tcl-core — Tcl Core Team discussions about Tcl development

Re: [TCLCORE] [External] Re: TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Steve L. <st...@di...>]

FWIW I agree with Marc.

Mac hardware lasts a long time in my experience and I have old equipment dedicated to specific tasks that is still running happily (not internet facing so I’m not concerned about the security).  Being able to run Tcl 9 its a bonus if it doesn’t cost us anything.

-- Steve
On 15 Mar 2025 at 5:50 AM +0800, Marc Culler <cul...@gm...>, wrote:
> I would advocate supporting macOS 10.13 and newer.  The reason is that there is no issue right now with building or running Tk9 on
> macOS 10.13 and newer.  It takes no extra work for us to support those versions.  The current tiip of main even passes all tests on 10.13.  And we have recently had several very useful tickets opened by Eric Brunel based on testing on 10.13 but applicable generally.
>
> I think that as long as it costs us nothing and provides even a tiny marginal benefit, then we should do it.
>
> - Marc
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I saw a lot of Intel64 that cannot go after macOS 10.15.7 (without OpenCore)
> >
> > ++
> >
> > > Le jeu. 13 mars 2025 à 14:53, da Silva, Peter J <pet...@fl...> a écrit :
> > > > With or without OpenCore? If you’re talking about 32-bit machines, I suspect excluding them was intended:
> > > >
> > > > > “It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64”
> > > >
> > > > From: nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
> > > > Date: Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:44
> > > > To: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>
> > > > Cc: Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>
> > > > Subject: [External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
> > > > Hi,
> > > > regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from
> > > > macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019
> > > >
> > > > As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tcl-Core mailing list
> > Tcl...@li...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

Re: [TCLCORE] [External] Re: TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Marc C. <cul...@gm...>]

I would advocate supporting macOS 10.13 and newer.  The reason is that
there is no issue right now with building or running Tk9 on
macOS 10.13 and newer.  It takes no extra work for us to support those
versions.  The current tiip of main even passes all tests on 10.13.  And we
have recently had several very useful tickets opened by Eric Brunel based
on testing on 10.13 but applicable generally.

I think that as long as it costs us nothing and provides even a tiny
marginal benefit, then we should do it.

- Marc

On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 9:00 AM nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...> wrote:

> Hi,
> I saw a lot of Intel64 that cannot go after macOS 10.15.7 (without
> OpenCore)
>
> ++
>
> Le jeu. 13 mars 2025 à 14:53, da Silva, Peter J <
> pet...@fl...> a écrit :
>
>> With or without OpenCore? If you’re talking about 32-bit machines, I
>> suspect excluding them was intended:
>>
>> > “It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020.
>> This would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64”
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
>> *Date: *Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:44
>> *To: *Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>
>> *Cc: *Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <
>> tcl...@li...>
>> *Subject: *[External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and
>> build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from
>>
>> macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019
>>
>>
>>
>> As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
>

[TCLCORE] OpenACS/TCL/Tk conference in Bologna/Italy at July 10th and 11th 2025: call for participation and abstracts

[Harald O. <har...@el...>]

Dear Tcl/Tk fans,

please allow us to invite you to the OpenACS/TCL/Tk user meeting

   July 10th - July 11th, 2025

We would be delighted to welcome you to "La Dotta" ("The Learned"), also 
known as Bologna, Italy!

All information is on the conference web page:

https://openacs.km.at/

Registration is now open.

Please also submit your abstracts for talks until 17th of June 2025. We 
will have short and long time slots.
Any contribution is warmly welcome! It is a user meeting and we all 
tell, what we do with OpenACS/Tcl/Tk and friends. That is the concept.

On behalf of all excited organisers:

      Gustaf Neumann
      Harald Oehlmann
      Antonio Pisano
      Bernd Simon
      Stefan Sobernig

[TCLCORE] tclx package - chmod command

[Brian G. <bri...@ea...>]

Dropping leading '0' octal numbers in Tcl 9 leads to a failure of the Tclx [chmod] command. :)

One of those Oh! moments trying to figure out why the chmod tests were failing.

Just sharing the joy!
-Brian

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Donal F. <don...@ma...>]

IIRC, don't we distribute the configure scripts so it's not even a build time requirement so much a distribution time requirement?

Donal.

