sunuml-developers — StarUML developers

[Sunuml-developers] About Language

[J. C. S. <joh...@gm...>]

Hi everybody,

My name is Johann Chaves and I am new to the list.

About language, I am a Java developer, so C++ o Python is fine for me.

If you want my vote, I vote for Python.

Summary:

Python
Aidar Talibzhanov
Johann Chaves

C++
Ricardo Corona

Neutral
Steven Gay

It is what I summarized from previous mails, what do other people think?

I think we should make a decision quickly to move to requirements...

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language for the Project

[Ricardo C. <ric...@ho...>]

Hi nomiad,

Welcome to the team!

Frankly I don't see a relationship in targeting for a language independent
tool (as to its functionality) and coding in a language-independent
platform. StarUML itself is written in a propietary language (I think it was
Delphi) for the propietary Win32 platform while providing support for
different languages through profiles/plug-ins.

Although .net does support several languages, its flagship language is C#.
You really need C# for doing interesting things in .net, which sort of
limits the choice of IDEs to VisualStudio and #develop. Besides, .net is
propietary, not really open.

In previous discussions we sort of had a concensus on using wxWidgets as an
open multi-platform framework. IDE choice was left to each developer. I
think language wasn't decided yet, between Python or C++. We also had agreed
that it would be pluggable, so multilanguage support could be provided
through plugins.

Regards,
 
Ricardo
 
-----Original Message-----
From: nomIad [mailto:no...@gm...] 
Sent: Miércoles, 15 de Octubre del 2008 16:35
To: SUN UML
Subject: [Sunuml-developers] Language for the Project

Hi,

Im nomIad and new to this list.

Star UML is a language independent UML tool.
I think there will be many developers working with a bunch of languages.

This is why i suggest the .NET Technologie. But based on
http://www.mono-project.org for multiple Platform support.

SunUML will be object oriented (hopefully).

I read on the list languages like C#, C++, Phyton, Java... the .net
Technolgie will support all of those languages.
The only limitation is to keep the code seperated in dlls.

Just look at this sample:
http://www.mono-project.com/Guide:_Porting_Winforms_Applications

Ive been working with FlashDevelop since 2 years.
http://www.flashdevelop.org.
http://www.danieltome.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/flashdevelop_php01
gif

Another example an OpenSource IDE for  .net Technologie:
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

Another advantage is that the code will be system independent. .Net is
running on several processor technolgies.

With NAnt we have an optimal build tool.
With NUnit there is also a unit testing framework available.
SharpDevelop is SVN compatible.

What do you think about that?

cu nomIad


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[Sunuml-developers] Language for the Project

[nomIad <no...@gm...>]

Hi,

Im nomIad and new to this list.

Star UML is a language independent UML tool.
I think there will be many developers working with a bunch of languages.

This is why i suggest the .NET Technologie. But based on
http://www.mono-project.org for multiple Platform support.

SunUML will be object oriented (hopefully).

I read on the list languages like C#, C++, Phyton, Java... the .net
Technolgie will support all of those languages.
The only limitation is to keep the code seperated in dlls.

Just look at this sample:
http://www.mono-project.com/Guide:_Porting_Winforms_Applications

Ive been working with FlashDevelop since 2 years.
http://www.flashdevelop.org.
http://www.danieltome.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/flashdevelop_php01.gif

Another example an OpenSource IDE for  .net Technologie:
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

Another advantage is that the code will be system independent. .Net is
running on several processor technolgies.

With NAnt we have an optimal build tool.
With NUnit there is also a unit testing framework available.
SharpDevelop is SVN compatible.

What do you think about that?

cu nomIad

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Proposed SVN repository structure

[Steven G. <laz...@gm...>]

Seems ok.

1 -I added it on the wiki feel free to modify it and discuss what you don't
like here.
http://sunuml.wiki.sourceforge.net/Project+Structure


2 - I suggest one modification: adding a 'sunuml' folder at the base.
This replace the concept of cvs modules and permit us -even if we don't do
it- to add a whole new project.
Without it would be difficult to do it afterwards.

