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From: Bert F. <be...@im...> - 2004-11-11 17:39:31
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Am 11.11.2004 um 16:29 schrieb gor...@bl...: > But first things first - are everyone agreed on moving SF CVS to > squeakfoundation.org CVS? May I amend this proposal to move SF CVS over to SqF SVN? If we want to move the repository at all (and I think we want), then that would be the perfect time to "upgrade". Subversion seems to be very similar to CVS, but fixing its major flaws. Btw, we will also need two new mailing lists (vmdev and commit). - Bert - |
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From: <gor...@bl...> - 2004-11-11 22:12:07
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Hi all! Bert Freudenberg <be...@im...> wrote: > Am 11.11.2004 um 16:29 schrieb gor...@bl...: > > > But first things first - are everyone agreed on moving SF CVS to > > squeakfoundation.org CVS? > > May I amend this proposal to move SF CVS over to SqF SVN? Hehe, this is where we started - that was Tim's question/proposal. :) My point with first just moving CVS to our own server is that it should be simple to do and non-disruptive. Changing system will disrupt things, *whichever* system we choose. For example, the CVS GUI clients that people may be using today, or scripts people have will not work. > If we want to move the repository at all (and I think we want), then Yes, I think we all agree on moving at least. :) > that would be the perfect time to "upgrade". Subversion seems to be > very similar to CVS, but fixing its major flaws. Yes, but I have also read that it adds a few new flaws as well. But sure, all in all it is probably a step up from CVS no matter what. I just thought Darcs seemed so interesting and nice that I put it forward as an interesting venue. > Btw, we will also need two new mailing lists (vmdev and commit). Right. > - Bert - regards, Göran |
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From: Andreas R. <and...@gm...> - 2004-11-11 18:36:16
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Hi Guys,
How about having a quick poll so we see what the preferred options are? Here
it goes: You have from +2 to -2 with the obvious meaning (+2: strongly in
favour, +1: in favour, 0: don't care, etc.) Choices right now are CVS,
Subversion (SVN) and Darcs:
CVS SVN Darcs
Andreas +1 +2 -1
Bert
Goran
Ian
John
Ned
Tim
If I forgot someone/something please add. And as always, this is not a
scientific poll but just to get a rough feeling about what people think
right now (you can always change it later).
Cheers,
- Andreas
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From: tim R. <ti...@su...> - 2004-11-11 19:17:07
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Andreas Raab wrote: > Hi Guys, > > How about having a quick poll so we see what the preferred options are? > Here it goes: You have from +2 to -2 with the obvious meaning (+2: > strongly in favour, +1: in favour, 0: don't care, etc.) Choices right > now are CVS, Subversion (SVN) and Darcs: > > CVS SVN Darcs > Andreas +1 +2 -1 > Bert > Goran > Ian > John > Ned > Tim +1 +1 -2 (no ROS client) > If it is feasible to write a Squeak based client for any of these that doesn't rely on anything tricky (like some obscure ssh tunneling via a wormhole back through two anonymising portals and a pigeon post) then almost anything would be ok. Simple to use and get 'about right' is really important to me. CVS was a pain because of all those special cases about 'this operation is not directory recursive' etc wasting time. tim |
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From: Bert F. <be...@im...> - 2004-11-11 20:21:29
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Am 11.11.2004 um 20:17 schrieb tim Rowledge: > Andreas Raab wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> How about having a quick poll so we see what the preferred options >> are? Here it goes: You have from +2 to -2 with the obvious meaning >> (+2: strongly in favour, +1: in favour, 0: don't care, etc.) Choices >> right now are CVS, Subversion (SVN) and Darcs: >> CVS SVN Darcs >> Andreas +1 +2 -1 >> Bert >> Goran >> Ian >> John >> Ned >> Tim +1 +1 -2 (no ROS client) Bert +1 +1 0 - Bert - |
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From: John M M. <jo...@sm...> - 2004-11-11 21:34:19
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>> CVS SVN Darcs > +1 +1 -2 (no ROS client) + 1 +1 -1 -- ======================================================================== === John M. McIntosh <jo...@sm...> 1-800-477-2659 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ======================================================================== === |
