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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-12-18 20:32:48
|
Andrew Diederich wrote the following on 18.12.2006 21:14 : > Dec 18 12:32:43 tango sqlgrey: dbaccess: warning: couldn't do query: UP= DATE from_awl SET last_seen =3D NOW(), first_seen =3D first_seen WHERE se= nder_name =3D 'man=C3=83=C5=A1genervy' AND sender_domain =3D 'abyss.wesn.= sun.com' AND src =3D '81.215.189.168': ERROR: invalid byte sequence for = encoding "UNICODE": 0xe86765 , reconnecting to DB > =20 Hum, did you try to use a database with ASCII instead of UNICODE?=20 SQLgrey doesn't try to speak utf-8 with the database but only pure=20 ASCII. If you receive adresses with characters outside the utf-8 space,=20 this behavior is expected with a UNICODE database. Nothing to do with unicode domain names (these ones are encoded in ASCII=20 anyway, so Postfix and SQLgrey don't need to be aware of them). You=20 can't configure Postfix easily to solve this and to solve it in SQLgrey,=20 we would have to make it aware of the database encoding and call iconv=20 to make sure everything fits, assuming the original encoding is always=20 ISO-8859-1 for the Return-Path. ASCII at the database level is your best bet, you should dump your DB,=20 create another one with ASCII encoding, restore the original DB in the=20 new one, change SQLgrey's database in sqlgrey.conf and restart SQLgrey. Lionel |
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From: Andrew D. <and...@gm...> - 2006-12-18 20:15:02
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Hello SQLgrey, I've run into quite a few instances over the last month or so where SQLgrey gets a "SQLgrey database error" and then recovers. I think it has to do with unicode domain names. I started running SQLgrey with more logging, and here's a snippet for when things go badly: Dec 18 12:32:41 tango postfix/smtpd[10133]: connect from unknown[81.215.189= .168] Dec 18 12:32:42 tango sqlgrey: 2006/12/18-12:32:42 CONNECT TCP Peer: "127.0= .0.1:54494" Local: "127.0.0.1:2501" Dec 18 12:32:42 tango sqlgrey: optin: greylisting active for jb...@ex... Dec 18 12:32:42 tango sqlgrey: grey: unknown RDNS: 81.215.189.168 Dec 18 12:32:42 tango sqlgrey: warning: Use of uninitialized value in conca= tenation (.) or string at /usr/sbin/sqlgrey line 1062. Dec 18 12:32:42 tango sqlgrey: dbaccess: error: couldn't access from_awl ta= ble:=20 Dec 18 12:32:43 tango sqlgrey: grey: from awl match: updating 81.215.189.16= 8(81.215.189.168), man...@ab...(man=C3=A8gednervy@a= byss.wesn.sun.com) Dec 18 12:32:43 tango sqlgrey: dbaccess: warning: couldn't do query: UPDATE= from_awl SET last_seen =3D NOW(), first_seen =3D first_seen WHERE sender_n= ame =3D 'man=C3=A8genervy' AND sender_domain =3D 'abyss.wesn.sun.com' AND s= rc =3D '81.215.189.168': ERROR: invalid byte sequence for encoding "UNICOD= E": 0xe86765 , reconnecting to DB Dec 18 12:32:43 tango postfix/pickup[9793]: 04D7E1A6BD: uid=3D1004 from=3D<= sqlgrey> That line in SQLgrey is a log error: $self->mylog('dbaccess', 0, "error: couldn't access $from_awl table: $DBI:= :errstr"); and the whole function is: ## Match connections to AWLs ## sub is_in_from_awl { my ($self, $sender_name, $sender_domain, $host) =3D @_; # last_seen less than $self->{sqlgrey}{awl_age} days ago my $sth =3D $self->prepare("SELECT 1 FROM $from_awl " . 'WHERE sender_name =3D ? ' . 'AND sender_domain =3D ? ' . 'AND src =3D ? ' . 'AND last_seen > ' . $self->past_tstamp($self->{sqlgrey}{awl_age}, 'DAY') ); if (!defined $sth or !$sth->execute($sender_name, $sender_domain, $host= )) { $self->db_unavailable(); $self->mylog('dbaccess', 0, "error: couldn't access $from_awl table: $D= BI::errstr"); return 1; # in doubt, accept } else { $self->db_available(); } my $result =3D $sth->fetchall_arrayref(); if ($#$result !=3D 0) { return 0; # not a single entry } else { return 1; # one single entry (no multiple entries by design) } } Is there anything I can do in either SQLgrey or postfix to stop this from happening? As far as I can tell it always reconnects right away, but it is a little concerning. --=20 Best regards, Andrew |