Such as an eclipse plugin which has a different code base/structure etc.


3 - I prefer 'doc' instead of 'help' because I would also put the api doc in
it.
But I don't mind.


4 - I am less sure about '3dparty'. What do you mean?
Whole softwares? In this case we most certainly can't distribute them
easily.

Or do you mean the dependencies libraries?
In this case I just got a doubt: can a folder *begin *with a number for all
platforms & languages?

Why not simply '*libs*' ?


5 - I would add a root/trunk/bin folder where the exe are put and the
dynamic libs are copied.


Steven

[Sunuml-developers] Language?

[Aidar T. <ata...@ya...>]

Apparently user documentation contains quite a few pictures of StartUML UI.
We can even get the icons from there and re-use.

http://staruml.sourceforge.net/docs/user-guide(en)



      

[Sunuml-developers] Proposed SVN repository structure

[Aidar T. <ata...@ya...>]

root
   trunk
      sunuml              - core SunUML project
      plugins              - plugins we will be developing like reverse-engineering and code generation etc.
      help                  - interactive help and documentation
      installer             - installer project
      3rdparty             - third party software we use
      build                  - build related scripts/configs etc.
      <other projects> - we will create similar directory for other projects we decide to create.
   tags                     - tags/branches for the projects above.
   branches

In that layout one checks out trunk and gets a working copy of the projects, un-needed tags and branches are not checked out.

Let me know what you think.

Regards,
Aidar aka AIDS


      

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language

[Ricardo C. <ric...@ho...>]

Hi all,

 

Haven’t got much time now to give an opinion on everything below, so I’ll
just speak up now for C++. Frankly it’s only because I don’t know Python but
have many years’ experience developing and teaching C++. I would also use
CodeBlocks/wxSmith but again, it’s only a personal preference against
Eclipse.

 

Regards,

 

Ricardo

 

  _____  

From: Steven Gay [mailto:laz...@gm...] 
Sent: Miércoles, 08 de Octubre del 2008 22:27
To: sun...@li...
Subject: Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language

 

Hey,

Those in favor of C++ should speak up or Python will win by default!


Although I think we speak to much about the language and not about 
howt to organise the work (specs, requirements, ...) I will add some
comments.




1. Language and tools
As for IDE for Python as I found out that Eclipse + PyDev make a good IDE.


I will be blunt: I don't care... what you use for tools!

The project code & folder should be organised in a way that any one of us
can use the tools he likes and is proficient with. Period.

Check my other open-source project OGE. After lots of thinking we came up
with a folder structure for our cross-platform plugin-based c++ project
which permits anyone to use the ide/c++ compiler he wants. 
http://www.opengameengine.org/wiki/index.php?title=Project_Structure

You will see that we have a /build/ folder for each project (sub libraries,
plugins, etc).
In it you can put the files you need for your ide/compiler like vc80, vc90,
cmake or whatever.
Even autotools can be used without littering the project structure with
numerous makefiles.
(The first task of the bootstrap is simply to copy in the folder the needed
makefiles 
hence the people not using autotools are not disturbed by files they don't
use).

The only constraint is that the folders names & filenames don't contain
spaces and are case-insensitive unique (preferably lowercase for the folder
names). 
This makes it very easy to setup projects.

We must use such an approach.


Of course this means that only the MINIMAL ide/compiler files must be
committed to enable several people to work with them (i.e for vc80 only
vcproj & .sln no .suo, .ncb, .user)

Personally I will try not to use the too big eclipse.
I will try to use CodeBlocks and its experimental python plugin
<http://developer.berlios.de/projects/cbilplugin/>  (cbilplugin): compile,
debugger.
And even if there is no auto-complete yet (planned for soon) I wouldn't mind
supporting it.

If it is too hard/buggy I will revert to your eclipse files :)





2. SunUML features
As It is a fork of the existing project I beleive we must remain compatible,
i.e. existing .uml files must be readable/converted.
I think our first goal should be to build a functional equivalent of
StarUML, but not a port of StarUML :)

 

BTW, has anyone looked at http://www.evolus.vn/Pencil/Home.html - it is an
interesting tool for building diagrams/prototyping UI etc.
It is Gecko based - runs in Mozilla Firefox or standalone.



