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From: David J <ja...@in...> - 2007-04-19 03:30:46
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George You may care to check this ATO document. http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/42952.htm (Sorry I can't hyperlink from this webmail. Pls cut 'n paste.) Perhaps you don't "sell" vouchers, but rather "issue" them. Perhaps the issue of a voucher should NOT be invoiced at all. Invoice only when voucher redeemed. A voucher is a lot like a promissory note or an IOU, rather than a sale. So the outstanding vouchers are like mini-loans from your customers. GST only when voucher redeemed for goods/services. YMMV in accordance with local conditions. As always, check with your accountant. - David J > On Thursday 19 April 2007, la...@cl... wrote: > > 1. create gift voucher in part. > > 2. create sales invoice to sell a gift voucher to john > > smith (money to your bank). > > 3. create an negative ar transaction (money to your > > credit note or gift voucher account) for john smith. > > What would you do with taxes here? > > > 4. john smith's account should now reflect that he has a > credit. > > > the credit note or gift voucher account should help you > > track your gift vouchers. > > > > would this do it? > > > > Anybody out there selling gift vouchers? If so how do > > > you do it? How do you > > > track them? > > > > > > > > > -- > > > George > > > AUSTRALIA > > > http://www.okstudio.com.au > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 > > > Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of > > > DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. > > > Just data. Click to get it now. > > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > sql-ledger-users mailing list > > > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 > > Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 > > express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just > > data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > sql-ledger-users mailing list > > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > > -- > George > AUSTRALIA > http://www.okstudio.com.au > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 > Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 > express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just > data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users |
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From: Roy N. <RNi...@NB...> - 2007-04-19 15:19:34
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I agree that there is no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed (which, from a business standpoint is hopefully never). However, vouchers, coupons, options, etc. are liabilities against the business (this is why they usually come with expiration dates) and should be recorded as such. Roy On 19-Apr-2007, at 00:30, David J wrote: > George > You may care to check this ATO document. > http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/42952.htm > (Sorry I can't hyperlink from this webmail. Pls cut 'n > paste.) > Perhaps you don't "sell" vouchers, but rather "issue" them. > Perhaps the issue of a voucher should NOT be invoiced at > all. > Invoice only when voucher redeemed. > A voucher is a lot like a promissory note or an IOU, rather > than a sale. > So the outstanding vouchers are like mini-loans from your > customers. > GST only when voucher redeemed for goods/services. > YMMV in accordance with local conditions. > As always, check with your accountant. > - David J > > >> On Thursday 19 April 2007, la...@cl... wrote: >>> 1. create gift voucher in part. >>> 2. create sales invoice to sell a gift voucher to john >>> smith (money to your bank). >>> 3. create an negative ar transaction (money to your >>> credit note or gift voucher account) for john smith. >> >> What would you do with taxes here? >> >>> 4. john smith's account should now reflect that he has a >> credit. > >>> the credit note or gift voucher account should help you >>> track your gift vouchers. >>> >>> would this do it? >> >>>> Anybody out there selling gift vouchers? If so how do >>>> you do it? How do you >>>> track them? >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> George >>>> AUSTRALIA >>>> http://www.okstudio.com.au > > >>>> >>>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of >>>> DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. >>>> Just data. Click to get it now. >>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>>> sql...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 >>> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just >>> data. Click to get it now. >>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>> sql...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >> >> >> >> -- >> George >> AUSTRALIA >> http://www.okstudio.com.au >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------- >> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 >> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just >> data. Click to get it now. >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> _______________________________________________ >> sql-ledger-users mailing list >> sql...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users |
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From: <la...@cl...> - 2007-04-19 16:38:10