________________________________
From: Jan Nijtmans <jan...@gm...>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2025 16:36
To: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>
Cc: Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>
Subject: Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

Op do 13 mrt 2025 om 17:21 schreef Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...<mailto:a.s...@gm...>>:
glibc >= 2.34
X11 >= R6
autoconf >= 2.72

Clarifying: autoconf is a build-time requirement not a
runtime-requirement like the other two. You don't need
autoconf to be installed on your machine to run Tcl/Tk.

Thanks!
       Jan Nijtmans

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Jan N. <jan...@gm...>]

Op do 13 mrt 2025 om 17:21 schreef Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>:

> glibc >= 2.34
> X11 >= R6
> autoconf >= 2.72
>

Clarifying: autoconf is a build-time requirement not a
runtime-requirement like the other two. You don't need
autoconf to be installed on your machine to run Tcl/Tk.

Thanks!
       Jan Nijtmans

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[B H. <bra...@gm...>]

> On Mar 13, 2025, at 09:22, Alexander Schöpe via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...> wrote:
> 
> Yes, I think your description is a bit more complete.
> 
> So:
> 
> glibc >= 2.34
> X11 >= R6
> autoconf >= 2.72
> 

NB, not all libc installations are glibc (BSD, for starters), and even Linux runs various libc implementations (musl, cosmopolitan).

The above list is also mixing build/compile -time concerns with runtime concerns, which we might want to make distinctions for.

While I’m here, I’ve been wondering too: what *language* do we say Tcl/Tk is written in? C89, C99, C17, … Do we have a style-guide (incl C version to use) for *developing* Tcl itself?

Cheers,
-bch

> 
>> Am 13.03.2025 um 15:08 schrieb Jan Nijtmans <jan...@gm...>:
>> 
>> Op do 13 mrt 2025 om 14:39 schreef Alexander Schöpe via Tcl-Core:
>> A practical definition could be: “We support X11-based Linux distributions as long as they use glibc >= 2.31 and a current X.Org server.”
>> 
>> Specifying glibc version is quite clear. Any objection to raising the
>> minimum glibc version for Tcl/Tk 9.1 to 2.34? That in combination
>> with autoconf-2.72?
>> 
>> When Tcl/Tk 9.1 becomes final, autoconf-2.72 will be sufficiently
>> spreaded out. Advantage: autoconf-2.72 has additional macro's
>> for ensuring 64-bit time_t on all machines, but it needs glibc 2.34.
>> Currently we cannot use those macro's because they are
>> not available in autoconf 2.69/70/71.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>>       Jan Nijtmans
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Alexander S. <a.s...@gm...>]

Yes, I think your description is a bit more complete.

So:

glibc >= 2.34
X11 >= R6
autoconf >= 2.72


> Am 13.03.2025 um 15:08 schrieb Jan Nijtmans <jan...@gm...>:
> 
> Op do 13 mrt 2025 om 14:39 schreef Alexander Schöpe via Tcl-Core:
> A practical definition could be: “We support X11-based Linux distributions as long as they use glibc >= 2.31 and a current X.Org server.”
> 
> Specifying glibc version is quite clear. Any objection to raising the
> minimum glibc version for Tcl/Tk 9.1 to 2.34? That in combination
> with autoconf-2.72?
> 
> When Tcl/Tk 9.1 becomes final, autoconf-2.72 will be sufficiently
> spreaded out. Advantage: autoconf-2.72 has additional macro's
> for ensuring 64-bit time_t on all machines, but it needs glibc 2.34.
> Currently we cannot use those macro's because they are
> not available in autoconf 2.69/70/71.
> 
> Thanks!
>        Jan Nijtmans
> 

Re: [TCLCORE] [External] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Alexander S. <a.s...@gm...>]

OpenCore needs about 1/2 year to make the adjustments for the old hardware.
I still have an old MacBook Pro 2012, MacBook Pro 2025, iMac 2014 (all Intel) these devices are all supported by OpenCore up to Sequoia.
I am currently working on a MacBook Pro M2.