We should begin with some UI prototyping so we can discuss how much we
replicate the StarUML UI. Perhaps someone can make screenshots of all
StarUML windows and put them on wiki so we can discuss them. 




The second goal is to build a superior product - here team support comes as
an example.


We should have an N-tier architecture from the start. 
This would enable us to have permissions & roles later without a major
rework.

The first version should be an application with its data tier loading/saving
from files.


T1 : Application  <-> T3 : Business/Application Logic  <->  T4 Data Access
<-> T5 :Data Storage (files or database)

Later we can implement the T2 : IIS Internet Layer and expend the T5 to use
a database.
Implementing T1 as a browser interface will be a late exercice.


It is the T3 layer I am unsure of. IMO it should be broken in two:  

*	User Layer : User rights & roles. Controling access to the Data
Layer methods 
*	Data Layer : Data manipulation, business logic, ...


The first version would have a unique role which can access all methods of
the data layer.
This would make a 6-Tier architecture :D

What do you think?

Regards,
Steven


 



 

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language

[Steven G. <laz...@gm...>]

> 1. Language and tools
>> As for IDE for Python as I found out that Eclipse + PyDev make a good IDE.
>>
>
> I will be blunt: I don't care... what you use for tools!
>


I just reread myself. Probably I must explain.
When I launched the topic it was in my mind to discuss about:

 - C++ versus Python
 - SVN / cvs
 - Doxygen
 - Unit test
 - Task manager, planning tools, TRAC, ...
 - Sub libraries:   MySQL, SQLite, ...  wxPython, QT, ...boost? Poco? only
stdlib?
 - etc

Not about IDEs & compilers which are too programer specific and shouldn't be
enforced :)

Hope you see what I mean
Steven

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language

[Steven G. <laz...@gm...>]

Hey,

Those in favor of C++ should speak up or Python will win by default!


Although I think we speak to much about the language and not about
howt to organise the work (specs, requirements, ...) I will add some
comments.



1. Language and tools
> As for IDE for Python as I found out that Eclipse + PyDev make a good IDE.


I will be blunt: I don't care... what you use for tools!

The project code & folder should be organised in a way that any one of us
can use the tools he likes and is proficient with. Period.

Check my other open-source project OGE. After lots of thinking we came up
with a folder structure for our cross-platform plugin-based c++ project
which permits anyone to use the ide/c++ compiler he wants.
http://www.opengameengine.org/wiki/index.php?title=Project_Structure

You will see that we have a */build/* folder for each project (sub
libraries, plugins, etc).
In it you can put the files you need for your ide/compiler like vc80, vc90,
cmake or whatever.
Even autotools can be used without littering the project structure with
numerous makefiles.
(The first task of the bootstrap is simply to copy in the folder the needed
makefiles
hence the people *not* using autotools are not disturbed by files they don't
use).

The only constraint is that the folders names & filenames don't contain
spaces and are case-insensitive unique (preferably lowercase for the folder
names).
This makes it very easy to setup projects.

We must use such an approach.


Of course this means that only the MINIMAL ide/compiler files must be
committed to enable several people to work with them (i.e for vc80 only
.vcproj & .sln no .suo, .ncb, .user)

Personally I will try not to use the too big eclipse.
I will try to use CodeBlocks and its experimental python
plugin<http://developer.berlios.de/projects/cbilplugin/>(cbilplugin):
compile, debugger.
And even if there is no auto-complete yet (planned for soon) I wouldn't mind
supporting it.

If it is too hard/buggy I will revert to your eclipse files :)




2. SunUML features
> As It is a fork of the existing project I beleive we must remain
> compatible, i.e. existing .uml files must be readable/converted.
> I think our first goal should be to build a functional equivalent of
>  StarUML, but not a port of StarUML :)


BTW, has anyone looked at http://www.evolus.vn/Pencil/Home.html - it is an
> interesting tool for building diagrams/prototyping UI etc.
> It is Gecko based - runs in Mozilla Firefox or standalone.



