From: Bob C. <bo...@bo...> - 2005-09-20 17:09:37
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Paul Lesneiwski wrote: > Did anyone else read: > > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/14/211225&threshold=3&tid=187&ti > d=95 > > The thing most noteworthy to me was this link: > > http://www.roundcube.net/ > > Seems like we should take hints from this while we design the templating > system. For example, in order to let template designers accomplish things > like drag and drop message and folder management, it might be useful to > make the API flexible enough to expose entry points that can be called in > an AJAX-like manner (w/out returning full HTML pages). Even if that is too > far off for us, I think modularizing things as much as possible is always > something to keep in mind - as soon as template systems start to pop up, > there will be requests to do all kinds of things we never dreamed of, so > we don't want to mire the new API in a static list of fixed page > offerings... Even more interesting to me was a mention of Zimbra (http://www.zimbra.com), an open source collaboration suite making extensive use of AJAX. Just check out the flash demo - it looks simply incredible. Bob C |
From: Jesse T. <jes...@do...> - 2005-09-20 17:23:45
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Bob Cottingham wrote: > Paul Lesneiwski wrote: >> Did anyone else read: >> >> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/14/211225&threshold=3&tid=187&ti >> d=95 >> >> The thing most noteworthy to me was this link: >> >> http://www.roundcube.net/ >> >> Seems like we should take hints from this while we design the templating >> system. For example, in order to let template designers accomplish things >> like drag and drop message and folder management, it might be useful to >> make the API flexible enough to expose entry points that can be called in >> an AJAX-like manner (w/out returning full HTML pages). Even if that is too >> far off for us, I think modularizing things as much as possible is always >> something to keep in mind - as soon as template systems start to pop up, >> there will be requests to do all kinds of things we never dreamed of, so >> we don't want to mire the new API in a static list of fixed page >> offerings... > > Even more interesting to me was a mention of Zimbra > (http://www.zimbra.com), an open source collaboration suite making > extensive use of AJAX. Just check out the flash demo - it looks simply > incredible. > > Bob C Zimbra won't work as a front-end to an existing IMAP server. |
From: Daniel W. <d...@ni...> - 2005-09-22 16:12:49
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>> >> >> Even more interesting to me was a mention of Zimbra >> (http://www.zimbra.com), an open source collaboration suite making >> extensive use of AJAX. Just check out the flash demo - it looks simply >> incredible. >> >> Bob C > > > Zimbra won't work as a front-end to an existing IMAP server. > But the question remains - could squirrelmail ever do stuff like that? =) It looks very nice and fast in flash. Runs a lot slower in the real demo however. But it's just a matter of bandwidth really and things are speeding up fast. It certainly has the inital 'wow' factor. |
From: Marc G. K. <ma...@sq...> - 2005-09-22 17:21:56
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On Do, september 22, 2005 18:10, Daniel Watts wrote: > >>> >>> >>> Even more interesting to me was a mention of Zimbra >>> (http://www.zimbra.com), an open source collaboration suite making >>> extensive use of AJAX. Just check out the flash demo - it looks simply >>> incredible. >>> >>> Bob C >>> >> >> >> Zimbra won't work as a front-end to an existing IMAP server. >> >> > > > But the question remains - could squirrelmail ever do stuff like that? =) I think so. Only missing factor is time to cleanup our source code (work on improved internal architecture), make it ready for templates. If we are done with that it should be possible to add a layer that takes care of handling the xml/rpc or soap. Most squirrelmail developers have fulltime jobs and work in their free time on squirrelmail so we cannot tell you how many months/years it will take before our internals are ready for advanced cool stuff like AJAX. Regards, Marc Groot Koerkamp. |
From: Daniel W. <d...@ni...> - 2005-09-23 10:44:40