> Am 13.03.2025 um 16:09 schrieb da Silva, Peter J <pet...@fl...>:
> 
> My Mac Pro 5,1 officially can’t go past Mojave (10.14), but it can go to Sonoma at least with OpenCore. Probably Sequoia too.
>  From: nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
> Date: Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:59
> To: da Silva, Peter J (USA) <pet...@fl...>
> Cc: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>, Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>
> Subject: Re: [External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
> Hi,
> I saw a lot of Intel64 that cannot go after macOS 10.15.7 (without OpenCore)
>  ++
>  Le jeu. 13 mars 2025 à 14:53, da Silva, Peter J <pet...@fl...> a écrit :
> With or without OpenCore? If you’re talking about 32-bit machines, I suspect excluding them was intended:
> 
> > “It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64”
>  From: nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
> Date: Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:44
> To: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>
> Cc: Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>
> Subject: [External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
> Hi,
> regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from 
> macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019
>  As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur

Re: [TCLCORE] [External] Re: TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[da S. P. J <pet...@fl...>]

My Mac Pro 5,1 officially can’t go past Mojave (10.14), but it can go to Sonoma at least with OpenCore. Probably Sequoia too.

From: nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
Date: Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:59
To: da Silva, Peter J (USA) <pet...@fl...>
Cc: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>, Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>
Subject: Re: [External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
Hi,
I saw a lot of Intel64 that cannot go after macOS 10.15.7 (without OpenCore)

++

Le jeu. 13 mars 2025 à 14:53, da Silva, Peter J <pet...@fl...<mailto:pet...@fl...>> a écrit :
With or without OpenCore? If you’re talking about 32-bit machines, I suspect excluding them was intended:

> “It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64”

From: nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...<mailto:sl1...@gm...>>
Date: Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:44
To: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...<mailto:a.s...@gm...>>
Cc: Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...<mailto:tcl...@li...>>
Subject: [External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
Hi,
regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from
macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019

As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Jan N. <jan...@gm...>]

Op do 13 mrt 2025 om 14:39 schreef Alexander Schöpe via Tcl-Core:

> A practical definition could be: “We support X11-based Linux distributions
> as long as they use glibc >= 2.31 and a current X.Org server.”
>

Specifying glibc version is quite clear. Any objection to raising the
minimum glibc version for Tcl/Tk 9.1 to *2.34*? That in combination
with autoconf-2.72?

When Tcl/Tk 9.1 becomes final, autoconf-2.72 will be sufficiently
spreaded out. Advantage: autoconf-2.72 has additional macro's
for ensuring 64-bit time_t on all machines, but it needs glibc 2.34.
Currently we cannot use those macro's because they are
not available in autoconf 2.69/70/71.

Thanks!
       Jan Nijtmans

Re: [TCLCORE] [External] Re: TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[nicolas b. <sl1...@gm...>]

Hi,
I saw a lot of Intel64 that cannot go after macOS 10.15.7 (without OpenCore)

++

Le jeu. 13 mars 2025 à 14:53, da Silva, Peter J <
pet...@fl...> a écrit :

> With or without OpenCore? If you’re talking about 32-bit machines, I
> suspect excluding them was intended:
>
> > “It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This
> would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64”
>
>
>
> *From: *nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
> *Date: *Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:44
> *To: *Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>
> *Cc: *Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <
> tcl...@li...>
> *Subject: *[External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and
> build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
>
> Hi,
>
> regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from
>
> macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019
>
>
>
> As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur
>

Re: [TCLCORE] [External] Re: TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[da S. P. J <pet...@fl...>]

With or without OpenCore? If you’re talking about 32-bit machines, I suspect excluding them was intended:

> “It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64”

From: nicolas bats <sl1...@gm...>
Date: Thursday, March 13, 2025 at 08:44
To: Alexander Schöpe <a.s...@gm...>
Cc: Dipl. Ing. Sergey G. Brester via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>
Subject: [External] Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1
Hi,
regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from
macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019

As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[nicolas b. <sl1...@gm...>]

Hi,
regrading macOS I would strongly be in favor to support from
macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019

As several old machines cannot go to Big Sur

best regards,
nicolas

Le jeu. 13 mars 2025 à 14:39, Alexander Schöpe via Tcl-Core <
tcl...@li...> a écrit :

