syllable-developer

[Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Turki Al-M. <tur...@gm...>]

Hi all,

I've arranged a white paper about Syllable installation system:
http://www.geocities.com/tigenius/SIS.html

Please read it thoroughly and reply.

Criticism is more than welcome, because we want to get it right from
the first shot ;)

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Vandervliet, K. <Kri...@an...>]

Turki Al-Marri wrote:
> I've arranged a white paper about Syllable installation system:
> http://www.geocities.com/tigenius/SIS.html
>=20
> Please read it thoroughly and reply.
>=20
> Criticism is more than welcome, because we want to get it=20
> right from the first shot ;)

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm and your energy is great,
but you're making a fundemental error: You've assumed Syllable needs
some form of complex package management system.  You're coming at
Syllable from a Linux viewpoint, so your assumption here makes some
sort of sense, but it is misguided.

Applications should not be complex enough to ever require the type
of package management you propose.  Package managers do not belong
on Syllable, because Syllable does not need them.

You also make some technical errors:

o Any installation system that automatically ran a shell script as
  the root user is a huge security hole: there is nothing to stop
  a malicious developer including "rm -rf /" or something equally
  henious in a script.
o ZIP is used on Syllable for a very specific reason.  As far as I
  am aware, 7zip would be unsuitable for general use on Syllable
  because it can not store attribute data.

BUT! it isn't all bad.  Your "description" file may have some merit,
in a different role.  An *optional* description file inside a package,
which could be easily read and parsed before the package is installed
could have some uses E.g. if we had an online repository for software
it would be possible to extract and display the description
information of any package that was uploaded (Aminet for Syllable!)

--=20
Vanders
http://www.syllable.org
http://www.liqwyd.com=20
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
This message is for the designated recipient only and may
contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20
If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
this email is prohibited.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
[mf2]

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Turki Al-M. <tur...@gm...>]

On 9/18/06, Vandervliet, Kristian <Kri...@an...> wrote:
> Turki Al-Marri wrote:
> > I've arranged a white paper about Syllable installation system:
> > http://www.geocities.com/tigenius/SIS.html
> >
> > Please read it thoroughly and reply.
> >
> > Criticism is more than welcome, because we want to get it
> > right from the first shot ;)
>
> I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm and your energy is great,
> but you're making a fundemental error: You've assumed Syllable needs
> some form of complex package management system.  You're coming at
> Syllable from a Linux viewpoint, so your assumption here makes some
> sort of sense, but it is misguided.

I posted it for a reason, to see what the other developers are
thinking. So this is not considered damping enthusiasm, it's
considered sharing ideas. I'm okay :)

And the only assumption I made is that the average user expect a
double-click-and-go type installation, so it make sense if the user
just downloaded the package and run it.

> Applications should not be complex enough to ever require the type
> of package management you propose.  Package managers do not belong
> on Syllable, because Syllable does not need them.

It's not made because of complex applications, it's made to have a
unified method of adding and more importantly removing applications.
For example an e-mail client may want to add an applet to check for
emails every x minutes at start up, what do you think would happen if
the user removed it with the current methods? The user will have to
dig in the scripts to remove the annoying error message caused by the
missing application.

>
> You also make some technical errors:
>
> o Any installation system that automatically ran a shell script as
>   the root user is a huge security hole: there is nothing to stop
>   a malicious developer including "rm -rf /" or something equally
>   henious in a script.

That's so true. Maybe we should a user that have access to the
necessary folders only, but when installing a driver root is
necessary.

By the way, there is no system I know that don't have this security
hole. Even *nix.

> o ZIP is used on Syllable for a very specific reason.  As far as I
>   am aware, 7zip would be unsuitable for general use on Syllable
>   because it can not store attribute data.

I wanted to use a format that I'm sure that it is 100% patent free.
But if zip is patent free then there is no reason not to use it.

