Thread: [Starmap2-devteam] Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Brought to you by:
passedtime,
tracerfox
Menu
▾
▴
starmap2-devteam
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:42
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! This is something I've had on my mind for quite some time. Jim's program is by far the best of its sort that I've ever seen, but no dos app has ever aged very gracefully. The time has definitely come for a successor. The strength of Starmap is its complexity and scalability, especially the way it interlocks smaller programs, and allows for all sorts of flexibility. All the data files are flat ascii dbs, and are well commented, making manipulation by hand or script extremely easy. The problem with Starmap is that there is far far far too much data, and not enough tools to handle it within the main interface. There are no filters, no statistics. Also, once the stars are generated, turning all those stars into a galactic empire is a near superhuman task (at least in my experience, but it might just be my attention span). Also, the DOS thing is an issue, although the interface is remarkably clean and easy to use. The problems can I see with simply taking Starmap and improving it, but for Windows, are: - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach. - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time, and transferring data files is a pain. - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so. - Interface. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I haven't seen a Windows starmapping program yet that I liked for its interface. A large part of replacing Starmap would be making sure the interface stays clean and facile. - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20 Ideally, we would want to describe stars and planets more completely, but complex data and flat ascii files are poor company. I've seen a starmapping program (I forget which one now) which, while its level of detail was unmatched, had data files which were, dare I say, worse than Gliese 3.0 raw text files in their arcanity and complexity. So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits? - All these tools are open-source and freely available, and promote a modular development approach. =20 - An rpg group that was developing a new universe could all work on the project together. Being networked, you could access it from home, from work, from school, from anywhere. =20 - Mac hacks, Linux gurus, Microsoft junkies and anyone else could have equal access. - SQL servers are robust and would swallow up a universe of reasonable complexity without a burp. No more corrupted data files! I've got some preliminary brainwork residing at "http://eykd.net/open/". I call it "OpenSphere". There's a very basic data structure in MySQL and some incomplete Perl script for generating planets. I welcome anyone, especially programmers, who would be interesting in seeing this sort of thing become reality. Let me know what you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:45
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: man...@cs...=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
ey...@ya... writes:
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
<snip>
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
In recent months I've had a growing appreciation for python (and that
is saying something being previously a pretty hard-core perl
advocate). I believe that this sort of cross-platform tool would be
relatively straight forward to do as a python script... I've heard
tell that tkinter provides a "native look and feel" on windows, macs,
and unicies (though I personally think that the appearance of Tk under
linux is a bit on the ugly side), and pygame provides a slick
interface to SDL which is also available on all three, right? There's
probably a compiler which could generate self-contained binaries for
all "supported" platforms so that joe user wouldn't need to have
python and SDL installed...
The definite downside to a web app like that is that everybody in the
world is dependent on the web server being up and available to use the
program. If the internet is down, can't use it. If the admin decides
to take it down in a couple of years, can't use it. One could
distribute the server side stuff, and then anyone savvy enough to run
his/her own web server could run it locally, but...
If I was going to try and make a little RPG tool at this point, I
would probably go the python / GTK / SDL route, and screw the
cross-platform aspect...or make the GUI dual-headed and use GTK under
Linux and tkinter under MacOS/WinXX. =20
My $0.02.
Another option might be writing a C/C++ program with an FLTK GUI.
Maintaining such a program that runs on both Linux / WinXX is not
difficult (my research project is doing just that right now). I don't
think FLTK has been ported to MacOS though.
Good luck with whatever you decide...
--=20
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Matt C. Anderson email: man...@cs...
web: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~manderso
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:52
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yet another thing you might want to look over...Lemme know if I'm =
swamping you with too much info. Just trying to help in whatever way I =
can since I can't program worth crap...Heh.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: man...@cs...=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
ey...@ya... writes:
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
<snip>
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
In recent months I've had a growing appreciation for python (and that
is saying something being previously a pretty hard-core perl
advocate). I believe that this sort of cross-platform tool would be
relatively straight forward to do as a python script... I've heard
tell that tkinter provides a "native look and feel" on windows, macs,
and unicies (though I personally think that the appearance of Tk under
linux is a bit on the ugly side), and pygame provides a slick
interface to SDL which is also available on all three, right? There's
probably a compiler which could generate self-contained binaries for
all "supported" platforms so that joe user wouldn't need to have
python and SDL installed...