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>>> >>> >> >> >>But the question remains - could squirrelmail ever do stuff like that? =) > > > I think so. Only missing factor is time to cleanup our source code (work > on improved internal architecture), make it ready for templates. If we are > done with that it should be possible to add a layer that takes care of > handling the xml/rpc or soap. > > Most squirrelmail developers have fulltime jobs and work in their free > time on squirrelmail so we cannot tell you how many months/years it will > take before our internals are ready for advanced cool stuff like AJAX. > Of course - I'm well aware of your situations and appreciate every second of your valuable rare spare time you spend developing squirrelmail. Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being required to get the internals and templating system done up to a standard capable of ajax like stuff? I reckon everyone in the squirrelmail community (must be a few 10's of thousands) donate a dollar so one of you lead guys can take a sabbatical and live off the money to do squirrelmail full time ;o) Ah the bliss of an idealist... |
From: Marc G. K. <ma...@sq...> - 2005-09-23 12:41:12
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On Fri, September 23, 2005 12:47, Daniel Watts wrote: > >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> But the question remains - could squirrelmail ever do stuff like >>> that? =) >> >> >> I think so. Only missing factor is time to cleanup our source code >> (work >> on improved internal architecture), make it ready for templates. If we >> are done with that it should be possible to add a layer that takes care >> of handling the xml/rpc or soap. >> >> Most squirrelmail developers have fulltime jobs and work in their free >> time on squirrelmail so we cannot tell you how many months/years it will >> take before our internals are ready for advanced cool stuff like AJAX. >> >> > > Of course - I'm well aware of your situations and appreciate every > second of your valuable rare spare time you spend developing squirrelmail. > > > Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being required > to get the internals and templating system done up to a standard capable of > ajax like stuff? > Good question, difficult to answer. It probably depends on the amount of code we rewrite in order to create a better internal structure. But i think with a month of 6 fulltime development we could do a lot including the ajax stuff. > I reckon everyone in the squirrelmail community (must be a few 10's of > thousands) donate a dollar so one of you lead guys can take a sabbatical > and live off the money to do squirrelmail full time ;o) Ah the bliss of an > idealist... > Hmm, a sabbatical sounds nice ;-) Regards, Marc Groot Koerkamp. |
From: Daniel W. <d...@ni...> - 2005-09-23 13:34:32
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>>Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being required >>to get the internals and templating system done up to a standard capable of >>ajax like stuff? > > Good question, difficult to answer. It probably depends on the amount of > code we rewrite in order to create a better internal structure. But i > think with a month of 6 fulltime development we could do a lot including > the ajax stuff. > That really doesn't seem to be so much does it? 30 days. Though I suppose thats 180 man days or half a man year. So about US$15k-20k worth of development (or are all of you 100k/yr one-man code powerhouses)? Ok we'll i'm pledging my buck =) Seriously though - how can money really help an open source effort? Even if 20k (how much actually do you think?) miraculously appeared, would the necessary developers realistically be able to take a month off work? I bet I could raise some dosh for this if it would guarantee a slick AJAX interface (option) by 1st QTR 2006. Assuming cooperation from the squirrelmail.org website to provide a platform to raise some funds. I'm just not sure if it would do any good. > >>I reckon everyone in the squirrelmail community (must be a few 10's of >>thousands) donate a dollar so one of you lead guys can take a sabbatical >>and live off the money to do squirrelmail full time ;o) Ah the bliss of an >>idealist... >> > > > Hmm, a sabbatical sounds nice ;-) Do does that mean you'll be a candidate for this proposed "Food and Shelter for Code" program =) |
From: Marc G. K. <ma...@sq...> - 2005-09-23 14:51:24
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On Fri, September 23, 2005 15:35, Daniel Watts wrote: > > >>> Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being >>> required to get the internals and templating system done up to a >>> standard capable of ajax like stuff? > >> >> Good question, difficult to answer. It probably depends on the amount >> of code we rewrite in order to create a better internal structure. But i >> think with a month of 6 fulltime development we could do a lot >> including the ajax stuff. >> > > That really doesn't seem to be so much does it? 30 days. Though I > suppose thats 180 man days or half a man year. So about US$15k-20k worth of > development (or are all of you 100k/yr one-man code powerhouses)? ehm 6 months, 180 days ;) > Seriously though - how can money really help an open source effort? Even > if 20k (how much actually do you think?) miraculously appeared, would the > necessary developers realistically be able to take a month off work? > I