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From: Michael Z. <zi...@ve...> - 2006-12-03 09:47:40
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Just to let you all know: The problem disappeared after starting sqlgrey correctly with the -d (deamonize) flag. Have a nice day, thanks for your help. Michael |
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From: Dan F. <da...@ha...> - 2006-12-01 16:57:54
|
Lionel Bouton wrote: > Michael Zimmermann wrote the following on 30.11.2006 23:49 : > >> after running a while sqlgrey stops working. The logs show, that it >> restarted, but it's >> port is closed after the restart. >> > > It could be the old sqlgrey process still living and bound to the socket > when the new one comes up (the underlying Net::Server::Multiplex library > has already demonstrated this behaviour on my systems). My solution was to : > 1/ add a long enough sleep between the TERM signal (sqlgrey -k or > killall sqlgrey for example) and the restart. > My other policy daemon actually did this from time to time, though i dont recall sqlgrey doing it. My solution was first the "sleep 2" thingie, but i then solved it by adding "Reuse => 1" to the creation of Net::Server. It seemed that the socket wasnt released fast enough and adding "Reuse" should allow it to... Well.. Reuse the socket ;) Ive also had a similar problem with postgrey back in the days, which was due to the cleanup running for to long time which made postfix believe it was offline. (though i dont remember if the socket actually died). If Michaels problem persists, socket "Reuse" might be worth a try. - Dan Faerch |
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From: Michael Z. <zi...@ve...> - 2006-12-01 01:40:56
|
Hi Lionel, thanks for your help. > Anyway, why do you need to restart SQLgrey? There are reasons such as > DBD-driver leaks with some versions of the PostgreSQL DBD driver for > example, but they should be exceptions. > I didn't restart it. Sqlgrey did that on itself. I just observed that it did not do it's job after some time, recognized that port 2501 was closed , so I set a watchdog on localhost:2501 and checked what had happened, when the watchdog barked. But perhaps that problem was a consequence of not starting sqlgrey as a daemon. I will see and come back with the results, after it runs a day or two started correctly with the -d flag. :) greetings Michael |
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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-11-30 23:17:08
|
Michael Zimmermann wrote the following on 30.11.2006 23:49 : > Dear list, > > after running a while sqlgrey stops working. The logs show, that it > restarted, but it's > port is closed after the restart. It could be the old sqlgrey process still living and bound to the socket when the new one comes up (the underlying Net::Server::Multiplex library has already demonstrated this behaviour on my systems). My solution was to : 1/ add a long enough sleep between the TERM signal (sqlgrey -k or killall sqlgrey for example) and the restart. 2/ use Nagios to monitor the port (check_tcp) and be warned if it goes down. > > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:05 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 Good I know the version -:) > Use of uninitialized value in unlink at /usr/sbin/sqlgrey line 2577. Odd : it seems the pidfile location is undefined when trying to kill the daemon. > > The sqlgrey is just started manually via a > # nohup sqlgrey & > Ok I know why SQLgrey doesn't find a pidfile: it doesn't know it is running as a daemon. You should start it with 'sqlgrey -d' and kill it with 'sqlgrey -k' both as root (they need read/write access to /var/run/sqlgrey.pid and change to sqlgrey's uid later anyway). > or am I wrong about that, and the sqlgrey needs to be entered into the > master.cf to be started as a postfix-service? > No, it doesn't support running from master.cf (until someone codes the support for this). To sum up : - first try the 'sqlgrey -d' / 'sqlgrey -k' start/stop method, - then if you still have problems when restarting SQLgrey, make a short pause (one second should be enough, increase if you still have problems) between the stop and the start. Anyway, why do you need to restart SQLgrey? There are reasons such as DBD-driver leaks with some versions of the PostgreSQL DBD driver for example, but they should be exceptions. Lionel. |