> BUT! it isn't all bad.  Your "description" file may have some merit,
> in a different role.  An *optional* description file inside a package,
> which could be easily read and parsed before the package is installed
> could have some uses E.g. if we had an online repository for software
> it would be possible to extract and display the description
> information of any package that was uploaded (Aminet for Syllable!)
>
> --
> Vanders
> http://www.syllable.org
> http://www.liqwyd.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may
> contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information.
> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
> immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
> this email is prohibited.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [mf2]
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Syllable-developer mailing list
> Syl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/syllable-developer
>

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Vandervliet, K. <Kri...@an...>]

Turki Al-Marri wrote:
> On 9/18/06, Vandervliet, Kristian wrote:
>> Turki Al-Marri wrote:
>>> I've arranged a white paper about Syllable installation system:
>>> http://www.geocities.com/tigenius/SIS.html
>>>
>>> Please read it thoroughly and reply.
>>>
>>> Criticism is more than welcome, because we want to get it
>>> right from the first shot ;)
>>
>> I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm and your energy is great,
>> but you're making a fundemental error: You've assumed Syllable needs
>> some form of complex package management system.  You're coming at
>> Syllable from a Linux viewpoint, so your assumption here makes some
>> sort of sense, but it is misguided.
>
> I posted it for a reason, to see what the other developers are
> thinking. So this is not considered damping enthusiasm, it's
> considered sharing ideas. I'm okay :)
>=20
> And the only assumption I made is that the average user expect a
> double-click-and-go type installation, so it make sense if the user
> just downloaded the package and run it.

Equally, a user could just drag the ZIP file to /Application and unzip
it,
which is the preferred method.  The advantage here is that the user
know *exactly* what they did, and there are nothing happening that the
user can not see.
=20
>> Applications should not be complex enough to ever require the type
>> of package management you propose.  Package managers do not belong
>> on Syllable, because Syllable does not need them.
>=20
> It's not made because of complex applications, it's made to have a
> unified method of adding and more importantly removing applications.

The problem is that the very existence of a package manager adds
complexity.  It may be acceptable if your existing software installtion
scheme is already so complex that a package manager improves matters
(See: UNIX) but on a system like Syllable there is little benefit.
See also: MacOS, OS X, BeOS

> For example an e-mail client may want to add an applet to check for
> emails every x minutes at start up, what do you think would happen if
> the user removed it with the current methods? The user will have to
> dig in the scripts to remove the annoying error message caused by the
> missing application.

I'd expect such an applet to be inteligent enough to work out for itself
that it's "Parent" application is missing and it would *disable itself*
from running in the future, and exit, silently.

=20
>> You also make some technical errors:
>>
>> o Any installation system that automatically ran a shell script as
>>   the root user is a huge security hole: there is nothing to stop
>>   a malicious developer including "rm -rf /" or something equally
>>   henious in a script.
>=20
> That's so true. Maybe we should a user that have access to the
> necessary folders only, but when installing a driver root is
> necessary.
>=20
> By the way, there is no system I know that don't have this security
> hole. Even *nix.

Yes this is true.  This is one good reason to try and avoid
duplicating the problem on Syllable :)

>> o ZIP is used on Syllable for a very specific reason.  As far as I
>>   am aware, 7zip would be unsuitable for general use on Syllable
>>   because it can not store attribute data.
>=20
> I wanted to use a format that I'm sure that it is 100% patent free.
> But if zip is patent free then there is no reason not to use it.

