows or GNOME
applications. This is a hangover from 1990 and needs to go.

~ Specification

The menu bindings will be modified to provide a concept of an
activated menubar. Once any of the menubar cascade entries has been
activated then the current active item will follow the mouse motion
and explicit clicks will not be required to activate cascade
entries. A small delay will be included when posting a cascade entry
except when posting from the menubar. The activation is cancelled on
hitting escape, selecting a menu entry or clicking outside the menu.

If the new 'focus-follows-mouse' style behaviour is undesirable it can
be disabled using the Tk options database. The Menu option
'''clickToFocus''' may be set true to restore the original menu
behaviour. This can be set using the Tk '''option''' command, the X
resource database or by calling '''tk::classic::restore menu'''.

The special handling of .help menu entries in the menubar will be
removed unless restored using the resource option
*Menu.useMotifHelp. This can be set using the Tk '''option''' command,
the X resource database or by calling the '''tk::classic::restore'''
command which will set the option along with some others.

~ Reference Implementation

Patches posted as Tk patch item #2920409 [https://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=2920409&group_id=12997&atid=312997].

~ Copyright

This document has been placed in the public domain.

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

Joe English <jen...@fl...> writes:

>I for one would not be annoyed at all.  Don't want an option to
>put it back on the right either.
>
>... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing
>the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor.

I don't get such an arrow with 8.5 or 8.4 on Ubuntu. I dont see any Xrdb
options controlling this so maybe you have overidden this yourself?  The
tkUnixDefault.h file has 
#define DEF_MENU_CURSOR "arrow"
but this seems to have been this way forever.

-- 
Pat Thoyts                            http://www.patthoyts.tk/
PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97  10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD

Re: [TCLCORE] [PATCH] unix-menus: Make Tk menu activation follow mouse movement.

[Pat T. <pat...@us...>]

Joe English <jen...@fl...> writes:

>The patch makes top-level menubars feel much better -- dropdown on
>hover instead of dragdown is definitely the way to go.  (One minor
>issue with the patch: if the mouse moves into a blank area of the
>menubar it unposts the menu; this is disconcerting for clumsy mousers
>like myself.  It should leave the current menu posted.)

I have fixed this now. That matches the gnome menubar behaviour.

>For cascaded submenus, it's mixed.  There ought to be a slight (~50ms?)
>delay before posting the submenu when the mouse moves over a cascade
>entry.  It's a small thing, most people might not even notice, but
>failing to do so can make the menu completely unusable if the menu is
>close to the right edge of the screen and the submenu is wide enough
>that posting it obscures the first menu.

I can see this occurs in the gnome menus and it looks potentially
useful. It is also not hard to implement so thats done too. I've made
this only delay for submenus - when posting a cascade from the menubar
the delay is 0.

>(OTOH, this condition could equally well be considered a bug in the
>application: menu too complex to be usable.  On the *other* other hand,
>this is very likely to affect the "Help" menu unless we also abandon
>the CUA/Win95/Motif convention of shoving that over to the right.)

Die, Motif, die! The subject of my other post.

>(Personally, I prefer Tk's current click-to-post model
>for cascaded submenus -- again, clumsy mouser -- but
>concede that on the whole the proposed behavior is better.
>I'll just deal with it.)

There is always one! As Jeff suggests, an option can be used to restore
the ancient behaviour. I've added support for a Menu.clickToFocus option
for the old zimmer-mouse users and this can be added to the tk::classic
restore_menu code.

I have checked this on windows and it did not interfere with normal
windows menu handling. It will need a check on MacOSX by someone but
there is only one place that is really active in this code where a
platform check might need to be added (in the Motion code).

-- 
Pat Thoyts                            http://www.patthoyts.tk/
PGP fingerprint 2C 6E 98 07 2C 59 C8 97  10 CE 11 E6 04 E0 B9 DD

[TCLCORE] tclsh

[Brij S. <bri...@gm...>]

Hi All
I m looking for TCLSH for my router cisco 1700/1800 , if ADSL interface goes
down, it should shut/no shut if its still down reload the router is it
possible to write this script

Cheers
Bhushan

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Larry M. <lm...@bi...>]

On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 02:07:40PM -0500, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> The '80s called. They want their menus back.
> 
> I don't need Motif any more.  Not even as an option. (I never liked
> it all that well the first time around. "Bisque is beautiful" was
> mostly a reaction to "Motif blue.")
> 
> So yeah, stop shoving Help all the way to the right, and give me
> sensible behaviour for dropdowns and cascades.

+1000
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Kevin K. <kev...@gm...>]

The '80s called. They want their menus back.

I don't need Motif any more.  Not even as an option. (I never liked
it all that well the first time around. "Bisque is beautiful" was
mostly a reaction to "Motif blue.")

So yeah, stop shoving Help all the way to the right, and give me
sensible behaviour for dropdowns and cascades.

-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

Re: [TCLCORE] The .help menu position.

[Joe E. <jen...@fl...>]

Pat Thoyts wrote:
>
> Another request for comments on Tk menus changes...
>
> I would like to stop the ancient practice of sticking the .help menu to
> the far right of the screen on X11 as this is now an out-moded
> practice. No other toolkit appears to be doing this anymore. Preventing
> this is trivial but it has been indicated that people might want to keep
> this as a feature. It would be possible to add a -anchor option to menu
> items for this (-anchor e) as this is not currently used. In some ways
> this would have been preferable all along avoiding the 'magic name'
> effect on .help. However I would like to see how annoyed people might
> get about this.


I for one would not be annoyed at all.  Don't want an option to
put it back on the right either.

... and while we're at it, we might as well consider changing
the default (right-pointing) arrow -cursor.

(Using a different menu -cursor actually has a small usability
benefit -- it gives additional visual feedback that a menu is
active -- but no other toolkits do this any more and it sometimes
frightens and confuses people.)


--Joe English

  jen...@fl...