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From: <tom...@fi...> - 2006-11-30 22:53:41
|
On 2006-11-30 22:51:35 +0100, Lionel Bouton <lio...@bo...> said: > > ahd1014.activehost.com [69.89.227.49] > > > > That > 's a suspicious looking little box... This is not the MX for the > domain (although it isn't uncommon to have differ > ent outgoing servers, > it's rather uncommon that they have > such anonymous names). A bunch of > dns lookups in the sam > e class C shows several other > ahd10??.activehost.com name > s scattered across the class C. Does this > system really s > end legitimate mails and if affirmative, from which domai > ns? Namecheap, a popular domain registar (http://www.namecheap.com/). I only noticed when one of my domains nearly expired when I didn't get a renewal notice. I have them in my whitelist now, and here is recent log. Nov 27 06:25:48 ra postfix/smtpd[24032]: connect from ahd1014.activehost.com[69.89.227.49] Nov 27 06:25:49 ra sqlgrey: whitelist: ren...@na..., 69.89.227.49(ahd1014.activehost.com) -> tom...@fi... Nov 27 06:25:49 ra postfix/smtpd[24032]: 2B2F78C020: client=ahd1014.activehost.com[69.89.227.49] Nov 27 06:25:49 ra postfix/cleanup[24034]: 2B2F78C020: message-id=<20061127-00210389-9a4-0@IPDMDZ000 2MIA> Nov 27 06:25:49 ra postfix/qmgr[14772]: 2B2F78C020: from=<ren...@na...>, size=1805, nrcpt= 1 (queue active) [cut] I guess you could try it by registering a account with namecheap and wait for the confirmation mail, but I doubt it they fixed it. Tomislav |
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From: Michael Z. <zi...@ve...> - 2006-11-30 22:49:43
|
Dear list, after running a while sqlgrey stops working. The logs show, that it restarted, but it's port is closed after the restart. Running it with log-level 4 showed: optin: greylisting active for zi...@ve... grey: identified dynamic pattern (last IP byte): 12-226-48-61.client.mchsi.com, 12.226.48.61: Using full IP. grey: reconnect ok: 12.226.48.61(12.226.48.61), jo...@pi... -> zi...@ve... (00:05:05) grey: from awl: 12.226.48.61, jo...@pi... added request: ccert_fingerprint= ccert_issuer= ccert_subject= client_address=12.226.48.61 client_name=12-226-48-61.client.mchsi.com helo_name=friend instance=472.456e1830.0 protocol_name=ESMTP protocol_state=RCPT queue_id= rec...@ve... request=smtpd_access_policy sasl_method= sasl_sender= sasl_username= sen...@pi... size=0 action=PREPEND X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:05 by SQLgrey-1.7.4 2006/11/30-00:32:06 Server closing! 2006/11/30-00:32:06 HUP'ing server 2006/11/30-00:32:07 sqlgrey (type Net::Server::Multiplex) starting! pid(30268) Use of uninitialized value in unlink at /usr/sbin/sqlgrey line 2577. Binding open file descriptors Binding to TCP port 2501 on host localhost Setting gid to "66 66" other: Initial cleanup perf: spent 0s cleaning: from_awl (0) domain_awl (0) connect (0) -- after that sqlgrey's port is closed -- As the lines before the final stop + (unsuccessful) restart don't have a timestamp, I am not sure, that the last action did really occur just before the shutdown+restart. Hence the reason for the shutdown could well be something, which is not connected with the input (but perhaps with a timeout on the postfix side?). The sqlgrey is just started manually via a # nohup sqlgrey & or am I wrong about that, and the sqlgrey needs to be entered into the master.cf to be started as a postfix-service? Thanks for your ideas about that situation Michael |
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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-11-30 21:51:45