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So would creating a sales invoice and instead of having it recorded into the AR account but having it recorded into a liability g.v. account be more appropriate? So the question is really g.v. should be a liability account (a question will probably be confirmed by my accountant)? Which make more sense anyway...the part "no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed" should all depends on if you are giving away a gift voucher or have sold a gift voucher? My client do both of that in her business...Tim > I agree that there is no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed (which, > from a business standpoint is hopefully never). However, vouchers, > coupons, options, etc. are liabilities against the business (this is > why they usually come with expiration dates) and should be recorded > as such. > > Roy > > On 19-Apr-2007, at 00:30, David J wrote: > >> George >> You may care to check this ATO document. >> http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/42952.htm >> (Sorry I can't hyperlink from this webmail. Pls cut 'n >> paste.) >> Perhaps you don't "sell" vouchers, but rather "issue" them. >> Perhaps the issue of a voucher should NOT be invoiced at >> all. >> Invoice only when voucher redeemed. >> A voucher is a lot like a promissory note or an IOU, rather >> than a sale. >> So the outstanding vouchers are like mini-loans from your >> customers. >> GST only when voucher redeemed for goods/services. >> YMMV in accordance with local conditions. >> As always, check with your accountant. >> - David J >> >> >>> On Thursday 19 April 2007, la...@cl... wrote: >>>> 1. create gift voucher in part. >>>> 2. create sales invoice to sell a gift voucher to john >>>> smith (money to your bank). >>>> 3. create an negative ar transaction (money to your >>>> credit note or gift voucher account) for john smith. >>> >>> What would you do with taxes here? >>> >>>> 4. john smith's account should now reflect that he has a >>> credit. > >>>> the credit note or gift voucher account should help you >>>> track your gift vouchers. >>>> >>>> would this do it? >>> >>>>> Anybody out there selling gift vouchers? If so how do >>>>> you do it? How do you >>>>> track them? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> George >>>>> AUSTRALIA >>>>> http://www.okstudio.com.au >> >> >>>>> >>>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of >>>>> DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. >>>>> Just data. Click to get it now. >>>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>>>> sql...@li... >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >>>> >>>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 >>>> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just >>>> data. Click to get it now. >>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>>> sql...@li... >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> George >>> AUSTRALIA >>> http://www.okstudio.com.au >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 >>> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just >>> data. Click to get it now. >>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>> sql...@li... >>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> _______________________________________________ >> sql-ledger-users mailing list >> sql...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > |
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From: Roy N. <RNi...@NB...> - 2007-04-19 23:07:43
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Your accountant may very well tell you that you are not "selling" a voucher - a sale only takes place when a good or service is contracted or delivered to the customer - but actually accepting a pre-payment for a good or service to be sold/delivered at some future date. It's a similar situation to when a borrows money or sells bonds (save there are no usage (interest) charges). You have the money in your bank account, but the holder of the debt (gift voucher) can redeem it at their will (within the terms of the voucher, bond, etc.) ... if is for this reason that you need to record it as a liability. Roy On 19-Apr-2007, at 13:38, la...@cl... wrote: > So would creating a sales invoice and instead of having it recorded > into > the AR account but having it recorded into a liability g.v. account be > more appropriate? So the question is really g.v. should be a liability > account (a question will probably be confirmed by my accountant)? > Which > make more sense anyway...the part "no 'sale' until a voucher is > redeemed" > should all depends on if you are giving away a gift voucher or have > sold a > gift voucher? My client do both of that in her business...Tim > >> I agree that there is no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed (which, >> from a business standpoint is hopefully never). However, vouchers, >> coupons, options, etc. are liabilities against the business (this is >> why they usually come with expiration dates) and should be recorded >> as such. >> >> Roy >> >> On 19-Apr-2007, at 00:30, David J wrote: >> >>> George >>> You may care to check this ATO document. >>> http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/42952.htm >>> (Sorry I can't hyperlink from this webmail. Pls cut 'n >>> paste.) >>> Perhaps you don't "sell" vouchers, but rather "issue" them. >>> Perhaps the issue of a voucher should NOT be invoiced at >>> all. >>> Invoice only when voucher redeemed. >>> A voucher is a lot like a promissory note or an IOU, rather >>> than a sale. >>> So the outstanding vouchers are like mini-loans from your >>> customers. >>> GST only when voucher redeemed for goods/services. >>> YMMV in accordance with local conditions. >>> As always, check with your accountant. >>> - David J >>> >>> >>>> On Thursday 19 April 2007, la...