I am not aware of any patent issues surrounding ZIP  If there were
patent issues we would still need to find a suitable replacement
that can store attribute data inside the archive.
=20
--=20
Vanders
http://www.syllable.org
http://www.liqwyd.com=20
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
This message is for the designated recipient only and may
contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20
If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
this email is prohibited.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
[mf2]

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Turki Al-M. <tur...@gm...>]

On 9/18/06, Vandervliet, Kristian <Kri...@an...> wrote:
> Turki Al-Marri wrote:
> > On 9/18/06, Vandervliet, Kristian wrote:
> >> Turki Al-Marri wrote:
> >>> I've arranged a white paper about Syllable installation system:
> >>> http://www.geocities.com/tigenius/SIS.html
> >>>
> >>> Please read it thoroughly and reply.
> >>>
> >>> Criticism is more than welcome, because we want to get it
> >>> right from the first shot ;)
> >>
> >> I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm and your energy is great,
> >> but you're making a fundemental error: You've assumed Syllable needs
> >> some form of complex package management system.  You're coming at
> >> Syllable from a Linux viewpoint, so your assumption here makes some
> >> sort of sense, but it is misguided.
> >
> > I posted it for a reason, to see what the other developers are
> > thinking. So this is not considered damping enthusiasm, it's
> > considered sharing ideas. I'm okay :)
> >
> > And the only assumption I made is that the average user expect a
> > double-click-and-go type installation, so it make sense if the user
> > just downloaded the package and run it.
>
> Equally, a user could just drag the ZIP file to /Application and unzip
> it,
> which is the preferred method.  The advantage here is that the user
> know *exactly* what they did, and there are nothing happening that the
> user can not see.

Most programs I ran into required more than that, so pardon my ignorance.

>
> >> Applications should not be complex enough to ever require the type
> >> of package management you propose.  Package managers do not belong
> >> on Syllable, because Syllable does not need them.
> >
> > It's not made because of complex applications, it's made to have a
> > unified method of adding and more importantly removing applications.
>
> The problem is that the very existence of a package manager adds
> complexity.  It may be acceptable if your existing software installtion
> scheme is already so complex that a package manager improves matters
> (See: UNIX) but on a system like Syllable there is little benefit.
> See also: MacOS, OS X, BeOS

So are we going to have something like packages in Mac OS, that would
be great :). But is it commercial software friendly?

>
> > For example an e-mail client may want to add an applet to check for
> > emails every x minutes at start up, what do you think would happen if
> > the user removed it with the current methods? The user will have to
> > dig in the scripts to remove the annoying error message caused by the
> > missing application.
>
> I'd expect such an applet to be inteligent enough to work out for itself
> that it's "Parent" application is missing and it would *disable itself*
> from running in the future, and exit, silently.
>
>
> >> You also make some technical errors:
> >>
> >> o Any installation system that automatically ran a shell script as
> >>   the root user is a huge security hole: there is nothing to stop
> >>   a malicious developer including "rm -rf /" or something equally
> >>   henious in a script.
> >
> > That's so true. Maybe we should a user that have access to the
> > necessary folders only, but when installing a driver root is
> > necessary.
> >
> > By the way, there is no system I know that don't have this security
> > hole. Even *nix.
>
> Yes this is true.  This is one good reason to try and avoid
> duplicating the problem on Syllable :)
>
> >> o ZIP is used on Syllable for a very specific reason.  As far as I
> >>   am aware, 7zip would be unsuitable for general use on Syllable
> >>   because it can not store attribute data.
> >
> > I wanted to use a format that I'm sure that it is 100% patent free.
> > But if zip is patent free then there is no reason not to use it.
>
> I am not aware of any patent issues surrounding ZIP  If there were
> patent issues we would still need to find a suitable replacement
> that can store attribute data inside the archive.
>
> --
> Vanders
> http://www.syllable.org
> http://www.liqwyd.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may
> contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information.
> If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
> immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
> this email is prohibited.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [mf2]
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Syllable-developer mailing list
> Syl...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/syllable-developer
>

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Brent P. N. <me...@ot...>]

On Sep 18, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Turki Al-Marri wrote:
>
> So are we going to have something like packages in Mac OS, that would
> be great :).

That's roughly what we already have, isn't it?

> But is it commercial software friendly?

Why wouldn't it be?  Plenty of commercial software is distributed  
this way on the Mac.

