solipsis-tech — Technical discussions

[Solipsis-tech] Jonathan Henderson

[Jonathan H. <csh...@ya...>]

http://sahapaiboon.com/rf/qs9eas70oei1qvirw5f0bt9=actn4z1m83jl1s

[Solipsis-tech] New mailing list

[KELLER J. RD-MAPS-I. <joa...@fr...>]

The mailing lists
sol...@li...
sol...@li...
are not in use anymore.

The new mailing list for solipsis developers is
sol...@li...

To suscribe to the new mailing list you should go there:
http://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/solipsis-tech




To unsuscribe from the old mailing lists:=20
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/solipsis-tech
http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/solipsis-users

[Solipsis-tech] request for comments on Voronoi-based Overlay Network

[Shun-Yun H. <sy...@ya...>]

Hello Joaquin & Gwendal,

how are you recently? :)

I notice that there had been steady developments on Solipsis.. so where are 
you guys at now?

I've just finished my master thesis, and I'm wondering if you would be 
willing to take a look and give me some comments/feedbacks? (anything would 
be fine. :)

During this time I've written a prototype implementation (some video here: 
http://163.13.127.77/~syhu/VON/video/, some codecs need to be installed 
first, which is located in the same directory), and I've added dynamic 
adjustment to AOI-radius to avoid overloading within AOI. Effects of packet 
loss on consistency is also studied.

the PDF of my thesis can be found here: 
http://163.13.127.77/~syhu/VON/doc/thesis.zip

I'd appreciate very much if you could give me some comments or if you've any 
questions,  please also do let me know.

Best regards,

Shun-Yun



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS" <joa...@rd...>
To: "Shun-Yun Hu" <sy...@ya...>; "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS" 
<gwe...@rd...>
Cc: "Liao Guan-Ming" <gm...@ms...>; 
<sol...@li...>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 6:45 PM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


As Solipsis can scale to billions of entities(*),
Our goal is to make Solipsis universal:
1. Open Source reference implementation http://solipsis.netofpeers.net/
2. IETF standardization is in our plans

We envision an à la metaverse (cf Neal Stephenson - Snowcrash) virtual 
universe.

-- Joaquin

(*) actual limitation is 2^256 (~ 1e77) entities,
to compare, there is ~4e79 atoms in the whole universe
(source http://www.sunspot.noao.edu/sunspot/pr/answerbook/universe.html )

[Solipsis-tech] RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)

[KELLER J. FTRD/DMI/I. <joa...@rd...>]

As Solipsis can scale to billions of entities(*),=20
Our goal is to make Solipsis universal:
1. Open Source reference implementation http://solipsis.netofpeers.net/
2. IETF standardization is in our plans

We envision an =E0 la metaverse (cf Neal Stephenson - Snowcrash) virtual =
universe.

-- Joaquin

(*) actual limitation is 2^256 (~ 1e77) entities,
to compare, there is ~4e79 atoms in the whole universe=20
(source http://www.sunspot.noao.edu/sunspot/pr/answerbook/universe.html =
)

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]=20
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 16 juin 2004 16:45
=C0 : SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS; KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc : Liao Guan-Ming; sol...@li...
Objet : Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)



Hello Joaquin and Gwendal,

Thanks for the encouragment! I have to say we're only starters on =
learning
how to do research, it's very encouraging for us to receive positive
feedback from experienced researchers like you. :)

We'd be happy if you would consider implementing the voronoi-based =
method,
and sure we'll keep you informed of the progress.

right now we're implementing it using C++ comforming to the HLA-RTI =
standard
(IEEE 1516), I'm not sure if you're familiar with the interface. What =
we've
found is that RTI is quite rigid (as it was designed for military
simulation, which could require very strict and precise sychronization &
time management), so there's some learning involved. However, our =
original
idea was that, because it's already an open standard, so by comforming =
to it
we might make it easier for people to develop applications on top of it =
(if
they can learn how to use RTI). We're going to test the implemention in =
the
next few weeks, hopefully there'll be some simulation results.

Our original intent was to develop ASCEND (Adaptive Scalable Cooperative
Environment for Networked Dimension) as a set of API/tools that people =
could
develop virtual environemtns with.. an open source platform. I'm =
wondering
if somehow we could identify some common goals and have some merge of =
the
two projects? :)

As for Solipsis, I'm curious as to what do you think the role of =
Solipsis
is.. and of its future. I understand right now you're developing a =
text-chat
client program. But is Solipsis a particular program.. or something =
bigger?
such as a set of protocols, algorithm, platform, API? Do you think of
Solipsis as HTTP, or as a particular virtual universe (or many?)

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


----- Original Message -----=20
From: "KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS" =
<joa...@rd...>
To: "Shun-Yun Hu" <sy...@ya...>; "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS"
<gwe...@rd...>
Cc: "? ??" <gm...@ms...>; =
<sol...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis-tech] Re: [Solipsis] some questions about =
Solipsis
(from Taiwan)


Shun-Yun, Guan-Ming,
We feel (Gwendal and I) that your algorithm should be better than ours.
Some issues may remain but I believe
that in a near future your algorithm will be ready to run.
We will be happy to implement it (or help to implement it) in Solipsis.
So please keep us informed on the progress of your work.

Have fun,
-- Joaquin

[Solipsis-tech] Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)

[Shun-Yun H. <sy...@ya...>]

Hello Joaquin and Gwendal,

Thanks for the encouragment! I have to say we're only starters on learning
how to do research, it's very encouraging for us to receive positive
feedback from experienced researchers like you. :)

We'd be happy if you would consider implementing the voronoi-based method,
and sure we'll keep you informed of the progress.

right now we're implementing it using C++ comforming to the HLA-RTI standard
(IEEE 1516), I'm not sure if you're familiar with the interface. What we've
found is that RTI is quite rigid (as it was designed for military
simulation, which could require very strict and precise sychronization &
time management), so there's some learning involved. However, our original
idea was that, because it's already an open standard, so by comforming to it
we might make it easier for people to develop applications on top of it (if
they can learn how to use RTI). We're going to test the implemention in the
next few weeks, hopefully there'll be some simulation results.

Our original intent was to develop ASCEND (Adaptive Scalable Cooperative
Environment for Networked Dimension) as a set of API/tools that people could
develop virtual environemtns with.. an open source platform. I'm wondering
if somehow we could identify some common goals and have some merge of the
two projects? :)

As for Solipsis, I'm curious as to what do you think the role of Solipsis
is.. and of its future. I understand right now you're developing a text-chat
client program. But is Solipsis a particular program.. or something bigger?
such as a set of protocols, algorithm, platform, API? Do you think of
Solipsis as HTTP, or as a particular virtual universe (or many?)

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS" <joa...@rd...>
To: "Shun-Yun Hu" <sy...@ya...>; "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS"
<gwe...@rd...>
Cc: "? ??" <gm...@ms...>; <sol...@li...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 11:44 PM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis-tech] Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis
(from Taiwan)


Shun-Yun, Guan-Ming,
We feel (Gwendal and I) that your algorithm should be better than ours.
Some issues may remain but I believe
that in a near future your algorithm will be ready to run.
We will be happy to implement it (or help to implement it) in Solipsis.
So please keep us informed on the progress of your work.