The definite downside to a web app like that is that everybody in the
world is dependent on the web server being up and available to use the
program. If the internet is down, can't use it. If the admin decides
to take it down in a couple of years, can't use it. One could
distribute the server side stuff, and then anyone savvy enough to run
his/her own web server could run it locally, but...
If I was going to try and make a little RPG tool at this point, I
would probably go the python / GTK / SDL route, and screw the
cross-platform aspect...or make the GUI dual-headed and use GTK under
Linux and tkinter under MacOS/WinXX. =20
My $0.02.
Another option might be writing a C/C++ program with an FLTK GUI.
Maintaining such a program that runs on both Linux / WinXX is not
difficult (my research project is doing just that right now). I don't
think FLTK has been ported to MacOS though.
Good luck with whatever you decide...
--=20
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Matt C. Anderson email: man...@cs...
web: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~manderso
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:52
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Trace Kern=20 To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool In one of my many cries for help, OF wasn't the only place I looked, it = seems I got another valuable bite. Take a look over this email and tell me what you think, as a lot of what = he's talking about is a bit over my head in technical detail. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! This is something I've had on my mind for quite some time. Jim's program is by far the best of its sort that I've ever seen, but no dos app has ever aged very gracefully. The time has definitely come for a successor. The strength of Starmap is its complexity and scalability, especially the way it interlocks smaller programs, and allows for all sorts of flexibility. All the data files are flat ascii dbs, and are well commented, making manipulation by hand or script extremely easy. The problem with Starmap is that there is far far far too much data, and not enough tools to handle it within the main interface. There are no filters, no statistics. Also, once the stars are generated, turning all those stars into a galactic empire is a near superhuman task (at least in my experience, but it might just be my attention span). Also, the DOS thing is an issue, although the interface is remarkably clean and easy to use. The problems can I see with simply taking Starmap and improving it, but for Windows, are: - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach. - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time, and transferring data files is a pain. - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so. - Interface. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I haven't seen a Windows starmapping program yet that I liked for its interface. A large part of replacing Starmap would be making sure the interface stays clean and facile. - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20 Ideally, we would want to describe stars and planets more completely, but complex data and flat ascii files are poor company. I've seen a starmapping program (I forget which one now) which, while its level of detail was unmatched, had data files which were, dare I say, worse than Gliese 3.0 raw text files in their arcanity and complexity. So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits? - All these tools are open-source and freely available, and promote a modular development approach. =20 - An rpg group that was developing a new universe could all work on the project together. Being networked, you could access it from home, from work, from school, from anywhere. =20 - Mac hacks, Linux gurus, Microsoft junkies and anyone else could have equal access. - SQL servers are robust and would swallow up a universe of reasonable complexity without a burp. No more corrupted data files! I've got some preliminary brainwork residing at "http://eykd.net/open/". I call it "OpenSphere". There's a very basic data structure in MySQL and some incomplete Perl script for generating planets. I welcome anyone, especially programmers, who would be interesting in seeing this sort of thing become reality. Let me know what you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:54
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:16 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
<snip>=20
Okay, I'll reply to both of you who replied to my origonal post in=20
one shot.
I've managed to line up a very skilled C/C++/VBasic/etc programmer=20
and started a project group and website over on SourceForge.
I've forwarded him your posts and he'll look over your suggestions,=20
and he's getting to work today. If either of you are interested in=20
helping out further, lemme know and I'll add you to the SourceForge=20
project staff list.
In any event, my roomate it bugging me to get off the computer now,=20
so I'll wrap this up. Email me at 'Tra...@to...' if you're=20
interested in helping this project further.
Later all!
PS. RE: Logicrucible
I wouldn't mind getting my hands on Terralogicus too. If the company=20
is out of business, I remember a clause in Software COpyright law=20
stating that you *can* give out *free* copies of a program.