@cl... wrote: >>>>> 1. create gift voucher in part. >>>>> 2. create sales invoice to sell a gift voucher to john >>>>> smith (money to your bank). >>>>> 3. create an negative ar transaction (money to your >>>>> credit note or gift voucher account) for john smith. >>>> >>>> What would you do with taxes here? >>>> >>>>> 4. john smith's account should now reflect that he has a >>>> credit. > >>>>> the credit note or gift voucher account should help you >>>>> track your gift vouchers. >>>>> >>>>> would this do it? >>>> >>>>>> Anybody out there selling gift vouchers? If so how do >>>>>> you do it? How do you >>>>>> track them? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> George >>>>>> AUSTRALIA >>>>>> http://www.okstudio.com.au >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>>>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of >>>>>> DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. >>>>>> Just data. Click to get it now. >>>>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>>>>> sql...@li... >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >>>>> >>>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 >>>>> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just >>>>> data. Click to get it now. >>>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>>>> sql...@li... >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> George >>>> AUSTRALIA >>>> http://www.okstudio.com.au >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 >>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 >>>> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just >>>> data. Click to get it now. >>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>>> sql...@li... >>>> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> -- >>> --- >>> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >>> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >>> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> sql-ledger-users mailing list >>> sql...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> _______________________________________________ >> sql-ledger-users mailing list >> sql...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >> > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users |
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From: George O. <geo...@ya...> - 2007-04-20 00:30:49
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On Friday 20 April 2007, Roy Nicholl wrote: > I agree that there is no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed (which, > from a business standpoint is hopefully never). However, vouchers, > coupons, options, etc. are liabilities against the business (this is > why they usually come with expiration dates) and should be recorded > as such. So could they be treated as orders then? When a customer purchases a product and redeems a voucher I could make an invoice out of the order. I could also use the order number to track them. It would not be too hard to customize the order template to print different heading for gift voucher receipts. > Roy > > On 19-Apr-2007, at 00:30, David J wrote: > > George > > You may care to check this ATO document. > > http://www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/42952.htm > > (Sorry I can't hyperlink from this webmail. Pls cut 'n > > paste.) > > Perhaps you don't "sell" vouchers, but rather "issue" them. > > Perhaps the issue of a voucher should NOT be invoiced at > > all. > > Invoice only when voucher redeemed. > > A voucher is a lot like a promissory note or an IOU, rather > > than a sale. > > So the outstanding vouchers are like mini-loans from your > > customers. > > GST only when voucher redeemed for goods/services. > > YMMV in accordance with local conditions. > > As always, check with your accountant. > > - David J > > > >> On Thursday 19 April 2007, la...@cl... wrote: > >>> 1. create gift voucher in part. > >>> 2. create sales invoice to sell a gift voucher to john > >>> smith (money to your bank). > >>> 3. create an negative ar transaction (money to your > >>> credit note or gift voucher account) for john smith. > >> > >> What would you do with taxes here? > >> > >>> 4. john smith's account should now reflect that he has a > >> > >> credit. > > >> > >>> the credit note or gift voucher account should help you > >>> track your gift vouchers. > >>> > >>> would this do it? > >>> > >>>> Anybody out there selling gift vouchers? If so how do > >>>> you do it? How do you > >>>> track them? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> George > >>>> AUSTRALIA > >>>> http://www.okstudio.com.au > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 > >>>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of > >>>> DB2 express and take control of your XML. No limits. > >>>> Just data. Click to get it now. > >>>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> sql-ledger-users mailing list > >>>> sql...@li... > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> > >>> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 > >>> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 > >>> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just > >>> data. Click to get it now. > >>> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> sql-ledger-users mailing list > >>> sql...@li... > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > >> -- > >> George > >> AUSTRALIA > >> http://www.okstudio.com.au > >> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- > >> --------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 > >> Express Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 > >> express and take control of your XML. No limits. Just > >> data. Click to get it now. > >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sql-ledger-users mailing list > >> sql...@li... > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > sql-ledger-users mailing list > > sql...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users -- George AUSTRALIA http://www.okstudio.com.au |