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Tomislav Filip=C4=8Di=C4=87 wrote the following on 30.11.2006 19:15 : > On 2006-11-30 14:10:50 +0100, Lionel Bouton=20 > <lio...@bo...> said: > > =20 >> I've received a notification for the two following servers. >> >> mxs1.siemens.at (194.138.12.131) >> mxs2.siemens.at (194.138.12.133) >> >> Apparently they don't retry. Can anyone confirm this? At least they=20 >> seem legitimate. So baring any problem, I'll add them in the whitelist= s=20 >> tomorrow. >> =20 > > > ahd1014.activehost.com [69.89.227.49] > =20 That's a suspicious looking little box... This is not the MX for the domain (although it isn't uncommon to have different outgoing servers, it's rather uncommon that they have such anonymous names). A bunch of dns lookups in the same class C shows several other ahd10??.activehost.com names scattered across the class C. Does this system really send legitimate mails and if affirmative, from which domain= s? Lionel |
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From: <tom...@fi...> - 2006-11-30 20:20:22
|
On 2006-11-30 14:10:50 +0100, Lionel Bouton <lio...@bo...> said: > I've received a notification for the two following servers. > > mxs1.siemens.at (194.138.12.131) > mxs2.siemens.at (194.138.12.133) > > Apparently they don't retry. Can anyone confirm this? At least they > seem legitimate. So baring any problem, I'll add them in the whitelists > tomorrow. ahd1014.activehost.com [69.89.227.49] No retry. As they are a hosting company I presume they use multiple SMTP servers. |
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From: Michael S. <Mic...@lr...> - 2006-11-30 13:53:57
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On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Lionel Bouton wrote: > I've received a notification for the two following servers. > > mxs1.siemens.at (194.138.12.131) > mxs2.siemens.at (194.138.12.133) > At least they are in my domain_awl: +---------------+----------------+---------------------+---------------------+ | sender_domain | src | first_seen | last_seen | +---------------+----------------+---------------------+---------------------+ | siemens.com | 194.138.12.131 | 2006-01-16 16:17:12 | 2006-11-29 15:08:34 | | siemens.com | 194.138.12.133 | 2005-10-12 09:00:21 | 2006-11-29 10:48:59 | +---------------+----------------+---------------------+---------------------+ And they use sendmail: telnet 194.138.12.131 25 Trying 194.138.12.131... Connected to 194.138.12.131. Escape character is '^]'. 220 atvies1zqx.siemens.at ESMTP MTA ready at Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:50:32 +0100 help 214-2.0.0 This is sendmail version 8.13.1 214-2.0.0 Topics: 214-2.0.0 HELO EHLO MAIL RCPT DATA 214-2.0.0 RSET NOOP QUIT HELP VRFY 214-2.0.0 EXPN VERB ETRN DSN AUTH 214-2.0.0 STARTTLS 214-2.0.0 For more info use "HELP <topic>". 214-2.0.0 To report bugs in the implementation send email to 214-2.0.0 sen...@se.... 214-2.0.0 For local information send email to Postmaster at your site. 214 2.0.0 End of HELP info Therefore I assume they retry. > Apparently they don't retry. Can anyone confirm this? At least they seem > legitimate. So baring any problem, I'll add them in the whitelists tomorrow. > > Lionel. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > Sqlgrey-users mailing list > Sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sqlgrey-users > Michael Storz -- ====================================================== Leibniz-Rechenzentrum | <mailto:St...@lr...> Boltzmannstr. 1 | Fax: +49 89 35831-9700 85748 Garching / Germany | Tel: +49 89 35831-8840 ====================================================== |
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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-11-30 13:11:03
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I've received a notification for the two following servers. mxs1.siemens.at (194.138.12.131) mxs2.siemens.at (194.138.12.133) Apparently they don't retry. Can anyone confirm this? At least they seem legitimate. So baring any problem, I'll add them in the whitelists tomorrow. Lionel. |
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From: Bob T. <ta...@re...> - 2006-11-23 04:20:22