Have fun,
-- Joaquin

RE : [Solipsis-tech] Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)

[KELLER J. FTRD/DMI/I. <joa...@rd...>]

Shun-Yun, Guan-Ming,
We feel (Gwendal and I) that your algorithm should be better than ours.
Some issues may remain but I believe
that in a near future your algorithm will be ready to run.
We will be happy to implement it (or help to implement it) in Solipsis.
So please keep us informed on the progress of your work.

Have fun,
-- Joaquin
=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De : sol...@li... =
[mailto:sol...@li...] De la part de =
Shun-Yun Hu
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 11 juin 2004 02:14
=C0 : SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc : ? ??; sol...@li...
Objet : [Solipsis-tech] Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis =
(from Taiwan)



Hello Gwendal,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it's true I left out the details of how to construct Voronoi, which =
I
probably should mention somewhat. Sorry about it and thanks for =
reminding
me. :) The reason is that Voronoi is something that has been studied =
quite
extensively since early 20th century, and there are numerous papers on =
its
construction & maintance.

To answer you briefly, the construction of Voronoi is basically done by
having the coordinates of a set of points (preferably those within your
AOI), then apply the algorithm (which we currently use Fortune's =
sweepline
algorithm. ref [1], but there are others. The general complexity for
constructing a Voronoi is O(log n). For maintainance, currently it's =
done by
a complete re-construction (so again, O(log n)), however, there are more
optimized algorithms that exist that could update a Voronoi dynamically
ref[2], and takes O(n).

So basically, right now for all join/move/leave, a node simply destory =
and
re-constructs its Voronoi, and is done in O(log n).

Once the Voronoi is constructed and put into some nice data structure,
further queries (such as who is a neighbor of who), can be done rather
efficiently in mostly a look-up fashion. I think the overlap check is =
done
in O(n).

However, from my perspective, the number of nodes that each computer =
needs
to maintain should be low (less than 50 for a very crowded session). So
algorithmatic complexity should not be the performance bottle-neck as =
these
calculations can be done fairly quickly. I'm more worry about the amount =
of
message exchange that's required for maintaining Local Awareness and =
Global
Connectivity. If you're interested in the details of Voronoi, I'd =
recommend
ref [3] and ref [4], which gives out fairly comprehesive treatement.

For GC maintainace, now I think there are two conceputally separate
situations that should be discussed, which we probably should give =
different
names to it. One is whether all nodes are connected to each other. (i.e. =
the
connectivity of the 'graph' as you mentioned), the other is whether the
connections made include your neighbors correctly (i.e. whether the =
Local
Awareness property is maintained correctly). I think it's worth making
distinctions between them, because it's possible to have a =
fully-connected
graph while each node does not necessarily maintain Local Awareness
properly. However, whether the full connectivity will ensure later =
recovery
for local awareness property, is something that should be include in the
discussion for any P2P architecture.

em.. just somet new thoughts.. :)

about the worse-case diagram in your Ph.D thesis, I'm not sure if I
understand it correctly. does the diagram indicate that there are nodes =
that
should be connected but are in fact not? (for example, entity ef is not
connected/discovered by e). and is it because the entity-query/discovery
process would stop before discovering ef?

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


Reference.
[1] FORTUNE, S. 1987. A sweepline algorithm for Voronoi diagrams
[2] GOWDA, I. G., KIRKPATRICK, D. G., LEE, D. T., AND NAAMAD, A. 1983.
Dynamic Voronoi diagrams. IEEE Trans. Infi Theory IT-29, 724-731.
[3] Aurenhammer, Franz. 1991.  Voronoi diagrams-a survey of a =
fundamental
geometric data structure. ACM Computing Survey Vol. 23. No. 3. p345 - =
405
[4] GUIBAS, L. J., AND STOLFI, J. 1985. Primitives for the manipulation =
of
general subdivisions and the computation of Voronoi diagrams. ACM Trans.
Graph. 4, 74-123.



----- Original Message -----=20
From: "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS" <gwe...@rd...>
To: <sy...@ya...>
Cc: <sol...@li...>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:25 AM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi,

[I include the solipsis list in this discussion]

Both projects (yours and Solipsis) relies on the same concept:
1- each entity is connected with all entities located within its Area Of
Interest (AOI)
2- each entity MAY be connected with some farther entities in order to
ensure Global Connectivity (GC). These far neighbors are chosen thanks =
to a
gemoetric rule (Voronoi for your project, an original and peculiar rule =
for
Solipsis)

Please find in the following some answers to your questions :

Q2 : the entities execute a "mutual neighbor discovery" algorithm every =
time
one of their neighbors move. Note that the AOI is not fixed. The number =
of
neighbors within the SOI is in a small range (typically a fixed value k =
+/-
20%).

Q3: we have to consider two proofs :
* are entities connected with all entities within AOI ? The answer is =
NO.
You may find an illustration of the identified worst case in the draft =
of my
PhD report (http://gwendal.simon.free.fr/Data/part1.pdf Figure 1.7 - =
page
17). Unfortunately, this report is written in french (due to a french =
law)
* does our rule ensure connectivity of the graph ? The answer is YES, if =
the
world is a torus and if the convex hull of the set of all entities is =
the
torus itself.

Q4: in current implementation, an entity stops the lookup of entity as =
soon
as it discovers another entity providing back the rule respect. It is
possible to optimize this algorithm in order to stop later.

I have now some questions about your paper. You don't give much details
about the construction and the maintaining of the Voronoi Diagram. What =
is
the algorithmic complexity of Voronoi re-building (when joining, when
moving, when leaving) ? What is the complexity of the "overlap-check"
algorithm (Voronoi regions overlapping AOI) ?

Best,

-- Gwendal


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 9 juin 2004 02:16
=C0 : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
Objet : Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi Joaquin,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I've attached a current working draft of =
the
paper to this e-mail.
It's still not camera-ready yet (due next monday), as I need to reduce =
it to
5 pages, and I'm planning to include a section of analysis on Solipsis =
:) (I
wasn't aware of Solipsis when I first submited)

If you've any questions/comments/feedback, please do let me know, I'd =
very
appreciate.

some additional questions, if you don't mind:

Q2. It's as I suspected, because checking seems to be necessary for =
those
outside of SOI as well. I'm wondering about the frequency of the check. =
Does
it happen every time someone in my SOI moves? or does it happen only =
between
a certain interval. (this has performance/consistency impact on the =
design)

Q3. What is the case where it might not work? would you mind to let me =
know
the special circumstance? If it's difficult to prove GC maintaince via
mathmatical analysis, maybe simulation is the way. :)  We're also =
currently
doing simulations only, as I can't think of a good way to analyze/prove
topology maintaince. Have you any simulation results yet for Solipsis? =
(as
in having 1000+ entities simulation)

Q4. I guess my question is, will the P2P topology be maintained in a
deterministic way, or will hosts actually be able to connected in =
various
ways due to chance circumstance. For example, when trying to maintain =
GC,
you might start searching for a host to connect in the 180 degree =
"missing
range". However, it certainly appears that it's possible for more than =
one
host to "quality" as the node to connect to (for example, you could =
connect
to the 1st host that satisifis the requirement, or the "best" host, =
define
as that could reduce the "missing range angel" the most).

I've asked my friend (whose name is Peter) about collaboration, and I =
think
both him and I are interested.. :) although personally I'm not that into
language localization stuff.. :) I do hope for some form of =
collaboration,
if possible, because to my amazement when I first saw your paper, I =
think
both of us have the same ultimate goal, which is to realize some =
WWW-like
virtual environment, pervasive and usable for all people. :) We even =
have
the same literary reference in our paper (e.g. Matrix & Snow Crash), and
this was before I read about your paper..