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From: Tony F. <to...@sy...> - 2007-04-20 02:09:11
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On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 10:30 +1000, George Osvald wrote: > On Friday 20 April 2007, Roy Nicholl wrote: > > I agree that there is no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed (which, > > from a business standpoint is hopefully never). However, vouchers, > > coupons, options, etc. are liabilities against the business (this is > > why they usually come with expiration dates) and should be recorded > > as such. > > So could they be treated as orders then? When a customer purchases a product > and redeems a voucher I could make an invoice out of the order. I could also > use the order number to track them. It would not be too hard to customize the > order template to print different heading for gift voucher receipts. Here's what I would do: Create a liability account in you CoA "Outstanding Vouchers" and mark it AR_paid and IC_income. Create a service called "voucher" with the sell price set to te face value of the voucher and income account set to "Outstanding Vouchers" (the IC_income link should make it show up in the list of "Income" accounts even though it is actually a liability account.) and uncheck any sales taxes. If a customer buys a voucher make a sales invoice for a voucher and accept payment however you want. If you give away a/some voucher(s) make a sales invoice and pay it from either an equity account or an expense account like "Promotions Expense". This is definitely a question for your accountant to answer. When a customer redeems a voucher you will be able to accept it as payment of a regular sales invoice by choosing the "Outstanding Vouchers" account as the payment account. It will be in the list because of the AR_paid link. If you want to know the amount of vouchers you have outstanding you just have to look at the balance of the "Outstanding Vouchers" account. If your vouchers have an expiry once they are expired you can either debit "Outstanding Vouchers" and credit "Unused Voucher Income" (vouchers that were bought but not used) or debit "Outstanding Vouchers" and credit "Promotions Expense" (giveaways). -- Tony Fraser to...@sy... Sybaspace Internet Solutions System Administrator phone: (250) 246-5368 fax: (250) 246-5398 |
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From: George O. <geo...@ya...> - 2007-04-23 00:07:52
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On Friday 20 April 2007, Tony Fraser wrote: > On Fri, 2007-04-20 at 10:30 +1000, George Osvald wrote: > > On Friday 20 April 2007, Roy Nicholl wrote: > > > I agree that there is no 'sale' until a voucher is redeemed (which, > > > from a business standpoint is hopefully never). However, vouchers, > > > coupons, options, etc. are liabilities against the business (this is > > > why they usually come with expiration dates) and should be recorded > > > as such. > > > > So could they be treated as orders then? When a customer purchases a > > product and redeems a voucher I could make an invoice out of the order. I > > could also use the order number to track them. It would not be too hard > > to customize the order template to print different heading for gift > > voucher receipts. > > Here's what I would do: > > Create a liability account in you CoA "Outstanding Vouchers" and mark it > AR_paid and IC_income. > > Create a service called "voucher" with the sell price set to te face > value of the voucher and income account set to "Outstanding > Vouchers" (the IC_income link should make it show up in the list of > "Income" accounts even though it is actually a liability account.) and > uncheck any sales taxes. > > If a customer buys a voucher make a sales invoice for a voucher and > accept payment however you want. By law I have to charge GST on all services I provide/sell. With every service above $50 I also have to provide tax invoice that states amount of GST charged. I can not create service and uncheck taxes. Only ways I can see at the moment are really orders or some kind of pre-payments into existing accounts. Making a GL transaction at the time of purchase would be too complicated. > If you give away a/some voucher(s) make a sales invoice and pay it from > either an equity account or an expense account like "Promotions > Expense". This is definitely a question for your accountant to answer. > > When a customer redeems a voucher you will be able to accept it as > payment of a regular sales invoice by choosing the "Outstanding > Vouchers" account as the payment account. It will be in the list because > of the AR_paid link. > > If you want to know the amount of vouchers you have outstanding you just > have to look at the balance of the "Outstanding Vouchers" account. > > If your vouchers have an expiry once they are expired you can either > debit "Outstanding Vouchers" and credit "Unused Voucher > Income" (vouchers that were bought but not used) or debit "Outstanding > Vouchers" and credit "Promotions Expense" (giveaways). -- George AUSTRALIA http://www.okstudio.com.au |
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From: Ashley J G. <agi...@pu...> - 2007-04-23 03:49:02