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Urban, Frank wrote: > You forgot Debian ftp://ftp.real-time.com/linux/real-time/pool/main/s/sqlobject Or add to your apt sources list deb ftp://ftp.real-time.com/linux/real-time sid custom main contrib non-free OR deb ftp://ftp.real-time.com/linux/real-time etch custom main contrib non-free OR deb ftp://ftp.real-time.com/linux/real-time sarge custom main contrib non-free % sudo apt-get update % sudo apt-get install sqlgrey lintian and linda complain on a couple policy things. I'll put up a bzr repo of the debian directory over the next couple of days. -- Bob Tanner <ta...@re...> | Phone : (952)943-8700 http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax : (952)943-8500 Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42 1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288 |
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From: Dan F. <da...@ha...> - 2006-11-22 13:51:25
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Lionel Bouton wrote: > The only distribution I've access to are RedHat/Fedora based. Could > people test it on Trustix/Mandriva/Suse (and other RPM based > distributions I forgot)? I'd like to see it tested a little more before > being pushed to the CVS server. > > Lionel Ah.. RPM.. Thats why i couldnt figure out what the file was for ;).. (Debian user). - Dan |
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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-11-22 09:36:58
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Urban, Frank wrote the following on 22.11.2006 07:23 : > > >> The only distribution I've access to are RedHat/Fedora based. >> Could people test it on Trustix/Mandriva/Suse (and other RPM >> based distributions I forgot)? I'd like to see it tested a >> little more before being pushed to the CVS server. >> >> > You forgot Debian > Never (I'm a Gentoo user but consider Debian with respect and even advocate its use for a lot of usage patterns). But testing a RPM spec file on Debian, you know... Lionel |
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From: Urban, F. <Fra...@co...> - 2006-11-22 06:23:46
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> > The only distribution I've access to are RedHat/Fedora based. > Could people test it on Trustix/Mandriva/Suse (and other RPM > based distributions I forgot)? I'd like to see it tested a > little more before being pushed to the CVS server. > You forgot Debian I can help with Suse if there is nobody else Frank |
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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-11-21 23:05:38
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dal...@be... wrote the following on 21.11.2006 02:46 : > I'd like to offer this version of a spec file for inclusion in sqlgrey. > > I made a few changes such including: > > Adding the missing discrimintation.regexp to %files. > Identifying all the configs as such. > Using macros rather than paths where possible. > Call chkconfig on install and uninstall. > Identify /etc/sqlgrey/README as a %doc. > The only distribution I've access to are RedHat/Fedora based. Could people test it on Trustix/Mandriva/Suse (and other RPM based distributions I forgot)? I'd like to see it tested a little more before being pushed to the CVS server. Lionel |
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From: <dal...@be...> - 2006-11-21 01:46:13
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I'd like to offer this version of a spec file for inclusion in sqlgrey.
I made a few changes such including:
Adding the missing discrimintation.regexp to %files.
Identifying all the configs as such.
Using macros rather than paths where possible.
Call chkconfig on install and uninstall.
Identify /etc/sqlgrey/README as a %doc.
I would have defined the init dir using a macro as below but the Makefile
uses /etc/init.d which is actually a symlink to /etc/rc.d/init.d.
I would like to suggest changing the Makefile to usr /etc/rc.d/init.d for
at least redhat. I'm not familiar with Gentoo or Debian.
# expands to /etc/rc.d/init.d, but Makefile uses /etc/init.d
#%{_initrddir}/%{name}
/etc/init.d/%{name}
Tested on Fedora Core 5.