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


----- Original Message -----=20
From: KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
To: Shun-Yun Hu ; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc: sol...@li...
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:01 AM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi Shun-Yun,
I am happy to know there is a solipsis-like project elsewhere in the =
planet
:-) Sure I want to get your netgames 2004 paper ! Your questions:
Q1: A list of nodes, at least some nodes should be alive. To get that =
list
you can download it, (eg entities.met in the solipsis distrib) and/or =
while
using Solipsis you keep memory of met entities so the list is frequently
updated.
Q2: By now: Checking is done for all known entities (whether they are =
inside
or outside SOI); When entity A detects that an entity B has entered the =
SOI
of entity C, entity A sends out immediatly a message to entity C. If =
entity
B is outside SOI of entity C, nothing occurs.
Q3: So so. We have proved that in some tricky cases it will not work. =
But we
have strong hints that it should works most of the time (not proved).
Q4: I am not sure to fully understand this question. There are some
deterministic rules to choose entities that will restore or keep GC
(something like "take the nearest that fulfill GC property"). But all =
that
is probably not very predictable since unpredictable network delays have =
a
huge impact on rules like "take the first node you got and..."
Q5: The awareness radius, awareness area or SOI is enlarged or reduced =
in
order to keep the number of entities inside in a certain range (say =
between
9 and 15).

Have fun,
-- Joaquin


BTW: we plan to handle multiple (human) languages in Solipsis GUI, and =
our
first target (after english) is Chinese (simplified-mainland and/or
classical-taiwanese) we will be happy if you and your friend contribute =
on
that.
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]
Envoy=E9 : mardi 8 juin 2004 15:53
=C0 : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS Objet :
[Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)




Hello Joaquin and Gwendal,

I'm a CS graduate student in Taiwan, I've recently learned the very
interesting and wonderful works you guys are doing at France Telecom =
R&D, on
Solipsis.

I got very interested in your work because I've also been thinking about =
a
massive P2P Virtual Environment that exists on the Internet, and I've =
been
doing related studies and research since Sept. 2003, along with a good
friend of mine.

I've only come across Solipsis recently, and had read through both of =
your
papers. However, I've some questions raised in my mind. If you could =
answer
these questions for me I'd very appreciated. :)

Q1. what's the bootstrap procedure? (i.e. how does a node join Solipsis
initially? through a list of known nodes? or through a 'gateway server' =
of
some sort?)

Q2. when, and how frequent does an entity check for mutual neighbor
discovery? (every time when someone within the Sphere of Influence (SOI) =
is
moving? or at certain intervals? another question is about the range of
checking. According to the paper, seems like checking is done only for =
those
entities within your SOI, however, to ensure Global Conneectivity (GC), =
it
seems like it's possible you would connect to entities outside of your =
SOI,
then will you check for those entities whether they're enterining =
someone
else's SOI?)

Q3. A very important question is, is GC guaranteed to be maintained if =
every
node keeps the "inside convex hull" property? I understand you seem to =
be
thinking that is the case, however, has this been proven by either
simulation or mathematicial analysis? (I'm very curious to this =
question,
because I've also met with a similiar problem).

Q4. To ensure Local Awareness and Global Connectivity, entities need to
connect to each other, however, are connections between entities =
uniquely
determined, given their locations in the virtual world, or are there
actually more than one possibility of these 'links' between entities? =
(I'm
thinking the case when an entity is trying to ensure GC, the entities
connections it end up doing, might not be done in a strictly =
deterministic
manner, or is it purely deterministic?)

Q5. under what situation would SOI be enlarged? (the paper describes how =
it
could be reduced, when there are too many to connect, what about
enlargement?)

sorry for these long questions, I'd appreicate very much if you could =
answer
them. :)

We've got a paper that'll appear in the NetGame 2004 workshop coming up =
in
early Sept. also on P2P networked virtual environment. If you're =
interested,
I'd be willing to forward a copy to you.

Thanks again and cheers! :)


Shun-Yun Hu



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[Solipsis-tech] Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)

[Shun-Yun H. <sy...@ya...>]

Hello Gwendal,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it's true I left out the details of how to construct Voronoi, which I
probably should mention somewhat. Sorry about it and thanks for reminding
me. :) The reason is that Voronoi is something that has been studied quite
extensively since early 20th century, and there are numerous papers on its
construction & maintance.

To answer you briefly, the construction of Voronoi is basically done by
having the coordinates of a set of points (preferably those within your
AOI), then apply the algorithm (which we currently use Fortune's sweepline
algorithm. ref [1], but there are others. The general complexity for
constructing a Voronoi is O(log n). For maintainance, currently it's done by
a complete re-construction (so again, O(log n)), however, there are more
optimized algorithms that exist that could update a Voronoi dynamically
ref[2], and takes O(n).

So basically, right now for all join/move/leave, a node simply destory and
re-constructs its Voronoi, and is done in O(log n).

Once the Voronoi is constructed and put into some nice data structure,
further queries (such as who is a neighbor of who), can be done rather
efficiently in mostly a look-up fashion. I think the overlap check is done
in O(n).

However, from my perspective, the number of nodes that each computer needs
to maintain should be low (less than 50 for a very crowded session). So
algorithmatic complexity should not be the performance bottle-neck as these
calculations can be done fairly quickly. I'm more worry about the amount of
message exchange that's required for maintaining Local Awareness and Global
Connectivity. If you're interested in the details of Voronoi, I'd recommend
ref [3] and ref [4], which gives out fairly comprehesive treatement.

For GC maintainace, now I think there are two conceputally separate
situations that should be discussed, which we probably should give different
names to it. One is whether all nodes are connected to each other. (i.e. the
connectivity of the 'graph' as you mentioned), the other is whether the
connections made include your neighbors correctly (i.e. whether the Local
Awareness property is maintained correctly). I think it's worth making
distinctions between them, because it's possible to have a fully-connected
graph while each node does not necessarily maintain Local Awareness
properly. However, whether the full connectivity will ensure later recovery
for local awareness property, is something that should be include in the
discussion for any P2P architecture.

em.. just somet new thoughts.. :)

about the worse-case diagram in your Ph.D thesis, I'm not sure if I
understand it correctly. does the diagram indicate that there are nodes that
should be connected but are in fact not? (for example, entity ef is not
connected/discovered by e). and is it because the entity-query/discovery
process would stop before discovering ef?

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


Reference.
[1] FORTUNE, S. 1987. A sweepline algorithm for Voronoi diagrams
[2] GOWDA, I. G., KIRKPATRICK, D. G., LEE, D. T., AND NAAMAD, A. 1983.
Dynamic Voronoi diagrams. IEEE Trans. Infi Theory IT-29, 724-731.
[3] Aurenhammer, Franz. 1991.  Voronoi diagrams-a survey of a fundamental
geometric data structure. ACM Computing Survey Vol. 23. No. 3. p345 - 405
[4] GUIBAS, L. J., AND STOLFI, J. 1985. Primitives for the manipulation of
general subdivisions and the computation of Voronoi diagrams. ACM Trans.
Graph. 4, 74-123.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS" <gwe...@rd...>
To: <sy...@ya...>
Cc: <sol...@li...>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:25 AM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi,

[I include the solipsis list in this discussion]

Both projects (yours and Solipsis) relies on the same concept:
1- each entity is connected with all entities located within its Area Of
Interest (AOI)
2- each entity MAY be connected with some farther entities in order to
ensure Global Connectivity (GC). These far neighbors are chosen thanks to a
gemoetric rule (Voronoi for your project, an original and peculiar rule for
Solipsis)

Please find in the following some answers to your questions :

Q2 : the entities execute a "mutual neighbor discovery" algorithm every time
one of their neighbors move. Note that the AOI is not fixed. The number of
neighbors within the SOI is in a small range (typically a fixed value k +/-
20%).