> Hi all,
>
> I’d like to share my thoughts on the supported platforms for Tcl/Tk,
> particularly regarding macOS and Linux.
>
> macOS
>
> In my opinion, we should set macOS 11 (Big Sur) as the minimum version for
> future Tcl/Tk releases. Apple no longer supports versions prior to 2020,
> and most modern macOS applications already require at least macOS 11. When
> compiling Tcl/Tk, I use the following flags:
> CFLAGS="-arch arm64 -arch x86_64 -mmacosx-version-min=11.0"
> It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This
> would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64 (M1 and newer), aligning with
> Apple’s transition to Apple Silicon.
>
> Mac OS X 10.0   Cheetah         PowerPC 32              March 24, 2001
> Mac OS X 10.1   Puma            PowerPC 32              September 25, 2001
> Mac OS X 10.2   Jaguar          PowerPC 32 / 64         August 24, 2002
> Mac OS X 10.3   Panther         PowerPC 32 / 64         October 24, 2003
> Mac OS X 10.4   Tiger           PowerPC and Intel 32/64 April 29, 2005
> Mac OS X 10.5   Leopard         PowerPC and Intel 32/64 August 13, 2009
> Mac OS X 10.6   Snow Leopard    Intel 32 / 64           August 28, 2009
> Mac OS X 10.7   Lion            Intel 64                July 20, 2011
> OS X 10.8       Mountain Lion   Intel 64                July 25, 2012
> OS X 10.9       Mavericks       Intel 64                October 22, 2013
> OS X 10.10      Yosemite        Intel 64                October 16, 2014
> OS X 10.11      El Capitan      Intel 64                September 30, 2015
> macOS 10.12     Sierra          Intel 64                September 20, 2016
> macOS 10.13     High Sierra     Intel 64                September 25, 2017
> macOS 10.14     Mojave          Intel 64                September 24, 2018
> macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019
> macOS 11        Big Sur         Intel and ARM 64        November 12, 2020
> macOS 12        Monterey        Intel and ARM 64        October 25, 2021
> macOS 13        Ventura         Intel and ARM 64        October 24, 2022
> macOS 14        Sonoma          Intel and ARM 64        September 26, 2023
> macOS 15        Sequoia         Intel and ARM 64        September 16, 2024
>
> Linux
>
> For Linux, the situation seems simpler. We should continue focusing on
> X11-based distributions, as there is still no complete Wayland port.
> Supported distributions could include:
> • Ubuntu LTS versions (e.g., 20.04, 22.04, 24.04)
> • Debian Stable (currently Bookworm)
> • Fedora (for up-to-date features and testing)
> • openSUSE Leap / Tumbleweed
> • Arch Linux (for rolling-release testing)
>
> A practical definition could be: “We support X11-based Linux distributions
> as long as they use glibc >= 2.31 and a current X.Org server.”
>
> This approach would reduce maintenance effort while covering all relevant
> and actively used systems.
>
> Summary
> • macOS: Minimum version should be macOS 11, supporting only Intel-64 and
> ARM64 (M1 and newer).
> • Linux: Focus on X11-based distributions; Wayland support is not yet
> considered.
>
> What do you think about this approach?
>
> Best,
> Alex
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
>

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Alexander S. <a.s...@gm...>]

Hi all,

I’d like to share my thoughts on the supported platforms for Tcl/Tk, particularly regarding macOS and Linux.

macOS

In my opinion, we should set macOS 11 (Big Sur) as the minimum version for future Tcl/Tk releases. Apple no longer supports versions prior to 2020, and most modern macOS applications already require at least macOS 11. When compiling Tcl/Tk, I use the following flags:
CFLAGS="-arch arm64 -arch x86_64 -mmacosx-version-min=11.0"
It makes sense to drop support for all macOS versions before 2020. This would limit support to Intel-64 and ARM64 (M1 and newer), aligning with Apple’s transition to Apple Silicon.

