Re: [TCLCORE] Unicode in Tcl 9 - a commentary and critique

[Steve L. <st...@di...>]

But all of the TCT members stayed completely away from this - why isthis?With respect Rolf, I have been trying to moderate the discussion both on TCLCORE and on tkchat as best as I can.  The fact that people whose opinions I value have been in apparent conflict has concerned me greatly and I wouldn't be surprised if other TCT members felt the same.Also, those of us on tkchat have been aware that Ashok has been working on his document for some time.  Now that it is here we are in a better position to understand the nuances of the arguments. Perhaps the time has come for a "face to face" discussion on the outstanding issues. I realise that may be less than ideal for those less comfortable with spoken English but at least it might enable all interested parties to try and make progress towards a consensus as to the way forward. If this is something that you, Jan, Ashok, Nathan, Harald and others support then we could schedule a meeting at a suitable time using the Zoom channel.  If we go down this path I would encourage all TCT members to be present if possible.At 8:37 am on 30 Jan 2023, Rolf Ade <tcl...@po...> wrote:"Kevin Walzer" <kw-...@pu...> writes:On 1/28/23 12:02 PM, Francois Vogel wrote:Le 28/01/2023 à 09:26, apnmbx-public--- via Tcl-Core a écrit :If you, and through their silence, the TCT have pretty much decided...I have now read several calls on the mailing list for more TCTmembers to enter this discussion. Taking this for myself, I wantedto precise that my silence (on any topic, BTW) does not meananything special, especially neither approval nor disapproval.Specifically regarding the topic under discussion, I'm in no wayproficient in the encoding matter currently discussed and I refrainfrom adding noise to the already complicated exchanges. I leavethose who know so much more and better than me make the bestdecisions, enlightened by the entire community. Ashok made a greateffort in his summary document, I hope this will be considered andwill help moving forward.I would echo everything Francois says here. I have mostly been silenton these questions because they do not fall within my expertise.I only partly buy into this argument. Most, if not all, discussionsabout this stuff in the last 10 or so weeks are not about details ofimplementation (which indeed should have its place in tickets) but howthings work and how they should work from a much higher level.To explain better what I mean let me take as example the Tcl 9 scriptlevel behaviour of the read and gets commands. Several times I tried toraise this on tcl-core and Ashok also discuss this in his paper.After some repetition by me this topic in fact got attention (and in themeantime even two branches with implementations of alternatives byNathan).But all of the TCT members stayed completely away from this - why isthis? Again, this is not about implementation detail or if this bytesequence read from a channel with this encoding should result in thatbyte sequence if written out to a channel with that encoding. It is aboutthe semantic of important and familiar commands. I assume you have anoption about that?Even in cases the "do not fall within my expertise" argument may havesome weight there is another level on which I miss presence and activityof the TCT members - let's name it moderation. Despite the details ittypically is clearly shows if there is fundamental disagreement.At that point someone other should try to help sorting things out. If a "nobody" like me has a discussion with a TCT member this is adiscussion between unequals (to avoid words like "uphill battle", wehopefully don't have battles and fights but try to find bettersolutions). We lately had a daunting example.Another thought: We are close to have a first 9.0 beta. Tcl 9.0 has alonger history with several major contributors but it is obviously truethan Jan has put tremendous work into it within the last year to pushit forward to that "we're close to beta" state. But this make him perhaps not the best one to judge about the issuesof the 9.0 changes raised by the early adaptors - here your option andexperience is called, TCT members.Raising discussion about obviously problematic parts prior to betarelease should be welcome. Unfortunately it feels more like Sisyphusrolling its stone.rolf_______________________________________________Tcl-Core mailing lis...@li...://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tcl-core