Q3: we have to consider two proofs :
* are entities connected with all entities within AOI ? The answer is NO.
You may find an illustration of the identified worst case in the draft of my
PhD report (http://gwendal.simon.free.fr/Data/part1.pdf Figure 1.7 - page
17). Unfortunately, this report is written in french (due to a french law)
* does our rule ensure connectivity of the graph ? The answer is YES, if the
world is a torus and if the convex hull of the set of all entities is the
torus itself.

Q4: in current implementation, an entity stops the lookup of entity as soon
as it discovers another entity providing back the rule respect. It is
possible to optimize this algorithm in order to stop later.

I have now some questions about your paper. You don't give much details
about the construction and the maintaining of the Voronoi Diagram. What is
the algorithmic complexity of Voronoi re-building (when joining, when
moving, when leaving) ? What is the complexity of the "overlap-check"
algorithm (Voronoi regions overlapping AOI) ?

Best,

-- Gwendal


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]
Envoyé : mercredi 9 juin 2004 02:16
À : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
Objet : Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi Joaquin,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I've attached a current working draft of the
paper to this e-mail.
It's still not camera-ready yet (due next monday), as I need to reduce it to
5 pages, and I'm planning to include a section of analysis on Solipsis :) (I
wasn't aware of Solipsis when I first submited)

If you've any questions/comments/feedback, please do let me know, I'd very
appreciate.

some additional questions, if you don't mind:

Q2. It's as I suspected, because checking seems to be necessary for those
outside of SOI as well. I'm wondering about the frequency of the check. Does
it happen every time someone in my SOI moves? or does it happen only between
a certain interval. (this has performance/consistency impact on the design)

Q3. What is the case where it might not work? would you mind to let me know
the special circumstance? If it's difficult to prove GC maintaince via
mathmatical analysis, maybe simulation is the way. :)  We're also currently
doing simulations only, as I can't think of a good way to analyze/prove
topology maintaince. Have you any simulation results yet for Solipsis? (as
in having 1000+ entities simulation)

Q4. I guess my question is, will the P2P topology be maintained in a
deterministic way, or will hosts actually be able to connected in various
ways due to chance circumstance. For example, when trying to maintain GC,
you might start searching for a host to connect in the 180 degree "missing
range". However, it certainly appears that it's possible for more than one
host to "quality" as the node to connect to (for example, you could connect
to the 1st host that satisifis the requirement, or the "best" host, define
as that could reduce the "missing range angel" the most).

I've asked my friend (whose name is Peter) about collaboration, and I think
both him and I are interested.. :) although personally I'm not that into
language localization stuff.. :) I do hope for some form of collaboration,
if possible, because to my amazement when I first saw your paper, I think
both of us have the same ultimate goal, which is to realize some WWW-like
virtual environment, pervasive and usable for all people. :) We even have
the same literary reference in our paper (e.g. Matrix & Snow Crash), and
this was before I read about your paper..

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


----- Original Message ----- 
From: KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
To: Shun-Yun Hu ; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc: sol...@li...
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:01 AM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi Shun-Yun,
I am happy to know there is a solipsis-like project elsewhere in the planet
:-) Sure I want to get your netgames 2004 paper ! Your questions:
Q1: A list of nodes, at least some nodes should be alive. To get that list
you can download it, (eg entities.met in the solipsis distrib) and/or while
using Solipsis you keep memory of met entities so the list is frequently
updated.
Q2: By now: Checking is done for all known entities (whether they are inside
or outside SOI); When entity A detects that an entity B has entered the SOI
of entity C, entity A sends out immediatly a message to entity C. If entity
B is outside SOI of entity C, nothing occurs.
Q3: So so. We have proved that in some tricky cases it will not work. But we
have strong hints that it should works most of the time (not proved).
Q4: I am not sure to fully understand this question. There are some
deterministic rules to choose entities that will restore or keep GC
(something like "take the nearest that fulfill GC property"). But all that
is probably not very predictable since unpredictable network delays have a
huge impact on rules like "take the first node you got and..."
Q5: The awareness radius, awareness area or SOI is enlarged or reduced in
order to keep the number of entities inside in a certain range (say between
9 and 15).

Have fun,
-- Joaquin


BTW: we plan to handle multiple (human) languages in Solipsis GUI, and our
first target (after english) is Chinese (simplified-mainland and/or
classical-taiwanese) we will be happy if you and your friend contribute on
that.
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]
Envoyé : mardi 8 juin 2004 15:53
À : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS Objet :
[Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)




Hello Joaquin and Gwendal,

I'm a CS graduate student in Taiwan, I've recently learned the very
interesting and wonderful works you guys are doing at France Telecom R&D, on
Solipsis.

I got very interested in your work because I've also been thinking about a
massive P2P Virtual Environment that exists on the Internet, and I've been
doing related studies and research since Sept. 2003, along with a good
friend of mine.

I've only come across Solipsis recently, and had read through both of your
papers. However, I've some questions raised in my mind. If you could answer
these questions for me I'd very appreciated. :)

Q1. what's the bootstrap procedure? (i.e. how does a node join Solipsis
initially? through a list of known nodes? or through a 'gateway server' of
some sort?)

Q2. when, and how frequent does an entity check for mutual neighbor
discovery? (every time when someone within the Sphere of Influence (SOI) is
moving? or at certain intervals? another question is about the range of
checking. According to the paper, seems like checking is done only for those
entities within your SOI, however, to ensure Global Conneectivity (GC), it
seems like it's possible you would connect to entities outside of your SOI,
then will you check for those entities whether they're enterining someone
else's SOI?)

Q3. A very important question is, is GC guaranteed to be maintained if every
node keeps the "inside convex hull" property? I understand you seem to be
thinking that is the case, however, has this been proven by either
simulation or mathematicial analysis? (I'm very curious to this question,
because I've also met with a similiar problem).

Q4. To ensure Local Awareness and Global Connectivity, entities need to
connect to each other, however, are connections between entities uniquely
determined, given their locations in the virtual world, or are there
actually more than one possibility of these 'links' between entities? (I'm
thinking the case when an entity is trying to ensure GC, the entities
connections it end up doing, might not be done in a strictly deterministic
manner, or is it purely deterministic?)

Q5. under what situation would SOI be enlarged? (the paper describes how it
could be reduced, when there are too many to connect, what about
enlargement?)

sorry for these long questions, I'd appreicate very much if you could answer
them. :)

We've got a paper that'll appear in the NetGame 2004 workshop coming up in
early Sept. also on P2P networked virtual environment. If you're interested,
I'd be willing to forward a copy to you.