Up to you, but if yer willing to make a copy of it, I wouldn't mind=20
checking out that program...What's it like offhand?
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:57
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Tutty=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Assuming that this conversation will eventually move to the SourceForge=20
project but while we're here...
From: <ey...@ya...>
> - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm
> going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact
> within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen
> it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that
> Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach.
>=20
It's not too bad. I've built a number of systems that have to interact.
In general these are wrappers for command-line research tools. You
can still use the old text file read/write techniques that used to work=20
under DOS, although I have had problems with this in a network-based
shared-file setting.
A technique that requires more programming skill, but which is very
powerful is to build your components as OCX's. Your interface can
then be built using any RAD tool. Of course I don't think this ports
too well, although the design requirements for OCX implementation
produce code which is modular and has a clearly defined interface
so it should be easy to re-package using whatever modular system
is appropriate for Mac and unix.
> - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to
> work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time,
> and transferring data files is a pain.
>=20
The degree of this problem depends on the purpose the tool is being
designed for. If it's to build a campaign universe then this doesn't=20
seem to be a problem. If you want to publish that universe for others
to use then the data size is an issue, if you want to allow co-operative
development then you need a tool designed for multiple authors and
that's not a trivial exercise.
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
>=20
Agreed. I've been looking at alternatives for a couple of programs
I want to write and it's a difficult question. =20
I think the most valuable shared project we could embark on is to=20
define a development environment that will produce cross-platform
applications. If we can find a set of tools that support this then=20
every project that want's to make it's application widely available
has a running start.
> - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and
> while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly
> directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively
> simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20
>=20
At a certain level of complexity a database become useful. This
has portability issues, but tools like MySQL are widely available=20
and should serve as a lowest common denominator.
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
>=20
Hmm. This doesn't seem suited to real-time 3D exploration of the
data, but I agree with the principles.
Chris Tutty
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:36:58
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 6:31 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
--- Chris Tutty <Chr...@or...> wrote:
> Hmm. This doesn't seem suited to real-time 3D exploration of the
> data, but I agree with the principles.
One of the problems with my argument is that I write better with
words then I do with code. :) I taught myself Perl so that I could
pre-process some of Starmap's data files, and when I got the idea for
OpenSphere, I learned MySQL to figure out the db structure. I'm
basing my opinions off of that and general coding knowledge gleaned
from years of hobbyism and CS roommates. So...
Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up a
SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
simply charge forward. Let's talk.
-David
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
"Indeed you are yourself the only riddle. What you call=20
riddles are truths, and seem riddles because you are not=20
true... They will go on asking themselves until you=20
understand yourself. The universe is a riddle trying to get=20
out, and you are holding your door hard against it."
- from "Lilith," by George MacDonald.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:05
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 To: Trace Kern=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool Well, I agree with some of that- these are the main places I think I = disagree: =20 I think I already mentioned my concern about going multi-platform- I'd = rather solve one or two problems at once, then add to the complexity = once I understand the "domain" or "problem space" better. =20 Coordinating processes (or apps, if you prefer) on Windows isn't all = that hard- you do have to understand multitasking, inter-process = communication and synchronization issues, but they teach that sort of = thing these days- heck they did in the 70's when I was in college... =20 =20 Flat text files are very simple to work with- they're also very simple = to screw up and crash your program. Techies love them- real people who = just want to play a game once in a while don't. There are plenty of = ways to make visually appealing editors for this info, and to store it = in less space. There are also plenty of ways to "modularize" the = program to keep the interface clean. Besides, I'm a professional- an = interface that isn't clean and elegant isn't something I want my name = on, anyway. =20 Along the same lines, I agree that you want people to be able to link in = pieces from other maps, etc. But there are ways to do all of that, even = without text files (or even with them, you just have to understand what = the OS can actually do for you). =20 As far as the structure and design of the software, I should look more = closely before I say something too rash, but so far, I think it's a = specious claim- the code's structured the way it is because of the = limitations of QBasic and DOS, not because it's such a great thing. = It's good solid work, mind you- it's just not groundbreaking in any way. = Of course, I probably spend most of my time dealing with well-written = stuff, and this person may spend a lot of their time with the kind of = stuff you get out of "beginners". (But I was a beginner once too- every = experienced programmer knows the feeling of going back and looking at = something they wrote, and thinking- "was I really that awful?") =20 My last comment is that what he's talking about at the end is a = distributed RPG played over the web. That certainly isn't what this is = at the moment, and I'm not quite ready to go there (that might be a good = place to change programmers or seek to add new ones). =20 For now, I'd like to start by doing essentially a straight "port" of the = existing program. The GUI may not be stellar (no pun intended), and the = features may not have changed, but once I've done that, I'll have a = better feel for how it all REALLY works. At that point, I can talk = about how to break down the design so it's easier to add features, = figure out how to implement more of the features you mention, etc. = Windows has support for technologies (COM/ActiveX/etc) that we can build = into this pretty easily, and they let you do things like add features to = the existing program without screwing it all up. In fact, one reason I = chose C++ is that the language itself has features supporting this kind = of thing. =20 BTW, another option for going multiplayer on the web and using "ASCII = files" is a technology (an internet standard) called SOAP. I've used = toolkits from Microsoft that support it, and (this is more common with = them than you might think) they're free- probably in part because it's a = key part of their .NET (Microsoft monopolizes the web) strategy. We can = do SOAP with Windows-based servers easily enough, and the neat thing is = that it's "clean" enough that you can also make it work on the other = platforms (there are some SF projects already related to all of that). ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Trace Kern=20 To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool In one of my many cries for help, OF wasn't the only place I looked, = it seems I got another valuable bite. Take a look over this email and tell me what you think, as a lot of = what he's talking about is a bit over my head in technical detail. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 1:44 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Anyone wanna help me give a very promising game-system independant=20 > Sci-Fi RPG-maker tool a facelift for the new millenium? Heh! This is something I've had on my mind for quite some time. Jim's program is by far the best of its sort that I've ever seen, but no dos app has ever aged very gracefully. The time has definitely come for a successor. The strength of Starmap is its complexity and scalability, especially the way it interlocks smaller programs, and allows for all sorts of flexibility. All the data files are flat ascii dbs, and are well commented, making manipulation by hand or script extremely easy. The problem with Starmap is that there is far far far too much data, and not enough tools to handle it within the main interface. There are no filters, no statistics. Also, once the stars are generated, turning all those stars into a galactic empire is a near superhuman task (at least in my experience, but it might just be my attention span). Also, the DOS thing is an issue, although the interface is remarkably clean and easy to use. The problems can I see with simply taking Starmap and improving it, but for Windows, are: - Environment. I'm speaking outside of my expertise here, but I'm going to assume that it's hard to make separate programs interact within the windows environment, mainly because I've never really seen it happen outside of Microsoft apps. Yet I already have argued that Starmap's strength is its open, sum-of-the-parts approach. - Centralization. One reason why all starmapping programs are hard to work with is that only one person can work on the universe at a time, and transferring data files is a pain. - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for Windows apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so. - Interface. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I haven't seen a Windows starmapping program yet that I liked for its interface. A large part of replacing Starmap would be making sure the interface stays clean and facile. - Complexity. Starmap used flat ascii files to store its data, and while this was easy to edit, it resulted in a /very/ unwieldly directory structure. Also, Starmap's data files were relatively simple-- essentially coordinates and a few other vital statistics.=20 Ideally, we would want to describe stars and planets more completely, but complex data and flat ascii files are poor company. I've seen a starmapping program (I forget which one now) which, while its level of detail was unmatched, had data files which were, dare I say, worse than Gliese 3.0 raw text files in their arcanity and complexity. So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at its heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits? - All these tools are open-source and freely available, and promote a modular development approach. =20 - An rpg group that was developing a new universe could all work on the project together. Being networked, you could access it from home, from work, from school, from anywhere. =20 - Mac hacks, Linux gurus, Microsoft junkies and anyone else could have equal access. - SQL servers are robust and would swallow up a universe of reasonable complexity without a burp. No more corrupted data files! I've got some preliminary brainwork residing at "http://eykd.net/open/". I call it "OpenSphere". There's a very basic data structure in MySQL and some incomplete Perl script for generating planets. I welcome anyone, especially programmers, who would be interesting in seeing this sort of thing become reality. Let me know what you think. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:07
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Tutty=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
From: "David" <ey...@ya...>
> Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up a
> SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
> simply charge forward. Let's talk.