think we first need a legal entity like a foundation before SquirrelMail can collect money. Secondary the team must agree on paying developers for large development tasks. The situation everybody is equal, nobody get paid, to a situation some get paid is probably not an easy discussion and the discussion should be done very carefully. But to be honoust, we only had some discussion about SquirrelMail as foundation and we only talked about it, nothing more. > I bet I could raise some dosh for this if it would guarantee a slick > AJAX interface (option) by 1st QTR 2006. Assuming cooperation from the > squirrelmail.org website to provide a platform to raise some funds. I'm > just not sure if it would do any good. > Fundraising only works if we have developers who wants to work fulltime on SquirrelMail. Another situation when fundraising might work is when we have a bounty program for certain features. We don't have that and at this moment I don't want it because I think we should concentrate on the internal architecture in order to make it possible to add more features in the future. Extra features at this moment only slowdown development because it enlarge the amount of work when we decide to rewrite big parts and the extra features needs to be rewritten to to keep them available. >> >>> I reckon everyone in the squirrelmail community (must be a few 10's >>> of thousands) donate a dollar so one of you lead guys can take a >>> sabbatical and live off the money to do squirrelmail full time ;o) Ah >>> the bliss of an idealist... >>> >> >> >> Hmm, a sabbatical sounds nice ;-) >> > > Do does that mean you'll be a candidate for this proposed "Food and > Shelter for Code" program =) > Lol, if it ever comes that far we are going to use the name "Food and Shelter for Code" program. About being a candidate: maybe, depends on what i said above, the money involved and if I can take a sabatical and come back at my current job (or can find a new job). Regards, Marc Groot Koerkamp. |
From: Paul L. <pa...@sq...> - 2005-09-24 00:42:09
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Daniel Watts wrote: > > >>> Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being required >>> to get the internals and templating system done up to a standard >>> capable of >>> ajax like stuff? > > >> >> Good question, difficult to answer. It probably depends on the amount of >> code we rewrite in order to create a better internal structure. But i >> think with a month of 6 fulltime development we could do a lot including >> the ajax stuff. >> > > That really doesn't seem to be so much does it? 30 days. Though I > suppose thats 180 man days or half a man year. Damn, I guess Erin is not invited to this party. > So about US$15k-20k worth > of development (or are all of you 100k/yr one-man code powerhouses)? Somewhere on the order of US $13/hr is well below market rate here. Not that that wouldn't be better than the current US $0/hr we all get paid. > Seriously though - how can money really help an open source effort? Even > if 20k (how much actually do you think?) miraculously appeared, would > the necessary developers realistically be able to take a month off work? That's the question. Some people might be. Some can't realistically take a month off at the drop of a hat and expect their jobs to be waiting for them when they return. > I bet I could raise some dosh for this if it would guarantee a slick > AJAX interface (option) by 1st QTR 2006. Assuming cooperation from the > squirrelmail.org website to provide a platform to raise some funds. I'm > just not sure if it would do any good. The SM team has not been able to get the momentum needed to decide how donations would be handled and how they would be divided up. It's a sensitive topic, although I'm sure we could draw from other popular projects that actively receive donations. For the time being, it is possible for anyone who has set up their SourchForge user account to receive donations individually, but not like that's a good excuse for the discussion we really should have if this were to move forward. Personally, I am chomping at the bit to review the templating work and bolster it, but time is always an issue... -paul |
From: Jonathan A. <jo...@sq...> - 2005-09-23 16:04:29