-- 
Brent P. Newhall
Writer.  Programmer.  Cook.  Teacher.  Creator of worlds.
http://brent.other-space.com/

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Vandervliet, K. <Kri...@an...>]

Brent P. Newhall wrote:
> On Sep 18, 2006, at 6:28 AM, Turki Al-Marri wrote:
>> So are we going to have something like packages in Mac OS,=20
>> that would be great :).
>=20
> That's roughly what we already have, isn't it?
>=20
>> But is it commercial software friendly?
>=20
> Why wouldn't it be?  Plenty of commercial software is=20
> distributed this way on the Mac.

If anything, simpler installation schemes are *more*
commercial friendly (& non-commercial friendly!)  Complex
systems such as Microsoft Installer require addtional costs
and development effort, which can be significant.

--=20
Vanders
http://www.syllable.org
http://www.liqwyd.com=20
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
This message is for the designated recipient only and may
contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20
If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
this email is prohibited.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
[mf2]

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Nathanael B. <The...@it...>]

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Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Turki Al-M. <tur...@gm...>]

Thank you all for sharing your ideas.

>Perhaps, to ease users differentiating between any old .zip and an
"installable" application >.zip, all that would be needed is a
different extension and/or MIME type, or a special file or >zip header
value that the unzipper detects and lets the user know its an app? Eg,
if the file >.installable is present, the unzip app picks up on it,
throws up a dialog saying "This ZIP file >contains an installable
Syllable application. Extract it to /Applications/[appname] now?"
>That's about as far as it need go.

This sounds like a clever idea, but I don't think it's the job of the
original unzip app. Maybe a special unzip app?

Re: [Syllable-developer] Syllable installation system white paper

[Nathan O. <nat...@gm...>]

On 9/18/06, Vandervliet, Kristian <Kri...@an...> wrote:
> I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm and your energy is great,
> but you're making a fundemental error: You've assumed Syllable needs
> some form of complex package management system.  You're coming at
> Syllable from a Linux viewpoint, so your assumption here makes some
> sort of sense, but it is misguided.

I agree that Syllable is currently handling packages well. A
semi-peripheral question comes to mind: How much room is there for
human error when upgrading (for example) the kernel, userland (ls, ps,
etc) and built in software (python, perl, bash, etc)? This software is
separate from what I'd call an App in Syllable. Users will need to
update this "System" software. Maybe this is best run through a
package manager, albeit one you don't make so available to users (see
apt, rpm, etc).

[Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[trott3r <tr...@tr...>]

Hello,


On the syllable hardware compatibility page for video cards there are alot
of cards that are supported but with little other comment on their
performance. My Geforce 6600 gt doesnt allow me to change the refresh rate
and is thus not  tolerable at the default rate on a crt monitor. I am
thinking of changig my graphics card for something else so do any of these
gfx cards in the list work particularly well or better than the others?

sorry if it doesnt format correctly in email the link is:
http://www.garycvl.f2s.com/gfxcards.html

"AGP Cards

Manufa 	Model 	Chipset 	Hardware Accel 	Refresh Rate 	DVI
NVidia 	TNT2 	NV4/NV5/NV6 	Yes 	Yes 	N/A
NVidia 	GeForce 256 	NV10 	Yes 	Yes 	N/A
NVidia 	GeForce 2 	NV11/NV15 	Yes 	Yes 	N/A
NVidia 	GeForce 3 	NV20 	Yes 	Yes 	N/A
NVidia 	GeForce 4 Ti 	NV25/NV28 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes
NVidia 	GeForce 5900 	NV35 	Yes 	Yes 	Yes
ATI 	Radeon 7000 	RV100 	Yes (Partial) 	Yes 	Yes
ATI 	Radeon 7500 	RV200 	Yes (Partial) 	Yes 	Yes
ATI 	Radeon 9600 Pro RV350 	Yes (Partial) 	Yes 	No
Matrox 	G200 	G200 	Yes 	Yes 	N/A
3DFX 	Voodoo3 Voodoo3 	No 	No 	N/A"

So recommendations from the table for syllable as well as amithlon would be
appreciated.