We should begin with some UI prototyping so we can discuss how much we
replicate the StarUML UI. Perhaps someone can make screenshots of all
StarUML windows and put them on wiki so we can discuss them.



The second goal is to build a superior product - here team support comes as
> an example.
>

We should have an N-tier architecture from the start.
This would enable us to have permissions & roles later without a major
rework.

The first version should be an application with its data tier loading/saving
from files.


T1 : Application  <-> T3 : Business/Application Logic  <->  T4 Data Access
<-> T5 :Data Storage (files or database)

Later we can implement the T2 : IIS Internet Layer and expend the T5 to use
a database.
Implementing T1 as a browser interface will be a late exercice.


It is the T3 layer I am unsure of. IMO it should be broken in two:

   - User Layer : User rights & roles. Controling access to the Data Layer
   methods
   - Data Layer : Data manipulation, business logic, ...


The first version would have a unique role which can access all methods of
the data layer.
This would make a 6-Tier architecture :D

What do you think?

Regards,
Steven

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language

[Aidar T. <ata...@ya...>]

Hi, 

1. Language and tools
I tend to favor Python :) but I am biased as I use it at work every day ( with a a lot of C++).
wxWidgets and wxPython both are mature stable products.
Why don't we try.
As for IDE for Python as I found out that Eclipse + PyDev make a good IDE.
You get SVN, project support, Python syntax highlighting, on-the-fly compilation ( no more identation errors!), code completion, refactroring support, debugger, unit testing. 
For UI development for wxWidgets I prefer wxFormBuilder (http://wxformbuilder.org/) and .XRC files are very good for other languages translation.
Note that current version of wxPython doesn't support Python 2.6 yet.

2. SunUML features
As It is a fork of the existing project I beleive we must remain compatible, i.e. existing .uml files must be readable/converted.
I think our first goal should be to build a functional equivalent of  StarUML, but not a port of StartUML :)
The second goal is to build a superior product - here team support comes as an example.

BTW, has anyone looked at http://www.evolus.vn/Pencil/Home.html - it is an interesting tool for building diagrams/prototyping UI etc.
It is Gecko based - runs in Mozilla Firefox or standalone.

3. Time commitment
This is a difficult question.
I should be able to spend several hours during weekends working on the project.
Maybe some time during the week.

Regards,
Aidar aka AIDS


      

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language?

[Steven G. <laz...@gm...>]

Hello all,


2008/10/8 Matthew Slane <m....@bl...>

> > IMO both C+ and Python have advantages and disadvantages
>
> I'm advocating a bit of both.  Get something up and running in python.
> For a lot of the code, python will do, this is after all a GUI based
> program that will spend most of it's time waiting for user input.  Where
> things feel sluggish, reimplement in C++ to take advantage of the speed
> that C++ offers. Eventually, maybe move the whole codebase to C++?
> Something like Mcmillan or freeze could be used to
> distribute the app where python isn't already installed?


It seems the Python first and C++ later (or when needed) is slowly gaining
momentum.


> Can you all give an estimate on the level of commitment you can provide?
> >
> This is a difficult question for me to answer.  I've got an 8 week old
> son and am a father for the first time, so I don't know how much time I
> can dedicate.


I have boys of 4 and 2 years and I try to work at home since one year.
So by experience this means you still have about one year
where you can have some free time (of course it depends on the child
character).



> A "simple copy" of StarUML or should we add features?
> > Which ones?
> I haven't checked the code any further than skimming over a source
> file.  But I'd like to ensure a good separation of UI and core, so we
> can decide on a GUI library to use for the main project, but other
> people could implement their own using a different toolkit.  Maybe look
> at using MVC patterns to acheive this (if not already used)?  We could
> really take this to the limits and develop an ajax front end ;)
>

By experience once we choose a gui it will stick for a long time :)

As we all seem to agree we will use wxWidget (either the c++ or the Pyhton
version http://www.wxpython.org/)



I don't like the default single file structure, I'd prefer a project
> directory with separate files in.