Mac OS X 10.0   Cheetah         PowerPC 32              March 24, 2001
Mac OS X 10.1   Puma            PowerPC 32              September 25, 2001
Mac OS X 10.2   Jaguar          PowerPC 32 / 64         August 24, 2002
Mac OS X 10.3   Panther         PowerPC 32 / 64         October 24, 2003
Mac OS X 10.4   Tiger           PowerPC and Intel 32/64 April 29, 2005
Mac OS X 10.5   Leopard         PowerPC and Intel 32/64 August 13, 2009
Mac OS X 10.6   Snow Leopard    Intel 32 / 64           August 28, 2009
Mac OS X 10.7   Lion            Intel 64                July 20, 2011
OS X 10.8       Mountain Lion   Intel 64                July 25, 2012
OS X 10.9       Mavericks       Intel 64                October 22, 2013
OS X 10.10      Yosemite        Intel 64                October 16, 2014
OS X 10.11      El Capitan      Intel 64                September 30, 2015
macOS 10.12     Sierra          Intel 64                September 20, 2016
macOS 10.13     High Sierra     Intel 64                September 25, 2017
macOS 10.14     Mojave          Intel 64                September 24, 2018
macOS 10.15     Catalina        Intel 64                October 7, 2019
macOS 11        Big Sur         Intel and ARM 64        November 12, 2020
macOS 12        Monterey        Intel and ARM 64        October 25, 2021
macOS 13        Ventura         Intel and ARM 64        October 24, 2022
macOS 14        Sonoma          Intel and ARM 64        September 26, 2023
macOS 15        Sequoia         Intel and ARM 64        September 16, 2024

Linux

For Linux, the situation seems simpler. We should continue focusing on X11-based distributions, as there is still no complete Wayland port. Supported distributions could include:
• Ubuntu LTS versions (e.g., 20.04, 22.04, 24.04)
• Debian Stable (currently Bookworm)
• Fedora (for up-to-date features and testing)
• openSUSE Leap / Tumbleweed
• Arch Linux (for rolling-release testing)

A practical definition could be: “We support X11-based Linux distributions as long as they use glibc >= 2.31 and a current X.Org server.”

This approach would reduce maintenance effort while covering all relevant and actively used systems.

Summary
• macOS: Minimum version should be macOS 11, supporting only Intel-64 and ARM64 (M1 and newer).
• Linux: Focus on X11-based distributions; Wayland support is not yet considered.

What do you think about this approach?

Best,
Alex

Re: [TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[Harald O. <har...@el...>]

Ashok,
thanks, great work !

I would put the text below "Platform tiers" at the beginning.
Anything may be supported, unsupported or obsolete.
I like the condition of two developpers for a supported platform.

I would also add a 4th category: deprecated, what means, that it is 
currently supported, but planned to be obsolate in future versions.

I would put MS-Windows 32 bit support on the deprecated state.

This language of support states may be used in general: release files, 
documentation etc.

So, the TIP may start with the definition of the support states.

I don't know how to organize the chapter "Compiler toolchain and build 
tools" part in the Windows case.
For MS-Windows, we have the following Toolchains in supported state:
- nmake
- configure (native or cross-compile)

I think, the TIP would be better organized by platforms, even, if 
probably quite redundant for Unix flavor platforms.

THanks again,
Harald
Am 13.03.2025 um 12:53 schrieb apnmbx-public--- via Tcl-Core:
> All,
> 
> In Tuesday’s online meet, the need for formally defining supported 
> platforms was raised (triggered by Francois’ post regarding macOS/ 
> XQuartz). As suggested by Harald, I’ve committed TIP 715  (https:// 
> core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/715.md <https://core.tcl-lang.org/ 
> tips/doc/trunk/tip/715.md>) as a *starting* point for discussion. I have 
> no idea what to include for platforms other than Windows.
> 
> Please review and fill in the ???  for the platforms you are familiar 
> with. Or (less preferable) comment here in the mailing list.
> 
> Note as per the discussion, the TIP also proposes C11 as a requirement 
> for 9.1. I am neutral / ambivalent on that and also not sure if it 
> should be included in this particular TIP.
> 
> /Ashok
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core


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[TCLCORE] TIP 715 - Supported platforms and build environments for Tcl/Tk 9.1

[<apn...@ya...>]

All,

 

In Tuesday's online meet, the need for formally defining supported platforms
was raised (triggered by Francois' post regarding macOS/XQuartz). As
suggested by Harald, I've committed TIP 715
(https://core.tcl-lang.org/tips/doc/trunk/tip/715.md) as a starting point
for discussion. I have no idea what to include for platforms other than
Windows.

 

Please review and fill in the ???  for the platforms you are familiar with.
Or (less preferable) comment here in the mailing list.

 

Note as per the discussion, the TIP also proposes C11 as a requirement for
9.1. I am neutral / ambivalent on that and also not sure if it should be
included in this particular TIP.