--
http://bewley.net/ |
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From: Lionel B. <lio...@bo...> - 2006-11-20 23:02:38
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Michael Storz wrote the following on 17.11.2006 08:56 : > Hi Lionel, > > since you are again answering questions on the list, I would like to ask > you the question about the future of Sqlgrey. > > Will there be a further developement of Sqlgrey or do we have to continue > to hack Sqlgrey for the features we want to have? > One could become a SQLgrey developer too :-) This is already the case for Dan Faerch who released 1.7.4. If you want to, just tell me and I'll give you write access to the CVS. The rules are simple: I've not much time for 1.7.x so anything 1.7 is your call. I may help stabilize and polish 1.7 when you plan to release a stable 1.8.x. 1.6.x is my territory :-) I feel responsible for its stability and will patch it if necessary. I maintain the dynamic config repository where whitelists and (non)smtp server regexps are stored but if you need to add things to the repository and I'm not responsive enough you can always change the default base URL and maintain your own. > In the meantime our version of Sqlgrey has a lot of changes. A simple diff > of sqlgrey-1.7.4 and our version produces 3000+ lines. We have new > fields in the table entries, we have additional tables, different logging, > have changed the internal coding how the tables are accessed to get > consistent behavior and a lot more minor changes. > > I am also interested to incorporate the changes Bob has made, to get > Sqlgrey running in taint-mode, using a module for the configuration etc. > > So, is the project dead, just waiting for the end of the greylisting area? > Not dead, only sleeping and waiting for someone to wake it :-) Lionel |
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From: Kasey S. <ksp...@as...> - 2006-11-20 22:40:06
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Thanks. It seems to work. :) On Nov 20, 2006, at 2:10 PM, Internet Helpdesk wrote: > Kasey Speakman wrote: >> Can I specify multiple email addresses in the field admin_mail >> (probably separated by a comma) in the sqlgrey.conf file? >> > I think I asked the same question, once upon a time. > > Yes, comma separated no spaces. > > -Troy > > -- > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to > share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php? > page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > Sqlgrey-users mailing list > Sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sqlgrey-users > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > |
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From: Internet H. <hel...@wc...> - 2006-11-20 20:10:51
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Kasey Speakman wrote: > Can I specify multiple email addresses in the field admin_mail > (probably separated by a comma) in the sqlgrey.conf file? > I think I asked the same question, once upon a time. Yes, comma separated no spaces. -Troy -- |
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From: Kasey S. <ksp...@as...> - 2006-11-20 20:01:42
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Can I specify multiple email addresses in the field admin_mail (probably separated by a comma) in the sqlgrey.conf file? |
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From: Kasey S. <ksp...@as...> - 2006-11-17 22:15:53
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Ah, ok. That's what I thought, but then I didn't see any retries after that, so I didn't know if it got rejected. Thanks again, Kasey On Nov 17, 2006, at 4:12 PM, Daniel J McDonald wrote: > On Fri, 2006-11-17 at 16:08 -0600, Kasey Speakman wrote: >> I see entries in the log that say... sqlgrey: spam: ... >> >> What happens to them? Do they get rejected flat out? > > The entries are removed from the connection table. > > If the client were to retry to send the message again, it would go > through the same 5 minute day as if it were a new client. > > > > -- > Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX > Austin Energy > http://www.austinenergy.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to > share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php? > page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > _______________________________________________ > Sqlgrey-users mailing list > Sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sqlgrey-users > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > |
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From: Daniel J M. <dan...@au...> - 2006-11-17 22:13:01
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On Fri, 2006-11-17 at 16:08 -0600, Kasey Speakman wrote: > I see entries in the log that say... sqlgrey: spam: ... > > What happens to them? Do they get rejected flat out? The entries are removed from the connection table. If the client were to retry to send the message again, it would go through the same 5 minute day as if it were a new client. -- Daniel J McDonald, CCIE # 2495, CISSP # 78281, CNX Austin Energy http://www.austinenergy.com |
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From: Kasey S. <ksp...@as...> - 2006-11-17 22:08:17
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I see entries in the log that say... sqlgrey: spam: ... What happens to them? Do they get rejected flat out? Kasey |