Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com

[Malcolm L. <ma...@to...>]

"Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions to/from
Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to support
Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
all there is to  it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."

So who wants to help thread Slash with Unicode? How difficult would it be
and how long would it take?


Malcolm Lawrence
Editor-in-Chief
Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
online journal and community of arts and ideas.
http://www.towerofbabel.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Babel knows: It is not unpatriotic to exercise your rights and it is
un-American to suggest otherwise.
------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Malcolm Lawrence" <ma...@to...>
To: <sla...@li...>; "Barry Caplan"
<bc...@i1...>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com


> "Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
> with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
to/from
> Unicode for both inbound and outbound data. If slash is rewritten to
support
> Unicode instead of whatever it is now (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is
> all there is to  it as far as the database is concerned. Even templates
> could then be in many languages, even within a template if so desired."
>
> Rightio. Any other voices like to chime in about slash and Unicode?
>
>
> Malcolm Lawrence
> Editor-in-Chief
> Babel: The multilingual, multicultural
> online journal and community of arts and ideas.
> http://www.towerofbabel.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Babel knows: People who don't work with their hands are parasites.
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Barry Caplan" <bc...@i1...>
> To: "Malcolm Lawrence" <ma...@to...>;
> <sla...@li...>
> Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2004 7:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Slashcode-development] towerofbabel.com
>
>
> > At 06:23 PM 7/1/2004, Malcolm Lawrence wrote:
> >
> > >"I can say quite comfortably that using flags as a ui device to
indicate
> > >language or any other locale issue is a bad bad idea."
> > >
> > >True enough. I've been building the site for 8 years and am well aware
of
> > >all the arguments against. But until a more suitable design element can
> be
> > >implemented (not to mention appropriate icons for topics) they'll have
to
> > >do. They're pretty, too.
> >
> >
> > Hmm. I guess I wasn't clear enough on this point.
> >
> > There is not one single professional localizer on the face of the earth
> that would recommend flags as an UI element indicating locale.
> >
> > I hope that is plain enough. If not, at least it will turn up in google
> for someone someday who will read why and decide to not use flags. )
> >
> > The reasons, as I enumerated some of them, fall in the general category
of
> "They don't have a one to one relationship with what is being described"
and
> "users have visceral, political feelings about them, usually rightfully
so".
> >
> > Example: I am an English speaker in the US. I sometimes see a UK Union
> Jack flag which is meant to indicate English text. But does it? Or is it
> something more specifically about the UK that lurks in that site? What
about
> people in other countries? Do I have to know their flags too? Australia's
> first language is English - what flag should they use on their sites to
> indicate English localization?
> >
> > Example: I live in Silicon Valley where > 30% of people do not speak
> English as a first language at home (maybe > 50%! I forget so I will go
with
> the conservative value for now). So if I have content that is US locale
> based, but localized into various languages such as Chinese, Spanish,
> Vietnamese, etc., what flags shall I use? If not US, then what one to use
> again falls into the problem just mentioned - e.g. Spanish is spoken many
> places, and is not the same Spanish everywhere anymore then English is
> universal.
> >
> > And even if I somehow choose a flag, then what if the same language is
> used in a different place on the site? I surely won't be using the Taiwan
> flag everywhere there is Chinese, nor the PRC flag. Except in those 2
> countries, it is hard to see which would be appropriate without offending.
> >
> > Finally, take a look at Canada. With 2 official languages (English and
> French), what does a Maple Leaf flag say about the language of  the
material
> behind it? Nothing at all! But it might say something very serious about
> political issues you don't mean to say!
> >
> > The reason there are no generally accepted icons to represent locale is,
> quite frankly, because there are none to be had.
> >
> > It is not as though people have not put a lot of thought and hard earned
> experience into this, looking for a good way. They have. A lot of people
and
> a lot of time.
> >
> > If it is pretty you want, then make whatever you do pretty, whatever
that
> means to you. You can do that and have plain text too. Photoshop works
> wonders for that :)
> >
> > For an example of a pretty good effort, look at how yahoo.com indicates
> locales on their pages. That basic technical approach, coupled with
whatever
> UI beautification is needed for your site, is a pretty good way to go.
> >
> > As for if slashcode supports Unicode, I don't know as it has been well
> over a year since I looked at it. How complicated that would be to do is a
> matter of conjecture - there are technical, testing, and management issues
> to consider. I have done just that with closed source code that was far
more
> complex then slashcode, so I am confident it could be done. That it hasn't
> been done until now (if it hasn't been done) strikes me a a combination of
> all three factors.
> >
> > AFIK Unicode support is de rigeur for any new project that hopes to
scale.
> For any existing project that hopes to stick around with a worldwide user
> base, then the switch is going to need to be made. I think I may be
> volunteering to work with the developers to understand what the effort
level
> and tasks should be, so that people can sign onto them in a coherent
> fashion. But my experience is that this sort of conversion does need to be
> coordinated very closely with any other ongoing development, otherwise it
is
> just a fork in the code and no one wants that. Managing the codelines so
> they don't fork (or they do but they merge back together at a defined
point
> more likely) is something I can definitely bring to the table.
> >
> > >"In a perfect world, the browser would accept HTML in Unicode and
display
> > >properly from there. For folks whose users all have modern browsers,
that
> is
> > >possible. The browser will make the conversion to the right character
> > >encoding locally, or it will have Unicode fonts enabled. When there are
> > >Unicode fonts available, then you get the advantage of displaying
> multiple
> > >languages on a single page, which, frankly, is what I would expect of a
> site
> > >called "towerofbabel.com", slashcode or not :)"
> > >
> > >Well, the browser isn't the problem. It's the ability of slash to be
able
> to
> > >deal with any character set when a story is submitted or a comment
> posted.
> > >Would those problems go away as soon as slash were dealing with all
> internal
> > >processing in Unicode?
> >
> > Slash doesn't need to deal with any character set, it only needs to deal
> with one - Unicode. The modern browser should/will make conversions
to/from
> Unicode for both inbound and outbound data.
> >
> > If slash is rewritten to support Unicode instead of whatever it is now
> (ISO-8859-1 probably?), then that is all there is to  it as far as the
> database is concerned. Even templates could then be in many languages,
even
> within a template if so desired.
> >
> > In your case, you probably would not need to go to subdomains unless you
> wanted to - you could just have slash sections for each language. And if
> someone posted Chinese on the French page, so what? slash won't care so
> neither should you. Trust me you don't want a case statement for every
> codeset dependent feature in the code. Your domain name pretty much sums
up
> the reason why that is the case :)
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Barry
> >
> >
>
>
>
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