Thanks again and cheers! :)


Shun-Yun Hu

[Solipsis-tech] RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)

[SIMON G. FTRD/DMI/I. <gwe...@rd...>]

Hi,

	[I include the solipsis list in this discussion]

	Both projects (yours and Solipsis) relies on the same concept:=20
1- each entity is connected with all entities located within its Area Of =
Interest (AOI)
2- each entity MAY be connected with some farther entities in order to =
ensure Global Connectivity (GC). These far neighbors are chosen thanks =
to a gemoetric rule (Voronoi for your project, an original and peculiar =
rule for Solipsis)

	Please find in the following some answers to your questions :

	Q2 : the entities execute a "mutual neighbor discovery" algorithm every =
time one of their neighbors move. Note that the AOI is not fixed. The =
number of neighbors within the SOI is in a small range (typically a =
fixed value k +/- 20%).

	Q3: we have to consider two proofs :
* are entities connected with all entities within AOI ? The answer is =
NO. You may find an illustration of the identified worst case in the =
draft of my PhD report (http://gwendal.simon.free.fr/Data/part1.pdf =
Figure 1.7 - page 17). Unfortunately, this report is written in french =
(due to a french law)
* does our rule ensure connectivity of the graph ? The answer is YES, if =
the world is a torus and if the convex hull of the set of all entities =
is the torus itself.

	Q4: in current implementation, an entity stops the lookup of entity as =
soon as it discovers another entity providing back the rule respect. It =
is possible to optimize this algorithm in order to stop later.
=09
	I have now some questions about your paper. You don't give much details =
about the construction and the maintaining of the Voronoi Diagram. What =
is the algorithmic complexity of Voronoi re-building (when joining, when =
moving, when leaving) ? What is the complexity of the "overlap-check" =
algorithm (Voronoi regions overlapping AOI) ?

	Best,

-- Gwendal


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]=20
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 9 juin 2004 02:16
=C0 : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
Objet : Re: [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi Joaquin,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I've attached a current working draft of =
the paper to this e-mail.=20
It's still not camera-ready yet (due next monday), as I need to reduce =
it to 5 pages, and I'm planning to include a section of analysis on =
Solipsis :) (I wasn't aware of Solipsis when I first submited) =20

If you've any questions/comments/feedback, please do let me know, I'd =
very appreciate.

some additional questions, if you don't mind:

Q2. It's as I suspected, because checking seems to be necessary for =
those outside of SOI as well. I'm wondering about the frequency of the =
check. Does it happen every time someone in my SOI moves? or does it =
happen only between a certain interval. (this has =
performance/consistency impact on the design)

Q3. What is the case where it might not work? would you mind to let me =
know the special circumstance? If it's difficult to prove GC maintaince =
via mathmatical analysis, maybe simulation is the way. :)  We're also =
currently doing simulations only, as I can't think of a good way to =
analyze/prove topology maintaince. Have you any simulation results yet =
for Solipsis? (as in having 1000+ entities simulation)

Q4. I guess my question is, will the P2P topology be maintained in a =
deterministic way, or will hosts actually be able to connected in =
various ways due to chance circumstance. For example, when trying to =
maintain GC, you might start searching for a host to connect in the 180 =
degree "missing range". However, it certainly appears that it's possible =
for more than one host to "quality" as the node to connect to (for =
example, you could connect to the 1st host that satisifis the =
requirement, or the "best" host, define as that could reduce the =
"missing range angel" the most).

I've asked my friend (whose name is Peter) about collaboration, and I =
think both him and I are interested.. :) although personally I'm not =
that into language localization stuff.. :) I do hope for some form of =
collaboration, if possible, because to my amazement when I first saw =
your paper, I think both of us have the same ultimate goal, which is to =
realize some WWW-like virtual environment, pervasive and usable for all =
people. :) We even have the same literary reference in our paper (e.g. =
Matrix & Snow Crash), and this was before I read about your paper..=20

Cheers,

Shun-Yun


----- Original Message -----=20
From: KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS=20
To: Shun-Yun Hu ; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS=20
Cc: sol...@li...=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:01 AM
Subject: RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)


Hi Shun-Yun,
I am happy to know there is a solipsis-like project elsewhere in the =
planet :-) Sure I want to get your netgames 2004 paper ! Your questions:
Q1: A list of nodes, at least some nodes should be alive. To get that =
list you can download it, (eg entities.met in the solipsis distrib) =
and/or while using Solipsis you keep memory of met entities so the list =
is frequently updated.
Q2: By now: Checking is done for all known entities (whether they are =
inside or outside SOI); When entity A detects that an entity B has =
entered the SOI of entity C, entity A sends out immediatly a message to =
entity C. If entity B is outside SOI of entity C, nothing occurs.=20
Q3: So so. We have proved that in some tricky cases it will not work. =
But we have strong hints that it should works most of the time (not =
proved).=20
Q4: I am not sure to fully understand this question. There are some =
deterministic rules to choose entities that will restore or keep GC =
(something like "take the nearest that fulfill GC property"). But all =
that is probably not very predictable since unpredictable network delays =
have a huge impact on rules like "take the first node you got and..."
Q5: The awareness radius, awareness area or SOI is enlarged or reduced =
in order to keep the number of entities inside in a certain range (say =
between 9 and 15).=20

Have fun,
-- Joaquin


BTW: we plan to handle multiple (human) languages in Solipsis GUI, and =
our first target (after english) is Chinese (simplified-mainland and/or =
classical-taiwanese) we will be happy if you and your friend contribute =
on that.=20
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]=20
Envoy=E9 : mardi 8 juin 2004 15:53
=C0 : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS Objet : =
[Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)




Hello Joaquin and Gwendal,

I'm a CS graduate student in Taiwan, I've recently learned the very =
interesting and wonderful works you guys are doing at France Telecom =
R&D, on Solipsis.

I got very interested in your work because I've also been thinking about =
a massive P2P Virtual Environment that exists on the Internet, and I've =
been doing related studies and research since Sept. 2003, along with a =
good friend of mine.=20

I've only come across Solipsis recently, and had read through both of =
your papers. However, I've some questions raised in my mind. If you =
could answer these questions for me I'd very appreciated. :)=20

Q1. what's the bootstrap procedure? (i.e. how does a node join Solipsis =
initially? through a list of known nodes? or through a 'gateway server' =
of some sort?)

Q2. when, and how frequent does an entity check for mutual neighbor =
discovery? (every time when someone within the Sphere of Influence (SOI) =
is moving? or at certain intervals? another question is about the range =
of checking. According to the paper, seems like checking is done only =
for those entities within your SOI, however, to ensure Global =
Conneectivity (GC), it seems like it's possible you would connect to =
entities outside of your SOI, then will you check for those entities =
whether they're enterining someone else's SOI?)=20

Q3. A very important question is, is GC guaranteed to be maintained if =
every node keeps the "inside convex hull" property? I understand you =
seem to be thinking that is the case, however, has this been proven by =
either simulation or mathematicial analysis? (I'm very curious to this =
question, because I've also met with a similiar problem).=20

Q4. To ensure Local Awareness and Global Connectivity, entities need to =
connect to each other, however, are connections between entities =
uniquely determined, given their locations in the virtual world, or are =
there actually more than one possibility of these 'links' between =
entities? (I'm thinking the case when an entity is trying to ensure GC, =
the entities connections it end up doing, might not be done in a =
strictly deterministic manner, or is it purely deterministic?)