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On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, George Osvald wrote: > By law I have to charge GST on all services I provide/sell. With every > service above $50 I also have to provide tax invoice that states amount of > GST charged. I can not create service and uncheck taxes. Only ways I can > see at the moment are really orders or some kind of pre-payments into > existing accounts. Making a GL transaction at the time of purchase would be > too complicated. Hi George, As I understand it the ATO requires that you do not account for (charge) GST on vouchers (per the link someone provided earlier, they are not to be accounted for in your acticity statement). You only apply a GST component to the actual supply made when the customer redeems the voucher. IE, the voucher "sale" should not have any gst on it. The sale where they get product/service and pay for it using the voucher should include gst - where applicable. The way I see it, this means that making the voucher a gst-free product makes sense, that way the gst is not accounted for at time of voucher sale, but processing works normally when the voucher is redeemed, by charging gst on the products and services per normal. Standard disclaimers apply, IANACPA, see your accountant, etc etc :-) The actual ruling on vouchers is here if you need more detailed information: http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid='DGS/GST2000D22/NAT/ATO/fpF4'&PiT=99991231235958 -- Regards, Ashley J Gittins web: http://www.purple.dropbear.id.au jabber: agi...@pu... |
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From: Paul T. <pt...@wa...> - 2007-04-23 05:17:49
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Ashley J Gittins wrote: > On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, George Osvald wrote: > > The actual ruling on vouchers is here if you need more detailed information: > http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid='DGS/GST2000D22/NAT/ATO/fpF4'&PiT=99991231235958 > > Apart from legal and accounting issues, I suppose it is safe to say that a gift-voucher is (for the customer) as good as cash as for payment purposes. Only cash can be spent anywhere, where the gift-voucher is on a per ship or per sales-chain basis. Why anybody would want to limit the choices of the friend receiving the gift is beyond me. Rational would be to give cash. That being said, we humans are social and not rational beings, so exchanging a 50 dollar bill for a 50 dollar gift certificate does happen in the real world. Economically speaking (GST or VAT) there is NO value added in the transaction as I see it. So I see no reason for charging VAT. That would be just as foolish as charging VAT when I change my tenner in loose change for the vending machine. The VAT transaction is the vending machine, and there the sale is VAT included. Hopes this clarifies matters. Paul |
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From: Ashley J G. <agi...@pu...> - 2007-04-23 06:05:14
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On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, Paul Tammes wrote: > So I see no reason for charging VAT. That would be just as foolish as > charging VAT when I change my tenner in loose change for the vending > machine. The VAT transaction is the vending machine, and there the sale > is VAT included. I think you'll find that reason has no part to play in applying tax rulings, and nobody wins an argument with the tax-man :-) But your argument is sound and basically explains why the ruling is as it is (furthermore in Oz financial services are (generally speaking) not taxed with the GST, and one could argue that a voucher is a financial service since it is really an offer of credit). -- Regards, Ashley J Gittins web: http://www.purple.dropbear.id.au jabber: agi...@pu... |
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From: George O. <geo...@ya...> - 2007-04-23 14:41:31
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On Monday 23 April 2007, Paul Tammes wrote: > Ashley J Gittins wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, George Osvald wrote: > > > > The actual ruling on vouchers is here if you need more detailed > > information: > > http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid='DGS/GST2000D22/NAT/ATO/fpF4' > >&PiT=99991231235958 > > Apart from legal and accounting issues, I suppose it is safe to say that > a gift-voucher is (for the customer) as good as cash as for payment > purposes. Only cash can be spent anywhere, where the gift-voucher is on > a per ship or per sales-chain basis. > Why anybody would want to limit the choices of the friend receiving the > gift is beyond me. Rational would be to give cash. > > That being said, we humans are social and not rational beings, so > exchanging a 50 dollar bill for a 50 dollar gift certificate does happen > in the real world. Economically speaking (GST or VAT) there is NO value > added in the transaction as I see it. > So I see no reason for charging VAT. That would be just as foolish as > charging VAT when I change my tenner in loose change for the vending > machine. The VAT transaction is the vending machine, and there the sale > is VAT included. > > Hopes this clarifies matters. Actually yes that is a pretty good explanation/comparison. Thank you. Now I have to figure out how to track them. I will be able to see how much of the gift vouchers' value has been redeemed but how do I know which ones? I could search for the voucher number presented to my by the cutomer and then either re-post the original invoice with a note attached to it (no good) or I could create a new invoice with the same number as the voucher number for the goods purchased. Actually could I sell vouchers as normal tax invoices (with GST) and then if they are redeemed create a new invoice with the same number and a negative amount to the value of the voucher? (plus anything extra) If they are not redeemed then I would simply keep them as sales. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users -- George AUSTRALIA http://www.okstudio.com.au |