 

/Ashok

Re: [TCLCORE] What platforms do we support?

[Steve L. <st...@di...>]

Agree with Ashok’s summary.

Perhaps we define what supported means:  builds and substantially passes test suite and there is a volunteer to coordinate testing.  That volunteer might be the GitHub CI or it might be a person.  For example,  is Solaris supported? By that definition it is as long as the test suite is run. If something breaks but no-one volunteers then it isn’t discarded just that release isn’t supported so use at own discretion.

As for XQuartz - that’s just X.org and a number of scientific Tcl/Tk users still rely on it for products built for X11.  It isn’t part of macOS but I’d be loath to abandon support for it in our build tools, at least until someone reports it no longer works.

-- Steve
On 11 Mar 2025 at 11:35 AM +0800, apnmbx-public--- via Tcl-Core <tcl...@li...>, wrote:
> With regards to deprecating platforms/version, I suppose TIP's are the way. For example, TIP 592 deprecated Windows versions prior to Win7 for Tcl 9 (As an aside, Tcl 9 was released four years later so perhaps Win10 should have been the min version, and may be time to TIP that).
>
> I guess the same could be done for macOS.
>
> Linux and BSD variants are more complicated given the splintering of distributions. I am not sure how one could specify supported releases. Combination of distro and version maybe?
>
> For all platforms, there is also the question of what "supported" means if we provide a list. Does it require building and testing on those platforms before claiming they are supported? If so, who does that testing? For Windows, macOS and Ubuntu there is partial support via github. What about the rest? Is a TIP required with volunteers who will commit to testing for specific platforms? Are platforms with no volunteers unsupported?
>
> /Ashok
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francois Vogel <fvo...@fr...>
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2025 12:24 PM
> To: Tcl Core List <tcl...@li...>
> Subject: [TCLCORE] What platforms do we support?
>
> Hi all,
>
> I tried to find a list of platforms we TCT officially support for Tcl/Tk
> development, but I couldn't find anything else than:
>
> https://www.tcl-lang.org/software/tcltk/platforms.html
>
> which I'm questioning the up-to-date status (this is an euphemism).
>
> Where can I read about, say:
>
> - the macOS versions range we officially support (aqua builds)
>
> - the fact we support macOS builds with XQuartz (or also other X servers)
>
> - the range of Windows versions we support
>
> - the list of Linux distros we support (perhaps)
>
> - the fact that we don't support IRIX (any more), contrary to the above link
>
> - and so on.
>
> Something exhaustive, you see?
>
> And then, what is the process for deprecating support for some platform?
> I guess a TIP is needed but IMO this would be logical only if there is
> an official list of supported platforms.
>
> I'm asking because during a discussion I had yesterday with Marc Culler,
> the question about whether it is still useful or not to support macOS
> builds with XQuartz came up. We were questioning whether this was of any
> use to anyone. The list of supported platforms would have been one
> answer to the question (but yes, not THE answer).
>
> Thanks,
>
> François
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tcl-Core mailing list
> Tcl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

Re: [TCLCORE] What platforms do we support?

[<apn...@ya...>]

With regards to deprecating platforms/version, I suppose TIP's are the way. For example, TIP 592 deprecated Windows versions prior to Win7 for Tcl 9 (As an aside, Tcl 9 was released four years later so perhaps Win10 should have been the min version, and may be time to TIP that).

I guess the same could be done for macOS.

Linux and BSD variants are more complicated given the splintering of distributions. I am not sure how one could specify supported releases. Combination of distro and version maybe? 

For all platforms, there is also the question of what "supported" means if we provide a list. Does it require building and testing on those platforms before claiming they are supported? If so, who does that testing? For Windows, macOS and Ubuntu there is partial support via github. What about the rest? Is a TIP required with volunteers who will commit to testing for specific platforms? Are platforms with no volunteers unsupported?

/Ashok



-----Original Message-----
From: Francois Vogel <fvo...@fr...> 
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2025 12:24 PM
To: Tcl Core List <tcl...@li...>
Subject: [TCLCORE] What platforms do we support?

Hi all,

I tried to find a list of platforms we TCT officially support for Tcl/Tk 
development, but I couldn't find anything else than:

https://www.tcl-lang.org/software/tcltk/platforms.html

which I'm questioning the up-to-date status (this is an euphemism).