Thanks

Martin N

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[Arno K. <arn...@ya...>]

trott3r schrieb:
> Hello,
>
>
> On the syllable hardware compatibility page for video cards there are alot
> of cards that are supported but with little other comment on their
> performance. My Geforce 6600 gt doesnt allow me to change the refresh rate
> and is thus not  tolerable at the default rate on a crt monitor.
The geforce 6600 should work fine. Please post your kernel log 
(/var/log/kernel) so we can see what is going wrong.

Arno


		
___________________________________________________________ 
Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[trott3r <tr...@tr...>]

On 5:53:28 pm 18/09/2006 Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
> trott3r schrieb:
> >  Hello,
> >
> >
> >  On the syllable hardware compatibility page for video cards there
> >  are alot of cards that are supported but with little other comment
> >  on their performance. My Geforce 6600 gt doesnt allow me to change
> >  the refresh rate and is thus not  tolerable at the default rate on
> a crt monitor. The geforce 6600 should work fine. Please post your
> kernel log (/var/log/kernel) so we can see what is going wrong.

Its a 6600 gt just in case the gt makes a difference.

However i have decided to downgrade the gfx card for the other system as
well as syllable since i dont do much gaming and also not bothering
upgrading xp to vista so I would still like suggestions please.



Martin N

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[Arno K. <arn...@ya...>]

trott3r schrieb:
> On 5:53:28 pm 18/09/2006 Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
>   
>> trott3r schrieb:
>>     
>>>  Hello,
>>>
>>>
>>>  On the syllable hardware compatibility page for video cards there
>>>  are alot of cards that are supported but with little other comment
>>>  on their performance. My Geforce 6600 gt doesnt allow me to change
>>>  the refresh rate and is thus not  tolerable at the default rate on
>>>       
>> a crt monitor. The geforce 6600 should work fine. Please post your
>> kernel log (/var/log/kernel) so we can see what is going wrong.
>>     
>
> Its a 6600 gt just in case the gt makes a difference.
>   
The kernel log will be very useful for us because other people with the 
same card might have the same problem.

> However i have decided to downgrade the gfx card for the other system as
> well as syllable since i dont do much gaming and also not bothering
> upgrading xp to vista so I would still like suggestions please.
>   
The best supported devices in syllable are:

*Intel onboard chipsets starting from the i830
*Nvidia devices starting from the first geforce
*sis devices (there are not many non-onboard sis chipsets)

The card should also have at least 16mb video memory.

Arno



	

	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[Kristian V. D. V. <va...@li...>]

On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:02:22 +0200, Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
> trott3r schrieb:
>> On 5:53:28 pm 18/09/2006 Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
>>> trott3r schrieb:
>>>> On the syllable hardware compatibility page for video cards there
>>>> are alot of cards that are supported but with little other comment
>>>> on their performance. My Geforce 6600 gt doesnt allow me to change
>>>> the refresh rate and is thus not  tolerable at the default rate on
>>>>       
>>> a crt monitor. The geforce 6600 should work fine. Please post your
>>> kernel log (/var/log/kernel) so we can see what is going wrong.
>>
>> Its a 6600 gt just in case the gt makes a difference.
>>   
> The kernel log will be very useful for us because other people with the 
> same card might have the same problem.
> 
>> However i have decided to downgrade the gfx card for the other system as
>> well as syllable since i dont do much gaming and also not bothering
>> upgrading xp to vista so I would still like suggestions please.
>>   
> The best supported devices in syllable are:
> 
> *Intel onboard chipsets starting from the i830
> *Nvidia devices starting from the first geforce
> *sis devices (there are not many non-onboard sis chipsets)

S3 Savage cards are also well supported.
 
I currently use machines with the following cards:

Intel i845
Intel i945
Matrox G200
Radeon 7000
S3 Savage IX

and I used a GeForce2 MX in a machine for quite some time.  Out of all
of those, the i945 (With the CVS/0.6.2 driver) & Savage IX are the best
supported.  The GeForce2 MX was also near-perfect.  The Radeon 7000
and i845 and good, but the Radeon 7000 suffers from "shimer"; possibly
poor memory-timing in the Radeon driver.  Support for the G200 is
basic, but it does work and it is accelerated, but it is the only card on
the list that does not support video overlays.

However, the log from your 6000 GT would be useful, as Arno said.

-- 
Vanders
http://www.syllable.org
http://www.liqwyd.com

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[trott3r <tr...@tr...>]

On 8:45:07 pm 18/09/2006 "Kristian Van Der Vliet" <va...@li...> wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:02:22 +0200, Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...>
>  wrote:
> >  trott3r schrieb:
> >>  On 5:53:28 pm 18/09/2006 Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
> >>>  trott3r schrieb:

snip

> >>  However i have decided to downgrade the gfx card for the other
> >>  system as well as syllable since i dont do much gaming and also
> >>  not bothering upgrading xp to vista so I would still like
> >>    suggestions please.
> >  The best supported devices in syllable are:
> >
> >  *Intel onboard chipsets starting from the i830
> >  *Nvidia devices starting from the first geforce
> >  *sis devices (there are not many non-onboard sis chipsets)
>
> S3 Savage cards are also well supported.
>
> I currently use machines with the following cards:
>
> Intel i845
> Intel i945
> Matrox G200
> Radeon 7000
> S3 Savage IX

only the matrox g200 is in the table for amithlon supported cards.
Searching on ebay uk shows the g200 is a specialist board with only 8meg of
memory while the other responder said 16 meg preferable.

> and I used a GeForce2 MX in a machine for quite some time.

That looks better but still on ly 32meg of ram on board.

>  Out of all
> of those, the i945 (With the CVS/0.6.2 driver) & Savage IX are the
> best supported.  The GeForce2 MX was also near-perfect.  The Radeon
> 7000 and i845 and good, but the Radeon 7000 suffers from "shimer";
> possibly poor memory-timing in the Radeon driver.  Support for the
> G200 is basic, but it does work and it is accelerated, but it is the
> only card on the list that does not support video overlays.

Any newer cards that are well supported?

Thanks for geforce 2mx suggestion that has some potential apart from its
age.

Just noticed the matrox is a pci card which could mean i could use my
geforce 6600 gt AGP and the matrox PCI at the same time. Anyone else known
to have had success with this sor of setup?

Martin N

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[Vandervliet, K. <Kri...@an...>]

trott3r wrote:
> only the matrox g200 is in the table for amithlon supported cards.
> Searching on ebay uk shows the g200 is a specialist board=20
> with only 8meg of memory while the other responder said 16=20
> meg preferable.

The G200 a specialist board?  Not really, it's just an old Matrox
consumer board.  There are loads of them lying around these days.
The G400 will also work just as well on Syllable, and you can
certainly get those with more than 8MB on them (I have a G400 with
32MB, for example)
=20
>> Out of all
>> of those, the i945 (With the CVS/0.6.2 driver) & Savage IX are the=20
>> best supported.  The GeForce2 MX was also near-perfect.  The Radeon=20
>> 7000 and i845 and good, but the Radeon 7000 suffers from "shimer";=20
>> possibly poor memory-timing in the Radeon driver.  Support for the=20
>> G200 is basic, but it does work and it is accelerated, but=20
>> it is the only card on the list that does not support video overlays.
>=20
> Any newer cards that are well supported?
>
> Thanks for geforce 2mx suggestion that has some potential=20
> apart from its age.

As far as I know, all of the newer Radeon cards will also work, and
all GeForce[FX] cards should work, so you can just pick one that works
with your other OS and it should be fine.

Your 6600GT should work; as Arno said, we'd really appreciate a copy
of your kernel log (/var/log/kernel) so we can see what the problem
is and hopefully fix it.
=20
> Just noticed the matrox is a pci card which could mean i=20
> could use my geforce 6600 gt AGP and the matrox PCI at the=20
> same time. Anyone else known to have had success with this=20
> sor of setup?

It's not a normal configuration.  Personally I'd expect the PCI card
to be disabled by the BIOS, in favour of the AGP card.  Because of
the way drivers are loaded by Syllable, the GeForceFX would be used
(Probably) but I have no idea how other OSes may handle that.

--=20
Vanders
http://www.syllable.org
http://www.liqwyd.com=20
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
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contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. =20
If you have received it in error, please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original.  Any unauthorized use of
this email is prohibited.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------------
[mf2]

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[trott3r <tr...@tr...>]

On 12:28:39 pm 19/09/2006 "Vandervliet, Kristian" <Kristian.Vandervliet@a=
ndrew.com> wrote:
> trott3r wrote:
> >  only the matrox g200 is in the table for amithlon supported cards.
> >  Searching on ebay uk shows the g200 is a specialist board
> >  with only 8meg of memory while the other responder said 16
> >  meg preferable.
>
> The G200 a specialist board?  Not really, it's just an old Matrox
> consumer board.=20

seemed to be as it has multiple heads at least the ones on ebay do and th=
ey
cost alot for a pci card =C2=A340! upwards

> There are loads of them lying around these days.

if anyone does have them stick them on ebay fetch a bit in the or some
reason.

> The G400 will also work just as well on Syllable, and you can
> certainly get those with more than 8MB on them (I have a G400 with
> 32MB, for example)

okay good ; on second look on ebay its 32meg spit into 4 heads which is
8meg per display.


> >  Just noticed the matrox is a pci card which could mean i
> >  could use my geforce 6600 gt AGP and the matrox PCI at the
> >  same time. Anyone else known to have had success with this
> >  sor of setup?
>
> It's not a normal configuration.  Personally I'd expect the PCI card
> to be disabled by the BIOS, in favour of the AGP card.=20

which i can enable in bios (pci)

> Because of
> the way drivers are loaded by Syllable, the GeForceFX would be used
> (Probably) but I have no idea how other OSes may handle that.

Is there not a way a script could be written to change which interface is
used for video?

Martin N

Re: [Syllable-developer] recommended graphics cards advice

[trott3r <tr...@tr...>]

On 7:02:22 pm 18/09/2006 Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
> trott3r schrieb:
> >  On 5:53:28 pm 18/09/2006 Arno Klenke <arn...@ya...> wrote:
> >
> >>  trott3r schrieb:
> >>
> >>>   Hello,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   On the syllable hardware compatibility page for video cards
> >>>   there are alot of cards that are supported but with little
> >>>   other comment on their performance. My Geforce 6600 gt doesnt
> >>>   allow me to change the refresh rate and is thus not  tolerable
> >>>        at the default rate on
> >>  a crt monitor. The geforce 6600 should work fine. Please post your
> >>  kernel log (/var/log/kernel) so we can see what is going wrong.
> >>
> >
> >  Its a 6600 gt just in case the gt makes a difference.
> >
> The kernel log will be very useful for us because other people with
> the same card might have the same problem.

okay i will see if I can swap the hard drives over soon.

> >  However i have decided to downgrade the gfx card for the other
> >  system as well as syllable since i dont do much gaming and also
> >  not bothering upgrading xp to vista so I would still like
> >    suggestions please.
> The best supported devices in syllable are:
>
> *Intel onboard chipsets starting from the i830
> *Nvidia devices starting from the first geforce

None of the geforece cards that are better supported than the others?

How about what the driver coders use that are still in that table.

> *sis devices (there are not many non-onboard sis chipsets)
>
> The card should also have at least 16mb video memory.

Okay that should give me some idea of the age of the card that would be
preferable. Any upper limit?

thanks for your time

Martin N