It should be possible to have both and set it via an editor option.

I see several advantages of one big file: easy to
move/deploy/backup/transfer/email .. :D

But mostly it is easier to synchronise the content in a collaborative
project.
For example if you change a class name you must first lock all files on
writing
so that nobody else can modify a file before your changes or they might be
inconsistencies.


Anyway if we plan to support collaborative work I think we should use a
database from the start. MySql ?

I would love to support the *SQLite* but it doesn't support concurrent
access (except via database-wide lock on writing) so if we use it we must
first setup a "server" to handle user modifications. But badder it doesn't
have right management so we can't simply set the rights on table at the
database level (which would be safer).

What do you think? MySQL?



The current way diagrams are drawn feels clunky to me, this is a big
> area for improvement.


We wait your suggestions on the wiki :)



> > *@Matthew *Do you want to be developer ?
> > Or do you wait we decide for Python?
> >
> I'd love to, but see above!!


Done - don't worry to much we will certainly find tasks for you :)


Steven

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language?

[Matthew S. <m....@bl...>]

Allo,
 
Firstly, I used the wrong email address last time, sorry for any 
confusion - thunderbird is set to that one as default even though I 
don't use it that much now.

Steven Gay wrote:
> Hello,
>
>
> IMO both C+ and Python have advantages and disadvantages
> but as I said in another email I don't mind trying Python.
> (I will need to relearn it ;)

I'm advocating a bit of both.  Get something up and running in python.  
For a lot of the code, python will do, this is after all a GUI based 
program that will spend most of it's time waiting for user input.  Where 
things feel sluggish, reimplement in C++ to take advantage of the speed 
that C++ offers. Eventually, maybe move the whole codebase to C++?  
Something like Mcmillan or freeze could be used to
distribute the app where python isn't already installed?

I like working in both languages, but I must have commited a big sin 
somewhere, I code mainly in VBA these days.  So both languages need a 
polish.
>
> My heart will go to the man-power we have.
> I prefer to have 1 good dedicated programmer in any language
> than several that stop after a few days.
>
> Can you all give an estimate on the level of commitment you can provide?
>
This is a difficult question for me to answer.  I've got an 8 week old 
son and am a father for the first time, so I don't know how much time I 
can dedicate.  At the moment it's not a great deal, weekends tend to be 
filled with family and friends visiting and work is hectic.  Combine 
that with sleepless nights and I'm lucky to get any downtime, let alone 
time to contribute to open source projects.  When the family/friend 
visits slow down and a few projects at work finish, I'll have more 
time.  Ironically, the main projects at work are designed so that I have 
more time to work on projects than day to day stuff and have to work 
less at the weekend/evenings.
>
> Also before we select for a language
> we should discuss what we want to achieve.
>
> A "simple copy" of StarUML or should we add features?
> Which ones?
I haven't checked the code any further than skimming over a source 
file.  But I'd like to ensure a good separation of UI and core, so we 
can decide on a GUI library to use for the main project, but other 
people could implement their own using a different toolkit.  Maybe look 
at using MVC patterns to acheive this (if not already used)?  We could 
really take this to the limits and develop an ajax front end ;)
 
 I don't like the default single file structure, I'd prefer a project 
directory with separate files in.  I don't know why, I'm just 
uncomfortable having all the diagrams lumped together in one file.
 
 The current way diagrams are drawn feels clunky to me, this is a big 
area for improvement.
>
> I updated your rights on the SF wiki & forum.
> ....and I still don't like the settings SF made - they are cumbersome :(
>
>
>
> *@Matthew *Do you want to be developer ?
> Or do you wait we decide for Python?
>
I'd love to, but see above!!  As my little one gets older and I learn 
the ropes of fatherhood.  I'm sure I'll get more time.  Until I can set 
time aside for long coding sessions, I'm sure there'll be plenty of 
small tasks that I could take on.  It's taken me 3 days to write this email!

Matt

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language?