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From: Roy N. <RNi...@NB...> - 2007-04-23 15:20:58
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George, As I indicated in my post on Friday, and others expressed much more eloquently, gift cards/vouchers and the like are simply a means of 'capturing' a future sale ... you trade a voucher for a $20 bill. This puts the $20 bill in your bank account, but also puts a liability against your books as the voucher/gift card can be redeemed at some future point in exchange for goods or services provided by the business. If you want, you can think of the voucher as a contract for the future delivery of a good or service ... but it is not a sale. There is no sale until the voucher is redeemed ... so no GST/HST (or any other VAT) to be remitted. If you are issuing vouchers that have an expiration, then there will be some additional accounting to remove the liability when the voucher expires (mechanically this is quite similar to what happens to a corporation when stock options expire), but there will not be any VAT to remit in this instance. Roy On 23-Apr-2007, at 11:41, George Osvald wrote: > On Monday 23 April 2007, Paul Tammes wrote: >> Ashley J Gittins wrote: >>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, George Osvald wrote: >>> >>> The actual ruling on vouchers is here if you need more detailed >>> information: >>> http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid='DGS/GST2000D22/NAT/ >>> ATO/fpF4' >>> &PiT=99991231235958 >> >> Apart from legal and accounting issues, I suppose it is safe to >> say that >> a gift-voucher is (for the customer) as good as cash as for payment >> purposes. Only cash can be spent anywhere, where the gift-voucher >> is on >> a per ship or per sales-chain basis. >> Why anybody would want to limit the choices of the friend >> receiving the >> gift is beyond me. Rational would be to give cash. >> >> That being said, we humans are social and not rational beings, so >> exchanging a 50 dollar bill for a 50 dollar gift certificate does >> happen >> in the real world. Economically speaking (GST or VAT) there is NO >> value >> added in the transaction as I see it. >> So I see no reason for charging VAT. That would be just as foolish as >> charging VAT when I change my tenner in loose change for the vending >> machine. The VAT transaction is the vending machine, and there the >> sale >> is VAT included. >> >> Hopes this clarifies matters. > > Actually yes that is a pretty good explanation/comparison. Thank > you. Now I > have to figure out how to track them. I will be able to see how > much of the > gift vouchers' value has been redeemed but how do I know which > ones? I could > search for the voucher number presented to my by the cutomer and > then either > re-post the original invoice with a note attached to it (no good) > or I could > create a new invoice with the same number as the voucher number for > the goods > purchased. > Actually could I sell vouchers as normal tax invoices (with GST) > and then if > they are redeemed create a new invoice with the same number and a > negative > amount to the value of the voucher? (plus anything extra) If they > are not > redeemed then I would simply keep them as sales. > >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> _______________________________________________ >> sql-ledger-users mailing list >> sql...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > > -- > George > AUSTRALIA > http://www.okstudio.com.au > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users |
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From: George O. <geo...@ya...> - 2007-04-23 23:28:52
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On Tuesday 24 April 2007, Roy Nicholl wrote: > George, > > As I indicated in my post on Friday, and others expressed much more > eloquently, gift cards/vouchers and the like are simply a means of > 'capturing' a future sale ... you trade a voucher for a $20 bill. > This puts the $20 bill in your bank account, but also puts a > liability against your books as the voucher/gift card can be redeemed > at some future point in exchange for goods or services provided by > the business. If you want, you can think of the voucher as a > contract for the future delivery of a good or service ... but it is > not a sale. > > There is no sale until the voucher is redeemed ... so no GST/HST (or > any other VAT) to be remitted. If you are issuing vouchers that > have an expiration, then there will be some additional accounting to > remove the liability when the voucher expires (mechanically this is > quite similar to what happens to a corporation when stock options > expire), but there will not be any VAT to remit in this instance. > > Roy > > On 23-Apr-2007, at 11:41, George Osvald wrote: > > On Monday 23 April 2007, Paul Tammes wrote: > >> Ashley J Gittins wrote: > >>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, George Osvald wrote: > >>> > >>> The actual ruling on vouchers is here if you need more detailed > >>> information: > >>> http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid='DGS/GST2000D22/NAT/ > >>> ATO/fpF4' > >>> &PiT=99991231235958 > >> > >> Apart from legal and accounting issues, I suppose it is safe to > >> say that > >> a gift-voucher is (for the customer) as good as cash as for payment > >> purposes. Only cash can be spent anywhere, where the gift-voucher > >> is on > >> a