Q5. under what situation would SOI be enlarged? (the paper describes how =
it could be reduced, when there are too many to connect, what about =
enlargement?)=20

sorry for these long questions, I'd appreicate very much if you could =
answer them. :)

We've got a paper that'll appear in the NetGame 2004 workshop coming up =
in early Sept. also on P2P networked virtual environment. If you're =
interested, I'd be willing to forward a copy to you.

Thanks again and cheers! :)


Shun-Yun Hu

[Solipsis-tech] RE : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)

[KELLER J. FTRD/DMI/I. <joa...@rd...>]

Hi Shun-Yun,
I am happy to know there is a solipsis-like project elsewhere in the =
planet :-) Sure I want to get your netgames 2004 paper !
Your questions:
Q1: A list of nodes, at least some nodes should be alive. To get that =
list you can download it, (eg entities.met in the solipsis distrib) =
and/or while using Solipsis you keep memory of met entities so the list =
is frequently updated.
Q2: By now: Checking is done for all known entities (whether they are =
inside or outside SOI); When entity A detects that an entity B has =
entered the SOI of entity C, entity A sends out immediatly a message to =
entity C. If entity B is outside SOI of entity C, nothing occurs.=20
Q3: So so. We have proved that in some tricky cases it will not work. =
But we have strong hints that it should works most of the time (not =
proved).=20
Q4: I am not sure to fully understand this question. There are some =
deterministic rules to choose entities that will restore or keep GC =
(something like "take the nearest that fulfill GC property"). But all =
that is probably not very predictable since unpredictable network delays =
have a huge impact on rules like "take the first node you got and..."
Q5: The awareness radius, awareness area or SOI is enlarged or reduced =
in order to keep the number of entities inside in a certain range (say =
between 9 and 15).=20
=20
Have fun,
-- Joaquin
=20
=20
BTW: we plan to handle multiple (human) languages in Solipsis GUI, and =
our first target (after english) is Chinese (simplified-mainland and/or =
classical-taiwanese) we will be happy if you and your friend contribute =
on that.=20

	-----Message d'origine-----
	De : Shun-Yun Hu [mailto:sy...@ya...]=20
	Envoy=E9 : mardi 8 juin 2004 15:53
	=C0 : KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS; SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
	Objet : [Solipsis] some questions about Solipsis (from Taiwan)
=09
=09
=09
=09
	Hello Joaquin and Gwendal,

	I'm a CS graduate student in Taiwan, I've recently learned the very =
interesting and wonderful works you guys are doing at France Telecom =
R&D, on Solipsis.
	=20
	I got very interested in your work because I've also been thinking =
about a massive P2P Virtual Environment that exists on the Internet, and =
I've been doing related studies and research since Sept. 2003, along =
with a good friend of mine.=20
	=20
	I've only come across Solipsis recently, and had read through both of =
your papers. However, I've some questions raised in my mind. If you =
could answer these questions for me I'd very appreciated. :)=20
=09
	Q1. what's the bootstrap procedure? (i.e. how does a node join Solipsis =
initially? through a list of known nodes? or through a 'gateway server' =
of some sort?)
	=20
	Q2. when, and how frequent does an entity check for mutual neighbor =
discovery? (every time when someone within the Sphere of Influence (SOI) =
is moving? or at certain intervals? another question is about the range =
of checking. According to the paper, seems like checking is done only =
for those entities within your SOI, however, to ensure Global =
Conneectivity (GC), it seems like it's possible you would connect to =
entities outside of your SOI, then will you check for those entities =
whether they're enterining someone else's SOI?)=20
=09

	Q3. A very important question is, is GC guaranteed to be maintained if =
every node keeps the "inside convex hull" property? I understand you =
seem to be thinking that is the case, however, has this been proven by =
either simulation or mathematicial analysis? (I'm very curious to this =
question, because I've also met with a similiar problem).=20
=09
	Q4. To ensure Local Awareness and Global Connectivity, entities need to =
connect to each other, however, are connections between entities =
uniquely determined, given their locations in the virtual world, or are =
there actually more than one possibility of these 'links' between =
entities? (I'm thinking the case when an entity is trying to ensure GC, =
the entities connections it end up doing, might not be done in a =
strictly deterministic manner, or is it purely deterministic?)
=09
	Q5. under what situation would SOI be enlarged? (the paper describes =
how it could be reduced, when there are too many to connect, what about =
enlargement?)=20
	=20
	sorry for these long questions, I'd appreicate very much if you could =
answer them. :)
	=20
	We've got a paper that'll appear in the NetGame 2004 workshop coming up =
in early Sept. also on P2P networked virtual environment. If you're =
interested, I'd be willing to forward a copy to you.
	=20
	Thanks again and cheers! :)
	=20
	=20
	Shun-Yun Hu
	=20
	=20
	=20
	=20

[Solipsis-tech] FASD project: Online survey launched

[<ben...@id...>]

Dear Open Source developer

I am doing a research project on "Fun and Software Development" in which I kindly invite you to participate.
You will find the online survey under http://fasd.ethz.ch/qsf/. The questionnaire consists of 53 questions and you will need about 15 minutes to complete it.

With the FASD project (Fun and Software Development) we want to define the motivational significance of fun when software developers decide to engage in Open Source projects. What is special about our research project is that a similar survey is planned with software developers in commercial firms. This procedure allows the immediate comparison between the involved individuals and the conditions of production of these two development models. Thus we hope to obtain substantial new insights to the phenomenon of Open Source Development.


With many thanks for your participation,
Benno Luthiger


PS:
The results of the survey will be published under http://www.isu.unizh.ch/fuehrung/blprojects/FASD/.
We have set up the mailing list fa...@we... for this study. Please see http://fasd.ethz.ch/qsf/mailinglist_en.html for registration to this mailing list.

_______________________________________________________________________

Benno Luthiger
Swiss Federal Institute of Technology Zurich
8092 Zurich

Mail: benno.luthiger(at)id.ethz.ch
_______________________________________________________________________

[Solipsis-tech] Follow up on Navigator Improvement and DIS Dead Reckoning Algorithm

[Jonathan H. <csh...@ya...>]

I am using the same version of wxPython as you
are(2.4.2.4) The next version doesn't cover anything
under the device contexts concerning the logical
function.
 
The site you found on Double Buffering Drawing is
interesting. A bit complicated, but might do well if
it can run on both Windows and Linux. As you can see,
I'm new to Python. I've haven't yet delved into all of
its facets.

As for the DIS dead reckoning algorithm, I need to
know your approach to the algorithm. 