Where can I read about, say:

- the macOS versions range we officially support (aqua builds)

- the fact we support macOS builds with XQuartz (or also other X servers)

- the range of Windows versions we support

- the list of Linux distros we support (perhaps)

- the fact that we don't support IRIX (any more), contrary to the above link

- and so on.

Something exhaustive, you see?

And then, what is the process for deprecating support for some platform? 
I guess a TIP is needed but IMO this would be logical only if there is 
an official list of supported platforms.

I'm asking because during a discussion I had yesterday with Marc Culler, 
the question about whether it is still useful or not to support macOS 
builds with XQuartz came up. We were questioning whether this was of any 
use to anyone. The list of supported platforms would have been one 
answer to the question (but yes, not THE answer).

Thanks,

François






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Tcl-Core mailing list
Tcl...@li...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core

[TCLCORE] March 11 2025 Tcl monthly meetup reminder

[Steve L. <st...@di...>]

A reminder that the next meetup will be held Tuesday March 11 2025 at [clock format 1741683600]  Tuesday 2am US West, 4am US Central, 5am US East, 9am UTC, 9am UK, 10am Western Europe, 2:30pm India, 5pm Australia West / Singapore / China, 6pm Japan, 8pm Australia East, 10pm New Zealand.

Details (including how to connect) are available via
https://wiki.tcl-lang.org/page/Monthly+Virtual+Meetup

-- Steve

Re: [TCLCORE] MS-Win: remove XP dialogs?

[Harald O. <har...@el...>]

After those positive feed-backs, I have authered a ticket:

https://core.tcl-lang.org/tk/tktview/441c526c0db25bf40389b74b7e7821f13efe472f

The ticket states, that this is changed without a TIP.
It also states, that this is for Tk9.1 only and will not be back-ported.

I invite anybody to speek-up at the ticket, if this is not ok.

Thanks for all,
Harald

Am 10.03.2025 um 10:12 schrieb Harald Oehlmann:
> Am 09.03.2025 um 18:03 schrieb apn...@ya...:
>> +1. Probably could have been done for 9.0 but better late than never.
>>
>> Will use of the option be ignored or raise an error?
> 
> Thanks for the answer.
> As it was never documented, I would raise an error as the cleaner version.
> 
> Thanks,
> Harald
> 
> 
>>
>> Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer <https:// 
>> mail.onelink.me/107872968? 
>> pid=nativeplacement&c=US_Acquisition_YMktg_315_SearchOrgConquer_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=US_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100002039&af_sub5=C01_Email_Static_&af_ios_store_cpp=0c38e4b0-a27e-40f9-a211-f4e2de32ab91&af_android_url=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.yahoo.mobile.client.android.mail&listing=search_organize_conquer>
>>
>>     On Sun, 9 Mar 2025 at 7:32 pm, Jan Nijtmans
>>     <jan...@gm...> wrote:
>>     Op di 4 mrt 2025, 19:48 schreef Harald Oehlmann:
>>
>>         Is it an idea to remove those for 9.1 ?
>>
>>
>>     Yes, +1
>>
>>     Regards,
>>             Jan Nijtmans
>>

Re: [TCLCORE] MS-Win: remove XP dialogs?

[Harald O. <har...@el...>]

Am 09.03.2025 um 18:03 schrieb apn...@ya...:
> +1. Probably could have been done for 9.0 but better late than never.
> 
> Will use of the option be ignored or raise an error?

Thanks for the answer.
As it was never documented, I would raise an error as the cleaner version.

Thanks,
Harald


> 
> Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer <https:// 
> mail.onelink.me/107872968? 
> pid=nativeplacement&c=US_Acquisition_YMktg_315_SearchOrgConquer_EmailSignature&af_sub1=Acquisition&af_sub2=US_YMktg&af_sub3=&af_sub4=100002039&af_sub5=C01_Email_Static_&af_ios_store_cpp=0c38e4b0-a27e-40f9-a211-f4e2de32ab91&af_android_url=https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.yahoo.mobile.client.android.mail&listing=search_organize_conquer>
> 
>     On Sun, 9 Mar 2025 at 7:32 pm, Jan Nijtmans
>     <jan...@gm...> wrote:
>     Op di 4 mrt 2025, 19:48 schreef Harald Oehlmann:
> 
>         Is it an idea to remove those for 9.1 ?
> 
> 
>     Yes, +1
> 
>     Regards,
>             Jan Nijtmans
> 

[TCLCORE] What platforms do we support?