per ship or per sales-chain basis. > >> Why anybody would want to limit the choices of the friend > >> receiving the > >> gift is beyond me. Rational would be to give cash. > >> > >> That being said, we humans are social and not rational beings, so > >> exchanging a 50 dollar bill for a 50 dollar gift certificate does > >> happen > >> in the real world. Economically speaking (GST or VAT) there is NO > >> value > >> added in the transaction as I see it. > >> So I see no reason for charging VAT. That would be just as foolish as > >> charging VAT when I change my tenner in loose change for the vending > >> machine. The VAT transaction is the vending machine, and there the > >> sale > >> is VAT included. > >> > >> Hopes this clarifies matters. > > > > Actually yes that is a pretty good explanation/comparison. Thank > > you. Now I > > have to figure out how to track them. I will be able to see how > > much of the > > gift vouchers' value has been redeemed but how do I know which > > ones? I could > > search for the voucher number presented to my by the cutomer and > > then either > > re-post the original invoice with a note attached to it (no good) > > or I could > > create a new invoice with the same number as the voucher number for > > the goods > > purchased. > > Actually could I sell vouchers as normal tax invoices (with GST) > > and then if > > they are redeemed create a new invoice with the same number and a > > negative > > amount to the value of the voucher? (plus anything extra) If they > > are not > > redeemed then I would simply keep them as sales. I understand this now Roy but I am still looking for an easy way how to track individual vouchers. By looking at a liability account I will see how much has been given away/redeemed. I still need to know which voucher has been redeemed. At this stage giving the sale the same invoice number as the voucher is probably the way. I would have to close all vouchers within a financial year though. > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> ---- > >> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > >> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > >> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > >> _______________________________________________ > >> sql-ledger-users mailing list > >> sql...@li... > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > > -- > > George > > AUSTRALIA > > http://www.okstudio.com.au > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > > _______________________________________________ > > sql-ledger-users mailing list > > sql...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ > _______________________________________________ > sql-ledger-users mailing list > sql...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users -- George AUSTRALIA http://www.okstudio.com.au |
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From: Hart N. <hn...@bi...> - 2007-04-24 15:00:14
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>On Tuesday 24 April 2007, Roy Nicholl wrote: >> George, >> >> As I indicated in my post on Friday, and others expressed much more >> eloquently, gift cards/vouchers and the like are simply a means of >> 'capturing' a future sale ... you trade a voucher for a $20 bill. >> This puts the $20 bill in your bank account, but also puts a >> liability against your books as the voucher/gift card can be redeemed >> at some future point in exchange for goods or services provided by >> the business. If you want, you can think of the voucher as a >> contract for the future delivery of a good or service ... but it is >> not a sale. >> >> There is no sale until the voucher is redeemed ... so no GST/HST (or >> any other VAT) to be remitted. If you are issuing vouchers that >> have an expiration, then there will be some additional accounting to >> remove the liability when the voucher expires (mechanically this is >> quite similar to what happens to a corporation when stock options > > expire), but there will not be any VAT to remit in this instance. Transferring un-redeemed G.V.s from the liability account to income may (will) attract tax. (The taxman always wants his due.) An aside on the issues of G.V.s and tracking same. You may want to track outside of the accounting system redemption may range over fiscal years and become difficult to track. A simple method is to have a serially numbered multi-part form (duplicate or triplicate) with a stiffer, fancier first sheet for the "amount" and a validating name or initial (it is "cash") to be added at the time of sale with the purchaser filling in the "name" and "from"at their leisure. A second copy with or w/o the sales receipt number on it is added to the day's cash receipts (establishing an audit trail ) the duplicate G.V.is for tracking and anti-fraud -alteration purposes. An alternative G.V.is to use read-made selected denomination certificates, but I prefer the former for several reasons (can discuss offline) Hope this helps. Cheers, Hart North > > >> Roy >> >> On 23-Apr-2007, at 11:41, George Osvald wrote: >> > On Monday 23 April 2007, Paul Tammes wrote: >> >> Ashley J Gittins wrote: >> >>> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007, George Osvald wrote: >> >>> >> >>> The actual ruling on vouchers is here if you need more detailed >> >>> information: >> >>> http://law.ato.gov.au/atolaw/view.htm?locid='DGS/GST2000D22/NAT/ >> >>> ATO/fpF4' >> >>> &PiT=99991231235958 >> >> >> >> Apart from legal and accounting issues, I suppose it is safe to >> >> say that >> >> a gift-voucher is (for the customer) as good as cash as for payment >> >> purposes. Only cash can be spent anywhere, where the gift-voucher >> >> is on >> >> a per ship or per sales-chain basis. >> >> Why anybody would want to limit the choices of the friend >> >> receiving the >> >> gift is beyond me. Rational would be to give cash. >> >> >> >> That being said, we humans are social and not rational beings, so >> >> exchanging a 50 dollar bill for a 50 dollar gift certificate does >> >> happen >> >> in the real world. Economically speaking (GST or VAT) there is NO >> >> value >> >> added in the transaction as I see it. >> >> So I see no reason for charging VAT. That would be just as foolish as >> >> charging VAT when I change my tenner in loose change for the vending >> >> machine. The VAT transaction is the vending machine, and there the >> >> sale >> >> is VAT included. >> >> >> >> Hopes this clarifies matters. >> > >> > Actually yes that is a pretty good explanation/comparison. Thank >> > you. Now I >> > have to figure out how to track them. I will be able to see how >> > much of the >> > gift vouchers' value has been redeemed but how do I know which >> > ones? I could >> > search for the voucher number presented to my by the cutomer and >> > then either >> > re-post the original invoice with a note attached to it (no good) >> > or I could >> > create a new invoice with the same number as the voucher number for >> > the goods >> > purchased. >> > Actually could I sell vouchers as normal tax invoices (with GST) > > > and then if >> > they are redeemed create a new invoice with the same number and a >> > negative >> > amount to the value of the voucher? (plus anything extra) If they >> > are not >> > redeemed then I would simply keep them as sales. > >I understand this now Roy but I am still looking for an easy way how to track >individual vouchers. By looking at a liability account I will see how much >has been given away/redeemed. I still need to know which voucher has been >redeemed. At this stage giving the sale the same invoice number as the >voucher is probably the way. I would have to close all vouchers within a >financial year though. > > >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> ---- >> >> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >> >> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >> >> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> sql-ledger-users mailing list >> >> sql...@li... >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >> > >> > -- >> > George >> > AUSTRALIA >> > http://www.okstudio.com.au >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > --- >> > This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >> > Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >> > control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> > http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > sql-ledger-users mailing list >> > sql...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >> Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >> control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >> http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >> _______________________________________________ >> sql-ledger-users mailing list >> sql...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users > > > >-- >George >AUSTRALIA >http://www.okstudio.com.au > >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.net email is sponsored by DB2 Express >Download DB2 Express C - the FREE version of DB2 express and take >control of your XML. No limits. Just data. Click to get it now. >http://sourceforge.net/powerbar/db2/ >_______________________________________________ >sql-ledger-users mailing list >sql...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/sql-ledger-users -- BIDS a Division of Tendering Publications Limited PO Box 11, Station A Fredericton, NB E3B 4Y2 http://www.bids.ca/ Ph: (506) 459-1820 Fax: (506) 457-7113 Toll free throughout North America (800) 397-0393 |
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From: Roy N. <RNi...@NB...> - 2007-04-24 16:52:57
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I agree ... making you own 'money' is definitely a better idea than gift vouchers ... for those in Canada, look no further than Canadian Tire - the old Scot on the store's money is probably just as recognised as any of the PMs on the National currency. Issuing this type of 'currency' is similar to issuing a debt note (i.e. bonds), but without the interest. You record the redemption value (face value) of the issued certificates (bills) as a liability against the company. As this money is taken out of circulation, you retire the dept against the company (if you choose not to re- circulate the bills/certificates). Roy > > Transferring un-redeemed G.V.s from the liability account to income > may (will) attract tax. (The taxman always wants his due.) > > An aside on the issues of G.V.s and tracking same. You may want to > track outside of the accounting system redemption may range over > fiscal years and become difficult to track. A simple method is to > have a serially numbered multi-part form (duplicate or triplicate) > with a stiffer, fancier first sheet for the "amount" and a validating > name or initial (it is "cash") to be added at the time of sale with > the purchaser filling in the "name" and "from"at their leisure. A > second copy with or w/o the sales receipt number on it is added to > the day's cash receipts (establishing an audit trail ) the duplicate > G.V.is for tracking and anti-fraud -alteration purposes. > > An alternative G.V.is to use read-made selected denomination > certificates, but I prefer the former for several reasons (can > discuss offline) > > Hope this helps. > > Cheers, > |
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