Jonathan


--- sol...@li... wrote:
> Send Solipsis-tech mailing list submissions to
> 	sol...@li...
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web,
> visit
> 
>
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/solipsis-tech
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body
> 'help' to
> 	sol...@li...
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	sol...@li...
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it
> is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Solipsis-tech digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. RE : Navigator Improvement (KELLER Joaquin
> FTRD/DMI/ISS)
>    2. Constant entity movement (RE : Navigator
> Improvement) (KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:55:47 +0200
> From: "KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS"
> <joa...@rd...>
> To: "Jonathan Henderson "
>
<IMC...@rd...>
> Cc: <sol...@li...>
> Subject: [Solipsis-tech] RE : Navigator Improvement
> 
> Hi Jonathan,
> I've tried your code and... It works :-)
> But only in windows... :-(
> In Linux, I got this message:
> ------------
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "wxMainFrame.py", line 477, in OnPaint2DView
>     self.DoDrawing(dc)
>   File "wxMainFrame.py", line 629, in DoDrawing
>     OffScreenDC.SetLogicalFunction(wxCOPY)
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/wxPython/gdi.py",
> line 720, in
> SetLogicalFunction
>     val =3D gdic.wxDC_SetLogicalFunction(self,
> *_args, **_kwargs)
> wxPython.wxc.wxPyAssertionError: C++ assertion
> "wxAssertFailure" failed
> in
>
/usr/src/redhat/BUILD/wxPythonSrc-2.4.2.4/src/gtk/dcclient.cpp(2024):
> invalid window dc
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "wxMainFrame.py", line 477, in OnPaint2DView
>     self.DoDrawing(dc)
>   File "wxMainFrame.py", line 629, in DoDrawing
>     OffScreenDC.SetLogicalFunction(wxCOPY)
>   File
> "/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/wxPython/gdi.py",
> line 720, in
> SetLogicalFunction
>     val =3D gdic.wxDC_SetLogicalFunction(self,
> *_args, **_kwargs)
> wxPython.wxc.wxPyAssertionError: C++ assertion
> "wxAssertFailure" failed
> in
>
/usr/src/redhat/BUILD/wxPythonSrc-2.4.2.4/src/gtk/dcclient.cpp(2024):
> invalid window dc=20
> -----------
> I don't understand exactly what's the problem.
> Migrating to wxPython  2.5.1 (I'm still using
> 2.4.2.4) might solve it.
> I have to got the time to migrate (it could be
> tough, see
> http://www.wxpython.org/recentchanges.php )
> Which version of wxPython are you using ?
> It could also be an issue from wxGTK...=20
> 
> Wandering the web to clear up the problem, I found
> that:
>
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/DoubleBufferedDrawing
> Is this recipe still up to date ?
> 
> Anyway, as soon I got the time (next week), I will
> add your improvement
> to the release (windows only).
> 
> Solipsisly yours,
> -- Joaquin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Henderson
> [mailto:csh...@ya...]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 11:12 PM
> To: SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
> Cc: CSh...@ya...
> Subject: Navigator Improvement
> 
> 
> Here's the attachment in a zip file. I hope it gets
> through this time.
> 
> As for the "constant user movement," I not sure if
> you
> have read the first e-mail that I gave to Joaquin,
> but
> in the fourth paragraph of the paper "Towards a
> Peer-to-Peer Shared Virtual Reality," it discusses
> of
> the expectation that the users using Solipsis will
> not
> be moving around much. I discussed the problem of
> not supporting
> constant entity movement with Joaquin. I sent in my
> ideas to implement
> it and they were somewhat near to his DIS dead
> reckoning algorithm. It's
> not official that I'm going to implement support for
> constant entity
> movement, I just wanted to mention that it might be
> my next project.
> 
> Well, anyways, I hope you got the attachment. Enjoy.
> 
> Jonathan
> 
> --- SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
> <gwe...@rd...>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >=20
> > 	We received your attachment, but we have problems
> > with it. The
> > file we receive is damaged: the most evident issue
> > is that some cr\lf
> > were added in long lines. We don't know where the
> > problem occurs. It
> > might be in our side. Anyhow, could you please
> send
> > it as a .zip file ?
> >=20
> > 	Besides, we do not understand exactly what you
> mean
> > about the
> > "constant user movement" you want to implement.
> > Could you give us more
> > details ?
> >=20
> > 	Have fun !
> >=20
> > -- Gwendal
> >=20
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 18:15:24 +0200
> From: "KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS"
> <joa...@rd...>
> To: <sol...@li...>
> Cc: "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS"
> <gwe...@rd...>
> Subject: [Solipsis-tech] Constant entity movement
> (RE : Navigator Improvement)
> 
> Jonathan,
> It will be really great if you start
> studying/designing a kind of
> "peer-to-peer dead reckoning" algorithm for
> solipsis.
> Feel free to send us your ideas on the topic, the
> feedback and
> discussions will be benefic for all of us.
> Have fun
> -- Joaquin
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Henderson
> [mailto:csh...@ya...]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 11:12 PM
> To: SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
> Cc: CSh...@ya...
> Subject: Navigator Improvement
> 
> 
> Here's the attachment in a zip file. I hope it gets
> through this time.
> 
> As for the "constant user movement," I not sure if
> you
> 
=== message truncated ===



	
		
__________________________________
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[Solipsis-tech] Constant entity movement (RE : Navigator Improvement)

[KELLER J. FTRD/DMI/I. <joa...@rd...>]

Jonathan,
It will be really great if you start studying/designing a kind of
"peer-to-peer dead reckoning" algorithm for solipsis.
Feel free to send us your ideas on the topic, the feedback and
discussions will be benefic for all of us.
Have fun
-- Joaquin


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Henderson [mailto:csh...@ya...]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 11:12 PM
To: SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc: CSh...@ya...
Subject: Navigator Improvement


Here's the attachment in a zip file. I hope it gets
through this time.

As for the "constant user movement," I not sure if you
have read the first e-mail that I gave to Joaquin, but
in the fourth paragraph of the paper "Towards a
Peer-to-Peer Shared Virtual Reality," it discusses of
the expectation that the users using Solipsis will not
be moving around much. I discussed the problem of not supporting
constant entity movement with Joaquin. I sent in my ideas to implement
it and they were somewhat near to his DIS dead reckoning algorithm. It's
not official that I'm going to implement support for constant entity
movement, I just wanted to mention that it might be my next project.

Well, anyways, I hope you got the attachment. Enjoy.

Jonathan

--- SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS <gwe...@rd...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> 	We received your attachment, but we have problems
> with it. The
> file we receive is damaged: the most evident issue
> is that some cr\lf
> were added in long lines. We don't know where the
> problem occurs. It
> might be in our side. Anyhow, could you please send
> it as a .zip file ?
>=20
> 	Besides, we do not understand exactly what you mean
> about the
> "constant user movement" you want to implement.
> Could you give us more
> details ?
>=20
> 	Have fun !
>=20
> -- Gwendal
>=20


__________________________________
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Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway=20
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[Solipsis-tech] RE : Navigator Improvement

[KELLER J. FTRD/DMI/I. <joa...@rd...>]

Hi Jonathan,
I've tried your code and... It works :-)
But only in windows... :-(
In Linux, I got this message:
------------
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "wxMainFrame.py", line 477, in OnPaint2DView
    self.DoDrawing(dc)
  File "wxMainFrame.py", line 629, in DoDrawing
    OffScreenDC.SetLogicalFunction(wxCOPY)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/wxPython/gdi.py", line 720, in
SetLogicalFunction
    val =3D gdic.wxDC_SetLogicalFunction(self, *_args, **_kwargs)
wxPython.wxc.wxPyAssertionError: C++ assertion "wxAssertFailure" failed
in /usr/src/redhat/BUILD/wxPythonSrc-2.4.2.4/src/gtk/dcclient.cpp(2024):
invalid window dc
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "wxMainFrame.py", line 477, in OnPaint2DView
    self.DoDrawing(dc)
  File "wxMainFrame.py", line 629, in DoDrawing
    OffScreenDC.SetLogicalFunction(wxCOPY)
  File "/usr/lib/python2.2/site-packages/wxPython/gdi.py", line 720, in
SetLogicalFunction
    val =3D gdic.wxDC_SetLogicalFunction(self, *_args, **_kwargs)
wxPython.wxc.wxPyAssertionError: C++ assertion "wxAssertFailure" failed
in /usr/src/redhat/BUILD/wxPythonSrc-2.4.2.4/src/gtk/dcclient.cpp(2024):
invalid window dc=20
-----------
I don't understand exactly what's the problem.
Migrating to wxPython  2.5.1 (I'm still using 2.4.2.4) might solve it.
I have to got the time to migrate (it could be tough, see
http://www.wxpython.org/recentchanges.php )
Which version of wxPython are you using ?
It could also be an issue from wxGTK...=20

Wandering the web to clear up the problem, I found that:
http://wiki.wxpython.org/index.cgi/DoubleBufferedDrawing
Is this recipe still up to date ?