>=20
Trace has (I think it's his). Search SourceForge for StarMap. Of
course the first question is whether the project should be called
OpenSphere but I'll leave that for you and Trace to work out. I
guess retaining the StarMap name is valid as long as it's a straight
port. Even if you want to keep your system separate I think we
can benefit from some shared thinking at this stage. That project=20
has a mailing list so we should be able to kick around the=20
nitty-gritty of the technical details there. Especially since I'm only=20
interested in the cross-platform aspects of the development for
a larger campaign management tool I've been designing for a
million years - too busy to contribute programming time.
I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
users.
Chris Tutty
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:10
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20
To: Trace Kern=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
No problem. Part of the problem here may be that I'm an OS guy at =
heart, so I like to program "down to the metal". I've used scripting =
languages- IBM used to have one on their manframes called REXX that I =
used for all kinds of cool stuff. But take the time to do the same job =
in C++ and the whole thing flies, speedwise.
=20
Anyway, I think I'd still like to focus for now on a stright pure =
Windows port of the thing. I don't need toolkits or such until we get =
into some of your more challenging features (I'm sure I'll be looking at =
the engines in some of the other projects when it's time to get the =
better terrain, for instance), and even then, I may want to "roll my =
own". I'm not a big subscriber to the "re-inventing the wheel" =
argument- but I think I'll save it for another time. I want to get back =
to coding...
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: Robert Brix Kjelgaard=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:12 PM
Subject: Fw: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yet another thing you might want to look over...Lemme know if I'm =
swamping you with too much info. Just trying to help in whatever way I =
can since I can't program worth crap...Heh.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: man...@cs...=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:11 PM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
ey...@ya... writes:
> - Platform. I happen to use Linux for my desktop, and I know many
> people who use Macs. While there are compatibility layers for =
Windows
> apps, they are usually a pain. Dual-boots even more so.
<snip>
> So what is my solution? I think that the ideal Starmap would, at =
its
> heart, be an SQL database with a Perl/CGI or PHP web interface and
> perhaps even a multi-platform client. The benefits?
In recent months I've had a growing appreciation for python (and that
is saying something being previously a pretty hard-core perl
advocate). I believe that this sort of cross-platform tool would be
relatively straight forward to do as a python script... I've heard
tell that tkinter provides a "native look and feel" on windows, macs,
and unicies (though I personally think that the appearance of Tk under
linux is a bit on the ugly side), and pygame provides a slick
interface to SDL which is also available on all three, right? There's
probably a compiler which could generate self-contained binaries for
all "supported" platforms so that joe user wouldn't need to have
python and SDL installed...
The definite downside to a web app like that is that everybody in the
world is dependent on the web server being up and available to use the
program. If the internet is down, can't use it. If the admin decides
to take it down in a couple of years, can't use it. One could
distribute the server side stuff, and then anyone savvy enough to run
his/her own web server could run it locally, but...
If I was going to try and make a little RPG tool at this point, I
would probably go the python / GTK / SDL route, and screw the
cross-platform aspect...or make the GUI dual-headed and use GTK under
Linux and tkinter under MacOS/WinXX. =20
My $0.02.
Another option might be writing a C/C++ program with an FLTK GUI.
Maintaining such a program that runs on both Linux / WinXX is not
difficult (my research project is doing just that right now). I don't
think FLTK has been ported to MacOS though.
Good luck with whatever you decide...
--=20
=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Matt C. Anderson email: man...@cs...
web: http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~manderso
=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:37:15
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yes, I created the StarMap2 project on SourceForge, and I've allready =
got a programmer working on it. We're concentrating first on just doing =
a Windows port of the origonal StarMap, and from there he'll have a =
better understanding of how the package works under the new format.
Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to =
adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or =
cross-platform.
Keep in mind that because I'm working through SourceForge, everything my =
project ends up with will be open source (not that I'd make this tool =
commercial anyways), so if you don't like the final spin I end up with, =
you are more than welcome to take the code and make yer own version.
For now why don't ya sign up to the StarMap2 mailing list and toss out =
yer ideas. In particular Chris, I'd like to hear about your campaign =
management tool you said you were thinking about? Since essentially =
that's one of the major reasons for my starting StarMap 2.
Finally, as for the name. I allready got permission from Jim, the =
origonal author of StarMap, to use both the source and name of StarMap =
for the 2.00 project. But I'd like to hear more about your OpenSphere =
project?
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Chris Tutty=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
From: "David" <ey...@ya...>
> Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up a
> SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
> simply charge forward. Let's talk.
>=20
Trace has (I think it's his). Search SourceForge for StarMap. Of
course the first question is whether the project should be called
OpenSphere but I'll leave that for you and Trace to work out. I
guess retaining the StarMap name is valid as long as it's a straight
port. Even if you want to keep your system separate I think we
can benefit from some shared thinking at this stage. That project=20
has a mailing list so we should be able to kick around the=20
nitty-gritty of the technical details there. Especially since I'm =
only=20
interested in the cross-platform aspects of the development for
a larger campaign management tool I've been designing for a
million years - too busy to contribute programming time.
I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
users.
Chris Tutty
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:03
|
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Trace Kern=20
To: rpg...@ya...=20
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:59 AM
Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool
Yes, I created the StarMap2 project on SourceForge, and I've allready=20
got a programmer working on it. We're concentrating first on just=20
doing a Windows port of the origonal StarMap, and from there he'll=20
have a better understanding of how the package works under the new=20
format.
Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to=20
adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or cross-
platform.
Keep in mind that because I'm working through SourceForge, everything=20
my project ends up with will be open source (not that I'd make this=20
tool commercial anyways), so if you don't like the final spin I end=20
up with, you are more than welcome to take the code and make yer own=20
version.
For now why don't ya sign up to the StarMap2 mailing list and toss=20
out yer ideas. In particular Chris, I'd like to hear about your=20
campaign management tool you said you were thinking about? Since=20
essentially that's one of the major reasons for my starting StarMap 2.
Finally, as for the name. I allready got permission from Jim, the=20
origonal author of StarMap, to use both the source and name of=20
StarMap for the 2.00 project. But I'd like to hear more about your=20
OpenSphere project?
--- In rpg-tools@y..., "Chris Tutty" <Chris.Tutty.egroups@o...> wrote:
> From: "David" <eykd@y...>
> > Please, let's discuss a better way of doing it. I haven't set up=20
a
> > SF project yet, as I realized that I didn't know enough myself to
> > simply charge forward. Let's talk.
> >=20
> Trace has (I think it's his). Search SourceForge for StarMap. Of
> course the first question is whether the project should be called
> OpenSphere but I'll leave that for you and Trace to work out. I
> guess retaining the StarMap name is valid as long as it's a straight
> port. Even if you want to keep your system separate I think we
> can benefit from some shared thinking at this stage. That project=20
> has a mailing list so we should be able to kick around the=20
> nitty-gritty of the technical details there. Especially since I'm=20
only=20
> interested in the cross-platform aspects of the development for
> a larger campaign management tool I've been designing for a
> million years - too busy to contribute programming time.
>=20
> I'd still suggest that any questions about what it should do should
> be raised here or world-create to canvas a wide group of potential
> users.