[Francois V. <fvo...@fr...>]

Hi all,

I tried to find a list of platforms we TCT officially support for Tcl/Tk 
development, but I couldn't find anything else than:

https://www.tcl-lang.org/software/tcltk/platforms.html

which I'm questioning the up-to-date status (this is an euphemism).

Where can I read about, say:

- the macOS versions range we officially support (aqua builds)

- the fact we support macOS builds with XQuartz (or also other X servers)

- the range of Windows versions we support

- the list of Linux distros we support (perhaps)

- the fact that we don't support IRIX (any more), contrary to the above link

- and so on.

Something exhaustive, you see?

And then, what is the process for deprecating support for some platform? 
I guess a TIP is needed but IMO this would be logical only if there is 
an official list of supported platforms.

I'm asking because during a discussion I had yesterday with Marc Culler, 
the question about whether it is still useful or not to support macOS 
builds with XQuartz came up. We were questioning whether this was of any 
use to anyone. The list of supported platforms would have been one 
answer to the question (but yes, not THE answer).

Thanks,

François

[TCLCORE] [ANNOUNCE] ooxml (Excel im-/export) v1.10 Tcl9 ready

[Alexander S. <a.s...@gm...>]

ooxml ECMA-376 Office Open XML File Formats

since 1.7 ooxml is Tcl9 ready


SYSNOPSIS

   Read and Write Office Open XML "XLSX" since Excel 2007

   This package contains several commands to edit Excel files. The three most important
   are the following three:

       Importing Excel files into a Tcl array with ::ooxml::xl_read,
       export Tcl data to an Excel file with ::ooxml::xl_write and
       export Tcl tablelist to an Excel file with ::ooxml::tablelist_to_xl.

   For information on how to use these commands, see the examples and the man-page
   at https://fossil.sowaswie.de/ooxml.


API extract of command list
   …
   ::ooxml::xl_sheets file
   ::ooxml::xl_read file args
   ::ooxml::xl_write args
                    method numberformat args
                    method defaultdatestyle STYLEID
                    method font args
                    method fill args
                    method border args
                    method style args
                    method worksheet name
                    method column sheet args
                    method row sheet args
                    method cell sheet {data {}} args
                    method autofilter sheet indexFrom indexTo
                    method freeze sheet index
                    method printarea sheet indexFrom indexTo
                    method method merge sheet indexFrom indexTo
                    method presetstyles
                    method presetsheets
                    method method view args
                    method processPageMarigns defaults options
                    method pageMargins sheet args
                    method pageSetup sheet args
                    method write filename
   ::ooxml::tablelist_to_xl lb args
   …

DOWNLOAD

   https://fossil.sowaswie.de/ooxml/uv/download.html


DEPENDENCIES

   Tcl >= 8.6.7
   for reading: tcllib module zipfile::decode or tclvfs module vfs::zip >= 1.4.2 (recommended, zipfs is used from Tcl 9)
   tdom >= 0.9.0


GETTING THE CODE

   The development repository is hosted at https://fossil.sowaswie.de/ooxml
   You are encouraged to use trunk.


INSTALLING

   Simply extract the download ooxml-<version>.zip into your Tcl library path.

   Since ooxml is TEA-compatible you should be able to do

       ../configure
       make test
       make install


REPORTING BUGS

   Please head to https://fossil.sowaswie.de/ooxml/ticket and
   click on "New Ticket". Log in as anonymous and report your findings.
   If you prefer to have an individual login write Alex a mail.

Re: [TCLCORE] MS-Win: remove XP dialogs?

[<apn...@ya...>]

+1. Probably could have been done for 9.0 but better late than never. 
Will use of the option be ignored or raise an error? 

Yahoo Mail: Search, organise, conquer 
 
  On Sun, 9 Mar 2025 at 7:32 pm, Jan Nijtmans<jan...@gm...> wrote:   Op di 4 mrt 2025, 19:48 schreef Harald Oehlmann:
Is it an idea to remove those for 9.1 ?


Yes, +1
Regards,       Jan Nijtmans

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