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Daniel Watts, On Friday, September 23, 2005, you wrote: >>> But the question remains - could squirrelmail ever do stuff like that? = =3D) >> I think so. Only missing factor is time to cleanup our source code (work >> on improved internal architecture), make it ready for templates. If we a= re >> done with that it should be possible to add a layer that takes care of >> handling the xml/rpc or soap. >> >> Most squirrelmail developers have fulltime jobs and work in their free >> time on squirrelmail so we cannot tell you how many months/years it will >> take before our internals are ready for advanced cool stuff like AJAX. >> > Of course - I'm well aware of your situations and appreciate every > second of your valuable rare spare time you spend developing squirrelmail. > Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being required > to get the internals and templating system done up to a standard capable > of ajax like stuff? Interestingly enough, some projects at work have made my paths cross with AJAX. I was a little curious about it and started playing with it at home. I'm thinking it might actually not be too bad, especially once we have the templating system in place, and have the good stuff done with the core code. I'm reviewing some of our options on this with Marc at the moment on IRC, though he had to step away for a few, so it might be a long conversation. ;) > I reckon everyone in the squirrelmail community (must be a few 10's > of thousands) donate a dollar so one of you lead guys can take a > sabbatical and live off the money to do squirrelmail full time ;o) > Ah the bliss of an idealist... I've considered it, I am not entirely sure I could keep up programming if I was working from home... Too many other distractions, like tv, cameras, bikes, xbox, hehe. Now if you want to pay for a small office for me to work in too ;) - -- Jonathan Angliss <jo...@sq...> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDNCd/K4PoFPj9H3MRAhZUAJ4oOMN0tDJgBRK+ZcyeV5st/ZUeqwCffKzK oYrAYTu2S29KbxKS/+mlHPk=3D =3D3ceU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
From: Daniel W. <d...@ni...> - 2005-09-25 10:13:56
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>> >>>>Out of interest - how many man-hours would you estimate being required >>>>to get the internals and templating system done up to a standard >>>>capable of >>>>ajax like stuff? >> >> >>>Good question, difficult to answer. It probably depends on the amount of >>>code we rewrite in order to create a better internal structure. But i >>>think with a month of 6 fulltime development we could do a lot including >>>the ajax stuff. >>> >> >>That really doesn't seem to be so much does it? 30 days. Though I >>suppose thats 180 man days or half a man year. > > > Damn, I guess Erin is not invited to this party. > > >>So about US$15k-20k worth >>of development (or are all of you 100k/yr one-man code powerhouses)? > > > Somewhere on the order of US $13/hr is well below market rate here. Not > that that wouldn't be better than the current US $0/hr we all get paid. Oh yes that is low - may be i was thinking in sterling. double it (though still probaby a bit low). >>Seriously though - how can money really help an open source effort? Even >>if 20k (how much actually do you think?) miraculously appeared, would >>the necessary developers realistically be able to take a month off work? > > > That's the question. Some people might be. Some can't realistically > take a month off at the drop of a hat and expect their jobs to be > waiting for them when they return. Unless their companies used squirrelmail... > >>I bet I could raise some dosh for this if it would guarantee a slick >>AJAX interface (option) by 1st QTR 2006. Assuming cooperation from the >>squirrelmail.org website to provide a platform to raise some funds. I'm >>just not sure if it would do any good. > > > The SM team has not been able to get the momentum needed to decide how > donations would be handled and how they would be divided up. It's a > sensitive topic, although I'm sure we could draw from other popular > projects that actively receive donations. For the time being, it is > possible for anyone who has set up their SourchForge user account to > receive donations individually, but not like that's a good excuse for > the discussion we really should have if this were to move forward. Who pays for the squirrelmail domain and hosting? It would certainly be nice for the community to be able, at least, to contribute to and accelerate development. Obviously technical people can write code - but others who aren't so capable are left kind of helpless. Another idea I had was for companies to pledge a coder for half a day a week or something but this is hard because you can't pickup code structure without a bit of work and you're likely to forget bits from week to week. Marc mentioned a Bounty program. I noticed that this does in fact exist in the form of your wishlist (I cleaned it up a few days ago). No one has used it for paid-for-work yet though. I do understand this issue needs to be done carefully. Money is, after all, evil and has great power to divide a friendly, equal community. The biggest reward for open source should be recognition for your contribution to a truly excellent product. Developers can then use this to get higher paid jobs etc etc you know the story. So how about a model that all contributions can only be spent on people who are NOT in the team? Ie if you have a big bit of legwork coding you can outsource it. The recipient of the funds need not get recognition since they have been paid for the job and there is no risk of bad-feeling due to disagreements on fund splitting between developers (which has NO chance of being completely harmonious). > Personally, I am chomping at the bit to review the templating work and > bolster it, but time is always an issue... Time is the most valuable commodity and saving time on lesser work by getting other people to do it would help. |