>=20
> Chris Tutty
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20
ADVERTISEMENT
=20
=20
=20
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
rpg...@eg...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20
|
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:05
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: ey...@ya...=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool First off, didn't mean to ignore your posts, Trace. I seem to only be getting half the posts by email, so I'll start checking the group itself now. --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to=20 > adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or cross- > platform. This sounds good. How long is this port going to take? > Keep in mind that because I'm working through SourceForge, everything=20 > my project ends up with will be open source (not that I'd make this=20 > tool commercial anyways), so if you don't like the final spin I end=20 > up with, you are more than welcome to take the code and make yer own=20 > version. This is great-- I really believe that Open Source is the way to go, especially with small, limited userbase projects like this. And my hope is that we can all work together to get it right-- I'm with you guys all the way. =20 I'm signed on the list now. The question, I suppose, is how much of this conversation should we maintain on rpg-tools, and how much should we carry over there? > Finally, as for the name. I allready got permission from Jim, the=20 > origonal author of StarMap, to use both the source and name of=20 > StarMap for the 2.00 project. But I'd like to hear more about your=20 > OpenSphere project? StarMap is great-- the name is a lot less important than the product. We can always talk about it some more once we move on beyond the initial port. OpenSphere (http://eykd.net/open/) is pretty much just some notes and a few pages of Perl, all of which I'll be happy to contribute. OpenSphere, as I've envisioned it, is less of a stand-alone application, and more of a network-based universe creation/campaign management tool, I suppose. But the idea is muddy, and subject to change a lot as I learn more about what is possible (or impossible). I'll start brainstorming ideas for feature requests. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
|
From: Trace K. <Tra...@ne...> - 2001-10-15 00:39:09
|
----- Original Message -----=20 From: Trace Kern=20 To: rpg...@ya...=20 Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: [rpg-tools] Re: Makeover for an old tool --- In rpg-tools@y..., eykd@y... wrote: > First off, didn't mean to ignore your posts, Trace. I seem to only=20 be > getting half the posts by email, so I'll start checking the group > itself now. I'm a bit behind too on group vs email posts..Ohwell... > --- In rpg-tools@y..., "Trace Kern" <TraceFox@t...> wrote: > > Once that's doen, he says in a day or two, we can move on to=20 > > adding/upgrading features and other issues such as web-apps or=20 cross- > > platform. >=20 > This sounds good. How long is this port going to take? Well Robert, my developer on the project, said he should have a=20 straight port of StarMap's features into VBasic in a day or two. We'll use that as a jumping off point. >=20 > This is great-- I really believe that Open Source is the way to go, > especially with small, limited userbase projects like this. And my > hope is that we can all work together to get it right-- I'm with you > guys all the way. =20 Well even though it seems StarMap 2 might fill a void noone knew was=20 there, I still don't think I'm up for, or it's worth it,=20 commercialization. So it's Open Source and free. > I'm signed on the list now. The question, I suppose, is how much of > this conversation should we maintain on rpg-tools, and how much=20 should > we carry over there? Well, because Robert isn't on this group, I'd suggest that we do most=20 of the discussion over on the project list. Or at the least any=20 relevant discussion be forwarded to the project list. Anyone who wants to actively contribute to StarMap 2 *should* join=20 the project list, but keep in mind that since it is a rather small=20 coding project I'm only gonna have Robert do the actual coding. > StarMap is great-- the name is a lot less important than the=20 product. > We can always talk about it some more once we move on beyond the > initial port. OpenSphere (http://eykd.net/open/) is pretty much=20 just > some notes and a few pages of Perl, all of which I'll be happy to > contribute. OpenSphere, as I've envisioned it, is less of a > stand-alone application, and more of a network-based universe > creation/campaign management tool, I suppose. But the idea is=20 muddy, > and subject to change a lot as I learn more about what is possible=20 (or > impossible). > I'll start brainstorming ideas for feature requests. I read over OpenSphere, and it's a cool idea, just not what I intend=20 for StarMap 2. My suggestion is stick with StarMap 2 for now, then=20 when we've got something working, start your own project on=20 OpenForge, recruit a programmer on there (I got four offers the day=20 *after* I sent my request for help, and I know squat about=20 programming), and use the StarMap 2 code as a basis for OpenSphere. But whatever works for you...See ya around! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor=20 ADVERTISEMENT =20 =20 =20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rpg...@eg... Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 |
×
Want the latest updates on software, tech news, and AI?
Get latest updates about software, tech news, and AI from SourceForge directly in your inbox once a month.
Thanks for helping keep SourceForge clean.
X