Anyway, as soon I got the time (next week), I will add your improvement
to the release (windows only).

Solipsisly yours,
-- Joaquin




-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Henderson [mailto:csh...@ya...]=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 11:12 PM
To: SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc: CSh...@ya...
Subject: Navigator Improvement


Here's the attachment in a zip file. I hope it gets
through this time.

As for the "constant user movement," I not sure if you
have read the first e-mail that I gave to Joaquin, but
in the fourth paragraph of the paper "Towards a
Peer-to-Peer Shared Virtual Reality," it discusses of
the expectation that the users using Solipsis will not
be moving around much. I discussed the problem of not supporting
constant entity movement with Joaquin. I sent in my ideas to implement
it and they were somewhat near to his DIS dead reckoning algorithm. It's
not official that I'm going to implement support for constant entity
movement, I just wanted to mention that it might be my next project.

Well, anyways, I hope you got the attachment. Enjoy.

Jonathan

--- SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS <gwe...@rd...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> 	We received your attachment, but we have problems
> with it. The
> file we receive is damaged: the most evident issue
> is that some cr\lf
> were added in long lines. We don't know where the
> problem occurs. It
> might be in our side. Anyhow, could you please send
> it as a .zip file ?
>=20
> 	Besides, we do not understand exactly what you mean
> about the
> "constant user movement" you want to implement.
> Could you give us more
> details ?
>=20
> 	Have fun !
>=20
> -- Gwendal
>=20

RE : [Solipsis-tech] Re: Did you get the Navigator Improvements?

[SIMON G. FTRD/DMI/I. <gwe...@rd...>]

Hi,

	We received your attachment, but we have problems with it. The
file we receive is damaged: the most evident issue is that some cr\lf
were added in long lines. We don't know where the problem occurs. It
might be in our side. Anyhow, could you please send it as a .zip file ?

	Besides, we do not understand exactly what you mean about the
"constant user movement" you want to implement. Could you give us more
details ?

	Have fun !

-- Gwendal

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jonathan Henderson [mailto:csh...@ya...]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:33 PM
> To: sol...@li...
> Subject: [Solipsis-tech] Re: Did you get the Navigator Improvements?
>=20
>=20
> Did you get the attachment I sent to you?
>=20
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway=20
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials
> Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President=20
> and CEO of GenToo technologies. Learn everything from=20
> fundamentals to system=20
> =
administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=3D1470&alloc_id=3D3638&op=3Dcli=
ck
> _______________________________________________
> Solipsis-tech mailing list
> Sol...@li...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/solipsis-tech
>=20

[Solipsis-tech] Re: Did you get the Navigator Improvements?

[Jonathan H. <csh...@ya...>]

Did you get the attachment I sent to you?

__________________________________
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[Solipsis-tech] FW : Navigator Improvment

[SIMON G. FTRD/DMI/I. <gwe...@rd...>]

For informations

-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Henderson [mailto:ron...@ho...]=20
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 6:58 AM
To: SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS
Cc: KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
Subject: Navigator Improvment


I didn't put in page-flipping. Instead I used double buffering. All it
does=20
is draws the images to a off-screen bitmap and then blits the bitmap to
the=20
screen thus eliminating flicker. All of the implementation of the=20
double-buffering is within the DoDrawing function of the wxMainFrame.py=20
file.

I'd like to work on making constant user movement possible but doing
that=20
would seem to radically change the code for the node affecting almost
every=20
line of code throughout the project. I wouldn't be sure where to begin=20
without stumbling upon any error messages.

There are some issues with dealing with the node. When closing the
navigator=20
altogether, it seems the program for the node is still running, making
the=20
navigator connect to the node.

Other than that all I ask is for my name to be listed among the
contributors=20
to your project.

With Thanks,
Jonathan

>From: "SIMON Gwendal FTRD/DMI/ISS" <gwe...@rd...>
>To: "Jonathan Henderson" <ron...@ho...>,"KELLER Joaquin
>FTRD/DMI/ISS" <joa...@rd...>
>Subject: RE : Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 09:43:52 +0200
>
>Hi,
>
>	Super !
>
>	We are far to be satisfied by the current Navigator
implementation. It=20
>needs some major improvements. By now, we are studying a better way to=20
>manage events. Page-flipping is a concern and it will be very nice if=20
>you take the responsibility of this task !
>
>	We will not modify navigator without inform you.
>
>	Have fun !
>
>-- Gwendal
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jonathan Henderson [mailto:ron...@ho...]
> > Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 6:34 PM
> > To: KELLER Joaquin FTRD/DMI/ISS
> > Subject:
> >
> >
> > Thank you for response. I've been trying to e-mail you but=20
> > unfortunately Yahoo must be having problems in its e-mail service.
> >
> > The DIS dead reckoning algorithm does sound a bit messy. But of=20
> > course that could be implemented later.
> >
> > As for the GUI, I am willing to improve on the GUI by enabling=20
> > page-flipping, but even though I am flexible with programming, I=20
> > only know
> > C++, Java, C#, and Visual Basic.NET. Python is new to me, so it will

> > C++take
> > some time in just getting the hang of it.
> >
> > Since I would be helping you on the project it would be nice if I=20
> > could be informed of any changes to Solipsis.
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > Jonathan Henderson
> > ron...@ho...
> > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is=20
> > protected and safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
> >
> >

_________________________________________________________________
Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans
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http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=3Den-us&page=3Dhotmail/es2&ST=3D1/go/onm002=
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ave/direct/01/

[Solipsis-tech] test

[KELLER J. FTRD/DMI/I. <joa...@rd...>]

[Solipsis-tech] Future Solipsis

[SIMON G. FTRD/DMI/I. <gwe...@rd...>]

Hi,=20

	Here are some ideas for future Solipsis.

- protocols=20

The interface between node and Navigator should be totally rewritten. I
guess that Node could become a XML server and Navigator only a client;
Among advantages, it could permit NAT traversals. It requires works on
the best way of structuring data.

- new services

I think that it could be interesting to create a "constant" service,
i.e. a service that still coneect to the node even when navigator
disconnects. Entities should be able to keep their avatars without user
control.

- collision

It makes sense to construct a house if nobody is able to go through...
So is the idea behind collision detection but the distributed scheme of
Solipsis makes it difficult. I guess that a collision avoidance rule
should be defined (e.g. refuse motion that could produce collision) but
there still are some questions :
* how about two entities that move simultaneously and collide ?
* how do we manage motions in crowds ?
* how should an entity react if it meets another entity not respecting
the collision avoidance rule ?
* ...

	Bye !

-- Gwendal