From: Jonathan A. <jo...@sq...> - 2005-09-26 04:00:49
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello Daniel Watts, On Sunday, September 25, 2005, you wrote: > Who pays for the squirrelmail domain and hosting? Original domain was paid for by our previous host. A service provider I believe, Initio.no to who we are very grateful. Hosting is currently provided by Sourceforge, but we are in the process of moving to a donated server by XS4All courtesy of Cor Bosman and his team. I currently pay for the domain name. > It would certainly be nice for the community to be able, at least, > to contribute to and accelerate development. Certainly... if you could get my office to quit calling me for a week, I could probably take a week off. Unfortunately if I'm off sick, or take a vacation, it all seems to fall to hell there... God knows what'd happen if I got hit by a bus or something :) > Obviously technical people can write code - but others who aren't so > capable are left kind of helpless. Graphics? Layouts? Legal stuff? There are lots that can be done for the project. We could really do with some good legal brains to help out with some of this donation stuff for a start, and maybe some good business brains as well to work out a good plan of business and work on the "next step". > Another idea I had was for companies to pledge a coder for half a > day a week or something but this is hard because you can't pickup > code structure without a bit of work and you're likely to forget > bits from week to week. I don't think there isn't a bit saying that companies can't pay a developer to work on stuff. That certainly removes the need to worry about how to distribute stuff ;) > Marc mentioned a Bounty program. I noticed that this does in fact exist > in the form of your wishlist (I cleaned it up a few days ago). No one > has used it for paid-for-work yet though. > I do understand this issue needs to be done carefully. Money is, after > all, evil and has great power to divide a friendly, equal community. Indeed it is. > The biggest reward for open source should be recognition for your > contribution to a truly excellent product. Developers can then use > this to get higher paid jobs etc etc you know the story. > So how about a model that all contributions can only be spent on people > who are NOT in the team? Ie if you have a big bit of legwork coding you > can outsource it. The recipient of the funds need not get recognition > since they have been paid for the job and there is no risk of > bad-feeling due to disagreements on fund splitting between developers > (which has NO chance of being completely harmonious). But then you get into all kinds of complicated fun stuff such as extra copyrights, and how much do you pay developer x to do that project, and developer y to do that one, and if we are outsourcing the coding, why not spend that money to give a developer on the team a few days off work to burry his head ;) And we're in a circle again ;) >> Personally, I am chomping at the bit to review the templating work and >> bolster it, but time is always an issue... > Time is the most valuable commodity and saving time on lesser work > by getting other people to do it would help. Sure would do... But right now, I think the "lesser work" happens to be the big stuff. I've been meaning to try and speak to some of the higher ups at the office to see how many have heard of it. I deployed SM on the corporate network a while back as an emergency client after we found remote account managers couldn't access the web based Outlook client. Got raving reviews for its simplicity, and speed, but was promptly told to remove it after the CTO found out it was open source. Unfortunately he is very MS, and thinks because our product is MS, then everything else should be MS based too. 3 weeks later it was removed, and hasn't been restored yet. Though the company has recently undergone a change of hands, and I've been meaning to try talking to some of the higher ups now to see there views on open source projects, and special funding. They have already agreed to honour my original contract and pay for training courses I want to attend. - -- Jonathan Angliss <jo...@sq...> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (MingW32) iD8DBQFDN3JiK4PoFPj9H3MRAq6RAKDDSNIhw1SoKu1Mdrh2VWyjmGyFGACgyGJF /X80mCB9YiVM1p1bXKdJjRA= =B42m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |