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Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
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From: i18n <i1...@ya...> - 2004-07-30 05:27:33
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I was on vacation right after I wrote that but am back now. I am interested. I think it would be a fine addition for slash. Other CMS's I have looked at (only a small subset of what is out there, but still) do support Unicode. After all, XML is by definition to be in Unicode. How difficult this would be is hard to say without doing a code analysis, talking with the developers to understand plans for the future, and so forth. I'd be interested to hear from the developers if this is the sort of big bang feature that they can see being part of Slash going forward. Best, Barry Malcolm Lawrence wrote: >"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal >with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions to/from >Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to support >Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is >all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates >could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired." > >So who wants to help thread Slash with Unicode? How difficult would it be >and how long would it take? > > >Malcolm Lawrence >Editor-in-Chief >Babel: The multilingual, multicultural >online journal and community of arts and ideas. >http://www.towerofbabel.com >------------------------------------------------------------ >Babel knows: It is not unpatriotic to exercise your rights and it is >un-American to suggest otherwise. >------------------------------------------------------------ > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Malcolm Lawrence" <ma...@to...> >To: <sla...@li...>; "Barry Caplan" ><bc...@i1...> >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:17 PM >Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com > > > > >>"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal >>with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions >> >> >to/from > > >>Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to >> >> >support > > >>Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is >>all there is to it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates >>could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired." >> >>Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode? >> >> >>Malcolm Lawrence >>Editor-in-Chief >>Babel: The multilingual, multicultural >>online journal and community of arts and ideas. >>http://www.towerofbabel.com >>------------------------------------------------------------ >>Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites. >>------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Barry Caplan" <bc...@i1...> >>To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <ma...@to...>; >><sla...@li...> >>Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM >>Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com >> >> >> >> >>>At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to >>>> >>>> >indicate > > >>>>language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea." >>>> >>>>True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware >>>> >>>> >of > > >>>>all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can >>>> >>>> >>be >> >> >>>>implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have >>>> >>>> >to > > >>>>do. They're pretty, too. >>>> >>>> >>>Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point. >>> >>>There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth >>> >>> >>that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale. >> >> >>>I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in google >>> >>> >>for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. ) >> >> >>>The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general category >>> >>> >of > > >>"They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being described" >> >> >and > > >>"users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually rightfully >> >> >so". > > >>>Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union >>> >>> >>Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or is it >>something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What >> >> >about > > >>people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? Australia's >>first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to >>indicate English localization? >> >> >>>Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak >>> >>> >>English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I will go >> >> >with > > >>the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US locale >>based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish, >>Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to use >>again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken many >>places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is >>universal. >> >> >>>And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language is >>> >>> >>used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the Taiwan >>flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2 >>countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without offending. >> >> >>>Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English and >>> >>> >>French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of the >> >> >material > > >>behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious about >>political issues you don't mean to say! >> >> >>>The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale is, >>> >>> >>quite frankly, because there are none to be had. >> >> >>>It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard earned >>> >>> >>experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of people >> >> >and > > >>a lot of time. >> >> >>>If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever >>> >>> >that > > >>means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works >>wonders for that :) >> >> >>>For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com indicates >>> >>> >>locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled with >> >> >whatever > > >>UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go. >> >> >>>As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been well >>> >>> >>over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to do is a >>matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management issues >>to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far >> >> >more > > >>complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it hasn't >>been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination of >>all three factors. >> >> >>>AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to >>> >>> >scale. > > >>For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide user >>base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be >>volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort >> >> >level > > >>and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent >>fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to be >>coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise it >> >> >is > > >>just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines so >>they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined >> >> >point > > >>more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table. >> >> >>>>"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and >>>> >>>> >display > > >>>>properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers, >>>> >>>> >that > > >>is >> >> >>>>possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character >>>>encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are >>>>Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying >>>> >>>> >>multiple >> >> >>>>languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a >>>> >>>> >>site >> >> >>>>called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)" >>>> >>>>Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be >>>> >>>> >able > > >>to >> >> >>>>deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment >>>> >>>> >>posted. >> >> >>>>Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all >>>> >>>> >>internal >> >> >>>>processing in Unicode? >>>> >>>> >>>Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal >>> >>> >>with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions >> >> >to/from > > >>Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. >> >> >>>If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is now >>> >>> >>(ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to it as far as the >>database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages, >> >> >even > > >>within a template if so desired. >> >> >>>In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless you >>> >>> >>wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. And if >>someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so >>neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every >>codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums >> >> >up > > >>the reason why that is the case :) >> >> >>>Best, >>> >>>Barry >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>------------------------------------------------------- >>This SF.Net email sponsored by Black Hat Briefings & Training. >>Attend Black Hat Briefings & Training, Las Vegas July 24-29 - >>digital self defense, top technical experts, no vendor pitches, >>unmatched networking opportunities. Visit www.blackhat.com >>_______________________________________________ >>Slashcode-development mailing list >>Sla...@li... >>https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development >> >> >> > > > >------------------------------------------------------- >This SF.Net email is sponsored by OSTG. Have you noticed the changes on >Linux.com, ITManagersJournal and NewsForge in the past few weeks? Now, >one more big change to announce. We are now OSTG- Open Source Technology >Group. Come see the changes on the new OSTG site. www.ostg.com >_______________________________________________ >Slashcode-development mailing list >Sla...@li... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/slashcode-development > > > |