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From: <gor...@bl...> - 2004-11-11 22:12:02
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Hi people! tim Rowledge <ti...@su...> wrote: > Andreas Raab wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > How about having a quick poll so we see what the preferred options are? > > Here it goes: You have from +2 to -2 with the obvious meaning (+2: > > strongly in favour, +1: in favour, 0: don't care, etc.) Choices right > > now are CVS, Subversion (SVN) and Darcs: > > > > CVS SVN Darcs > > Andreas +1 +2 -1 > > Bert > > Goran +1 0 +2 My reasoning is something like this: - Svn doesn't give us anything substantially new, so choosing between CVS and Svn I say stay in CVS. I mean, why bother? - Darcs on the other hand actually would give us a model that seems much more in line with how we work. I think that would be worth trying. > > Ian > > John > > Ned > > Tim +1 +1 -2 (no ROS client) > > If it is feasible to write a Squeak based client for any of these that > doesn't rely on anything tricky (like some obscure ssh tunneling via a > wormhole back through two anonymising portals and a pigeon post) then > almost anything would be ok. Could you repeat the reasons for a Squeak client? Was it because of a lack of SSH on RiscOS? Darcs seems to only rely on Haskell and I thought I saw that GHC was available on RiscOS, or is it not? > Simple to use and get 'about right' is really important to me. CVS was a > pain because of all those special cases about 'this operation is not > directory recursive' etc wasting time. > > tim In this case I think Darcs is a great choice - it seems much easier to use. :) Btw, in a private email to Ian I managed to point out quite a few good reasons for Darcs - if it is ok with Ian I can repost it to the list. regards, Göran |
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From: Ned K. <ne...@bi...> - 2004-11-11 21:38:09
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On Thursday 11 November 2004 10:35 am, Andreas Raab wrote: > Hi Guys, > > How about having a quick poll so we see what the preferred options are? > Here it goes: You have from +2 to -2 with the obvious meaning (+2: strongly > in favour, +1: in favour, 0: don't care, etc.) Choices right now are CVS, > Subversion (SVN) and Darcs: > > CVS SVN Darcs Ned +1 +1 0 -- Ned Konz http://bike-nomad.com |
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From: <le...@cc...> - 2004-11-12 15:15:41
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I've been using subversion for a while now (over a year) and now I always choose it over CVS when possible. Some nice features are: 1. It has built-in rename and copy operations. So if you name a file wrong, or put it in the wrong directory, you can fix it and the version control system doesn't get messed up. How many CVS projects have you all been on where you have a stupidly-named file but you leave it alone because you don't think it's worth losing the history of the file? 2. It has a tagging system that is dirt simple and that I actually understand. You simply do "copy" operations on directory trees. For example, you can have a "releases" directory, and then do things like "svn copy mainstuff releases/squeak-3.7.0" to make releases/squeak-3.7.0 have an entire copy of the tree saved into releases/squeak-3.7.0. 3. The commands for manipulating directories are a lot simpler than with CVS. They are things like "svn mkdir" and "svn rmdir". Overall, my experience suggests that the summary given by others is correct: it is CVS with some of the annoying parts cleaned up. As for accessing from Squeak, I expect that svn is harder to implement directly; CVS operates on one file at a time, while svn operations can be more complicated. It's not necessary to implement svn natively, though, given that we have OSProcess arounnd. Just fork-exec svn processes as necessary. Incidentally, if you do switch to SVN, be aware that you don't need to bother with all the HTTP-based stuff that they try to get you to use. The "svn+ssh" mode works just fine and is equivalent to accessing CVS over ssh the familiar way it is done on SourceForge. I don't know anything about darcs or about the different styles of VCS systems, so can't help there. -Lex |
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From: Bert F. <be...@im...> - 2004-11-12 16:06:52
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Am 12.11.2004 um 21:15 schrieb le...@cc...:
> I've been using subversion for a while now (over a year) and now I
> always choose it over CVS when possible.[...]
> I don't know anything about darcs or about the different styles of VCS
> systems, so can't help there.
Can we interpret this as
CVS SVN DARCS
Lex -2 +2 0
? ;-)
- Bert -
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From: <le...@cc...> - 2004-11-13 10:01:00
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Bert Freudenberg <be...@im...> wrote: > Am 12.11.2004 um 21:15 schrieb le...@cc...: > > > I've been using subversion for a while now (over a year) and now I > > always choose it over CVS when possible.[...] > > I don't know anything about darcs or about the different styles of VCS > > systems, so can't help there. > > Can we interpret this as > > CVS SVN DARCS > Lex -2 +2 0 > > ? ;-) > Hmm, that sounds about right, but I had decided to abstain. The people who use it all the time should choose! Just take this as warning that if you use CVS, or if you switch to DARCS and it sucks, I will harp forever about how SVN would have made things easier. :) Lex |
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From: <gor...@bl...> - 2004-11-15 08:58:24
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Hi fellow Squeakers! (good mood today :)) le...@cc... wrote: > I've been using subversion for a while now (over a year) and now I > always choose it over CVS when possible. Some nice features are: [SNIP of examples] > Overall, my experience suggests that the summary given by others is > correct: it is CVS with some of the annoying parts cleaned up. Yes, I haven't used it myself but I agree - this is what it looks like from everything I have read. > As for accessing from Squeak, I expect that svn is harder to implement > directly; CVS operates on one file at a time, while svn operations can > be more complicated. Eh... well, the main difference might be (given that I haven't looked at Svn) that the client part of CVS is somewhat simple to implement (the pserver protocol) because it is just a slave-mode-kinda-thing, all the logic is on the server side. So the protocol is almost a trivial remote-filesystem-protocol with some CVS-state-management thrown in. I implemented it up to 90% in Sqcvs (why though escapes me for the moment, but it was fun :)). Perhaps Svn has a similar design of course and it would be easy. And btw Darcs is also "bad" in this regard - since it is serverless all the logic is "in the client" so to speak. So reimplementing those 3000 lines of Haskell is not an option :). What we *could* do is of course to set up some kind of gateway (regardless if we go with Svn/CVS/whatever) so that it is at least easy to checkout/update the tree for readonly purposes. Hacking up something like that would be fun. > It's not necessary to implement svn natively, > though, given that we have OSProcess arounnd. Just fork-exec svn > processes as necessary. It wasn't "necessary" with CVS either - it is just that Tim has issues on RiscOS (not sure what they are at the moment) and that there is a "cleanliness" of course if we could have a mechanism that works on all platforms that Squeak works including the really odd ones. But... of course, we should also remember that there is always a dependency on the other parts of the VM build system like gcc etc. So any VCS that builds somewhat cleanly using gcc doesn't add any problem AFAICT. > Incidentally, if you do switch to SVN, be aware that you don't need to > bother with all the HTTP-based stuff that they try to get you to use. > The "svn+ssh" mode works just fine and is equivalent to accessing CVS > over ssh the familiar way it is done on SourceForge. > > I don't know anything about darcs or about the different styles of VCS > systems, so can't help there. > > -Lex Just a quick note about Darcs: I just love it. :) Even if we don't go with Darcs for the Squeak VM (and I suspect highly we won't, since the people that have the vote (=port maintainers) are so much against it) I intend to set up a Darcs "mirror" of the Squeak CVS and I also intend to use it for all my other personal needs. It is just so damn wonderful. I really, *really* recommend everyone to take a swift look just to broaden your views, totally regardless of the Squeak VM hosting issue. And it is EASY to play with it a few minutes. regards, Göran |
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