[Steven G. <laz...@gm...>]

Hello,


IMO both C+ and Python have advantages and disadvantages
but as I said in another email I don't mind trying Python.
(I will need to relearn it ;)

My heart will go to the man-power we have.
I prefer to have 1 good dedicated programmer in any language
than several that stop after a few days.

Can you all give an estimate on the level of commitment you can provide?


Also before we select for a language
we should discuss what we want to achieve.

A "simple copy" of StarUML or should we add features?
Which ones?

I updated your rights on the SF wiki & forum.
....and I still don't like the settings SF made - they are cumbersome :(



*@Matthew *Do you want to be developer ?
Or do you wait we decide for Python?


Regards,
Steven

Re: [Sunuml-developers] Language?

[<nee...@gm...>]

Well, I wrote code with Python when I went to school because the teacher was very positive about that language. But we had our difficulties with that - among other things because (what you mentioned) the white space dependency and also the bad editors (perhaps the IDEs are improved). C++ is more ... I will say "usable".

And I can remember the problems with the installation of Python and the installation of the compiled code ...

But I can imagine to have a new try and to give Python a new chance ...

What's your opinion, Lazalong and Aids?

-reeny-




-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:13:02 +0100
> Von: Matthew Slane <m....@my...>
> An: sun...@li...
> Betreff: [Sunuml-developers] Language?

> Hi all,
> 
> Back on the StarUML forums there was some discussion of which language 
> to use for SunUML.  Now that the SunUML project is starting to take 
> shape, I thought I'd kick the discussion off here. (Apologies if I'm 
> repeating myself from those forums)
> 
> The two languages that popped up were C++ and Python. 
> 
> While I like C++ as a language, I don't feel that a pure C++ 
> implementation would benefit the project.  It has a high learning curve 
> and I think it would slow the project down.
> 
> Python is an easy language to learn and program in.  People with 
> experience with other languages should pick it up easily.  This will 
> allow us to move rapidly.  It can appear alien to some as it is white 
> space dependent, but that dependency is one of the strengths - it helps 
> in forcing a clean code style.   Python is easy to use with C/C++ and 
> parts of the code (eventually all?) could easily be moved to C++.  The 
> python disttools allow for inclusion of uncompiled and compiled C/C++ 
> modules.
> 
> However, in any language, it is easy to write code, but it is harder to 
> write good code.  Python may open the project to unexperienced 
> developers and code quality may suffer.  But that's a quality of open 
> source, the experienced developers will hopefully pick up on poor code 
> and gently guide submitter along the correct tracks.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
> challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
> prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
> world
> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
> _______________________________________________
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> Sun...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sunuml-developers

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[Sunuml-developers] Language?

[Matthew S. <m....@my...>]

Hi all,

Back on the StarUML forums there was some discussion of which language 
to use for SunUML.  Now that the SunUML project is starting to take 
shape, I thought I'd kick the discussion off here. (Apologies if I'm 
repeating myself from those forums)

The two languages that popped up were C++ and Python. 

While I like C++ as a language, I don't feel that a pure C++ 
implementation would benefit the project.  It has a high learning curve 
and I think it would slow the project down.

Python is an easy language to learn and program in.  People with 
experience with other languages should pick it up easily.  This will 
allow us to move rapidly.  It can appear alien to some as it is white 
space dependent, but that dependency is one of the strengths - it helps 
in forcing a clean code style.   Python is easy to use with C/C++ and 
parts of the code (eventually all?) could easily be moved to C++.  The 
python disttools allow for inclusion of uncompiled and compiled C/C++ 
modules.

However, in any language, it is easy to write code, but it is harder to 
write good code.  Python may open the project to unexperienced 
developers and code quality may suffer.  But that's a quality of open 
source, the experienced developers will hopefully pick up on poor code 
and gently guide submitter along the correct tracks.

Thoughts?

[Sunuml-developers] Yet another test

[Aidar T. <ata...@ya...>]

[Sunuml-developers] Test<eom>

[Aidar T. <ata...@ya...>]